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AFancyQuestionMark posted:its true, the very concept of degrees of corruption is an imperialist fraud, after all how can having to bribe officials on a regular basis to live a normal life be any different than corporations lobbying for laws that screw people over The first one is bad, the second thing will probably cause us to extract fossil fuels until the entire planet melts, so who can say which is worse
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May 24, 2019 21:49
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from the moral mathematics of lynchings to the relationship between melanin content and intrinsic capacity for corruption...
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May 24, 2019 21:56
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Moist von Lipwig posted:What proselytizing? This is a pretty straight forward takedown of the idea that corruption is what's damaging these countries. I don’t understand the purpose of that argument, since I don’t know if anybody actually believes corruption as defined by that UN agency is a larger volume of illicit cash flows than tax evasion or w/e the gently caress.
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May 24, 2019 22:12
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That index is great, it's just a hit list of all the places oil and resource companies want the US to bomb back to the stone age. Uh I'm sure the perfect correlation is because Exxon is very concerned about corruption and its heart bleeds for the benighted lands that yearn for someone to bear the white man's burden. No doubt.
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May 24, 2019 22:13
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Squalid posted:I don’t understand the purpose of that argument, since I don’t know if anybody actually believes corruption as defined by that UN agency is a larger volume of illicit cash flows than tax evasion or w/e the gently caress. I think the point is that corruption gets way more attention than tax evasion. And that corruption gets outsized use as a cudgel for making the global south look like their problems are some kind of morality issue instead of outside exploitation doing way more damage.
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May 24, 2019 22:18
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Mentioning tax evasion in this context is a weird non sequitur. I am not sure how the lives of people in Venuzuela or other impoverished countries are supposed to be improved by the US government/other first world countries getting more tax revenue from their billionaires. Seems like the fundamental inequalities and exploitative relationships between these groups of countries wouldn't be affected at all.
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May 24, 2019 22:30
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Mentioning tax evasion in this context is a weird non sequitur. I am not sure how the lives of people in Venuzuela or other impoverished countries are supposed to be improved by the US government/other first world countries getting more tax revenue from their billionaires. Seems like the fundamental inequalities and exploitative relationships between these groups of countries wouldn't be affected at all. It's tax revenue that belongs in those countries, not the US.
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May 24, 2019 22:34
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jfood posted:from the moral mathematics of lynchings to the relationship between melanin content and intrinsic capacity for corruption... The consistent theme is murdering mestizo venezuelans for stealing.
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May 24, 2019 22:43
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I have a hard time believing that the majority of the wealth funneled through tax havens originated in impoverished countries. This is aside from the fact that any tax evasion scheme on such a massive scale has to be directly or indirectly aided by government officials at some level, which would make this a clear and particularly striking example of government corruption.
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May 24, 2019 22:44
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:I have a hard time believing that the majority of the wealth funneled through tax havens originated in impoverished countries. This is aside from the fact that any tax evasion scheme on such a massive scale has to be directly or indirectly aided by government officials at some level, which would make this a clear and particularly striking example of government corruption. incredible
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May 24, 2019 22:46
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:I have a hard time believing that the majority of the wealth funneled through tax havens originated in impoverished countries. This is aside from the fact that any tax evasion scheme on such a massive scale has to be directly or indirectly aided by government officials at some level, which would make this a clear and particularly striking example of government corruption. 
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May 24, 2019 22:49
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Mentioning tax evasion in this context is a weird non sequitur. I am not sure how the lives of people in Venuzuela or other impoverished countries are supposed to be improved by the US government/other first world countries getting more tax revenue from their billionaires. Seems like the fundamental inequalities and exploitative relationships between these groups of countries wouldn't be affected at all. tbf i think there's some logic to this argument although they way they frame it doesn't make lot of sense. Countries like Venezuela have trouble retaining capital, and a lot of wealth that these countries need end up flowing out through various channels. Of course, most of the documented examples of corruption we have from Venezuela involve government officials getting caught transferring gigantic sums of money into Swiss bank accounts so they can spend it in Miami and Spain. Corruption in places like Venezuela typically gets funneled into Europe or the US, one way or another.
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May 24, 2019 23:27
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Squalid posted:tbf i think there's some logic to this argument although they way they frame it doesn't make lot of sense. Countries like Venezuela have trouble retaining capital, and a lot of wealth that these countries need end up flowing out through various channels. Of course, most of the documented examples of corruption we have from Venezuela involve government officials getting caught transferring gigantic sums of money into Swiss bank accounts so they can spend it in Miami and Spain. Corruption in places like Venezuela typically gets funneled into Europe or the US, one way or another. This is true but I don't really understand how a US crackdown on US billionaires' offshore tax havens would do much to change Venezuelan corruption.
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May 24, 2019 23:38
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:I have a hard time believing that the majority of the wealth funneled through tax havens originated in impoverished countries. This is aside from the fact that any tax evasion scheme on such a massive scale has to be directly or indirectly aided by government officials at some level, which would make this a clear and particularly striking example of government corruption. The funny thing here is that you just killed your own argument but are too dumb to realize it.
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May 24, 2019 23:49
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Educate me, then.
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May 25, 2019 00:09
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Main Paineframe posted:Rather than blame, though, I'd prefer to talk about solutions. And even if there's no corruption forever, Venezuela isn't getting out of this hole as long as they're on America's shitlist. Their dependence on global markets made them vulnerable to begin with, and with their production and exports in decline, they won't easily recover even if the US gives up on its program of economic warfare against Venezuela. They've been pushed into a situation where they likely can't pull their economy back together without assistance and patronage from a major power, and the major power that put them into that situation is going to attach plenty of strings to any aid that gets given. This is what I was thinking when listening to this recent David Harvey video: Accumulation by Dispossession https://youtu.be/BRTUhoNORB4
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May 25, 2019 01:32
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Squalid posted:I don’t understand the purpose of that argument, since I don’t know if anybody actually believes corruption as defined by that UN agency is a larger volume of illicit cash flows than tax evasion or w/e the gently caress. It's repeatedly brought up with the implication that it is the cause of the plight of poorer countries (like in this case Venezuela). It also limits the definition of an inherently broad term ("corruption") to things that, conveniently, aren't common in nations like the US (even if net unethical wealth extraction is at least as high in total). In the process it enables the government (or NGOs or whatever)to easily form arguments about how (insert county)'s leadership needs to be replaced because they're so corrupt and causing their country's plight through their corruption. AFancyQuestionMark posted:I have a hard time believing that the majority of the wealth funneled through tax havens originated in impoverished countries. This is aside from the fact that any tax evasion scheme on such a massive scale has to be directly or indirectly aided by government officials at some level, which would make this a clear and particularly striking example of government corruption. The podcast people were referencing earlier explains all of this in detail. This article also discusses it: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries Basically the main culprit is the World Trade Organization (and obviously the governments of powerful countries like the US, who push for these policies), which requires customs officials to accept invoiced prices at face value (so even if they see something that is clearly "off" they can't do anything about it).
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May 25, 2019 02:24
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Ytlaya posted:The podcast people were referencing earlier explains all of this in detail. This article also discusses it: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries This is a great example of the argument the Citations Needed podcast puts forward, thanks for linking it. Everyone should listen to the podcast too.
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May 25, 2019 02:31
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Labradoodle posted:I can't keep up with how fast prices rise in Venezuela, nor do I want to for my mental health. However, it was already true when I last was in the country almost a year and a half ago the minimum wage wasn't enough to feed a single person during an entire month. People who depend entirely on a salary are hosed so everyone tries to do whatever they can to bring in some extra income. My mother's a hairdresser at a nice place and she wouldn't be able to feed herself if I didn't send money home. i am an extremely dumb and uneducated person but this is different from the united states how?
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May 25, 2019 05:24
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Well, for one thing, the majority of Americans aren't malnourished.
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May 25, 2019 05:59
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IDONTPOST posted:i am an extremely dumb and uneducated person but this is different from the united states how? Most workers in Venezuela make minimum wage; it’s closer to average income than equivalent to American minimum wage. Americans on minimum wage can go to a food bank or soup kitchen, Venezuelans on minimum wage have to hustle, get money from relatives abroad, literally dig through trash, or forage in the wilderness for mangos and whatever, in order to survive. People trying to say Venezuelan problems are equivalent to US problems are ?????? Like just look at Blue Nation’s vidéo 3 or 4 pages back about gasoline queues. She’s Venezuelan and lives in Venezuela. Yes the US and all countries in the world have social issues. No they are not all equal in severity and something something glass houses.
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May 25, 2019 09:02
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:Well, for one thing, the majority of Americans aren't malnourished. The US has an obesity rate of like 30%. In conjunction with huge levels of food insecurity in the US, it's pretty loving close.
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May 25, 2019 12:02
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IDONTPOST posted:i am an extremely dumb and uneducated person but this is different from the united states how? It's kinda disgusting when Americans pretend they have it worse than literally anybody else in the world, because they need to be special and the best in everything, even in bad things.
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May 25, 2019 12:08
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steinrokkan posted:It's kinda disgusting when Americans pretend they have it worse than literally anybody else in the world, because they need to be special and the best in everything, even in bad things. It's not that Americans have it worse, it's that there are colonised nations existing within the US who face similar violence to other colonised nations.
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May 25, 2019 12:13
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Saladman posted:Most workers in Venezuela make minimum wage; it’s closer to average income than equivalent to American minimum wage. Americans on minimum wage can go to a food bank or soup kitchen, Venezuelans on minimum wage have to hustle, get money from relatives abroad, literally dig through trash, or forage in the wilderness for mangos and whatever, in order to survive. Are you honestly telling me that in Venezuela poor people cant get food stamps like in the USA and can't go to a food bank if needed for help? If people were really only able to buy 5 or 6 bags of beans and rice a month, people would be dropping weight like mad.
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May 25, 2019 13:30
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536 posted:Are you honestly telling me that in Venezuela poor people cant get food stamps like in the USA and can't go to a food bank if needed for help? They have - Caritas estimates the average Venezuelan has lost ten kilos. It's also a probable reason for the lack of organised civil unrest - starvation makes you lethargic and unmotivated. IIRC, a bunch of revolutions were triggered by a sudden increase in living standards, as people now had more energy, more time on their hands, and a bit of hope that life could be better.
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May 25, 2019 13:39
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Darth Walrus posted:They have - Caritas estimates the average Venezuelan has lost ten kilos. It's also a probable reason for the lack of organised civil unrest - starvation makes you lethargic and unmotivated. IIRC, a bunch of revolutions were triggered by a sudden increase in living standards, as people now had more energy, more time on their hands, and a bit of hope that life could be better. Kinda surprising to see people attending guaifo and maduro events then. E: especially the marches in the street
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May 25, 2019 13:54
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Corky Romanovsky posted:Kinda surprising to see people attending guaifo and maduro events then. Attending events requires a bit less energy and motivation than charging police barricades, let alone any more advanced forms of organised violence. There is a fair amount of disorganised violence in VZ, though - the murder rate remains ridiculously huge, and starvation has fuelled extensive looting. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 14:03 on May 25, 2019 |
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May 25, 2019 14:00
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Darth Walrus posted:They have - Caritas estimates the average Venezuelan has lost ten kilos. It's also a probable reason for the lack of organised civil unrest - starvation makes you lethargic and unmotivated. IIRC, a bunch of revolutions were triggered by a sudden increase in living standards, as people now had more energy, more time on their hands, and a bit of hope that life could be better. If things were really this bad, wouldnt we have seen giant marches of anti-maduro people, crowding the streets? Seems like a pretty loving big deal when you can't even get enough food to eat. Thats like the first step of a civilized country is enough food to go around.
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May 25, 2019 14:17
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536 posted:If things were really this bad, wouldnt we have seen giant marches of anti-maduro people, crowding the streets? Seems like a pretty loving big deal when you can't even get enough food to eat. Thats like the first step of a civilized country is enough food to go around. Giant marches don't directly get them what they want - they're either fleeing the country (same number and population percentage of refugees as Yemen, remember?) or looting it for food instead. See my above-linked article for details. Organised uprisings require infrastructure and planning that's much easier to create when you're well-fed, well-funded, and have free time on your hands. An upsurge in crime and refugees is more common when you don't have that. Seriously, read through the Human Rights Watch report on the current crisis. It's not fun. That said, we did actually see massive protests in Venezuela quite recently, with the January 23 ones (scroll down for aerial photos) being a particular high-point. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 15:01 on May 25, 2019 |
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May 25, 2019 14:46
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I didn't see any sources cited in that link posted earlier about weight loss or whatever. So I decided to go looking. I can't claim what I found is more reliable of a source, but can't say it is worse either. A random bakery in a smaller town:  E: Glad she is getting to enjoy a meal out:  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 25, 2019 15:25
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536 posted:If things were really this bad, wouldnt we have seen giant marches of anti-maduro people, crowding the streets? Seems like a pretty loving big deal when you can't even get enough food to eat. Thats like the first step of a civilized country is enough food to go around. Things are that bad and you’ve had literally millions of people protesting in the streets, and leaving the country, for 2-3 years. Venezuela is rapidly becoming a non-civilized country of fiefdoms. It’s not yet Somalia but it’s also incredibly far from being comparable to the plight of the working poor in the US
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May 25, 2019 15:27
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I’m not well versed on the food shortages, however looking up bakery reviews on Google is not much more convincing than Brown Moses staring at Google Maps and Twitter and using it to justify murdering all the Alawites. I’m sure there are food shortages, and I’m sure that the US, Colombia and Brazil isolating Venezuela isn’t helping at all.
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May 25, 2019 15:31
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Darth Walrus posted:
Human Rights Watch is a regime change outlet funded entirely by western billionaires. Their posted IRS 990s all skip through Schedule B - Schedule of Contributors despite being an organization required to complete one, I wonder why 🤔🤔🤔 In addition, let's take a look at their board of directors to see if there might be a conflict of interest between western finance capital and being "human rights defenders:"  Among them, we have diverse representation, such as the chief executives of several private equity funds (Independent Franchise Partners, LLP/American Securities LLC}, a couple of venture capitalists (the wife of the Swedish guy who made Kazaa and Skype), some big shot corporate lawyers, Latin American compradors (Jorge Castañeda - Vincente Fox's foreign minister), a McKinsey and Co. director, and other exceptionally wealthy people who don't have a real job like the rest of us. When I think of strident defense of human rights, I think this group of aristocrats. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 25, 2019 15:33
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Kind of like how Center for American Progress takes money from the Kochs and the Saudis, you have to look past the name to see how much an organization is commuted to their mission statement.
Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 15:59 on May 25, 2019 |
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May 25, 2019 15:53
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Corky Romanovsky posted:I didn't see any sources cited in that link posted earlier about weight loss or whatever. So I decided to go looking. I can't claim what I found is more reliable of a source, but can't say it is worse either. Caritas is a Catholic international relief charity who operate extensively in and around Venezuela. They are the primary source on that number. You can probably message them to see how exactly they came to it, if you actually want to know stuff rather than shitposting about a major humanitarian crisis.
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May 25, 2019 15:54
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Human Rights Watch is a regime change outlet funded entirely by western billionaires. Their posted IRS 990s all skip through Schedule B - Schedule of Contributors despite being an organization required to complete one, I wonder why 🤔🤔🤔 Uh huh, and that's why they've got in trouble with Egypt's Sisi government and Israel's Likud, and why Western imperialists keep screaming at them for being too soft on Muslims. There's a wonderful 2010 article in the Times about how they are "credulous of civilian witnesses in places like Gaza and Afghanistan" but "skeptical of anyone in a uniform." Their biggest current funder appears to be George Soros, and while you can rightfully raise an eyebrow about billionaire liberal businessmen, it's safe to say he's not exactly au fait with the present US State Department.
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May 25, 2019 16:09
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Darth Walrus posted:Uh huh, and that's why they've got in trouble with Egypt's Sisi government and Israel's Likud, The idea that establishment business internationalism is hated by far right nazis like Likud and strongmen isn't all that controversial. Darth Walrus posted:Their biggest current funder appears to be George Soros, and while you can rightfully raise an eyebrow about billionaire liberal businessmen, it's safe to say he's not exactly au fait with the present US State Department. Soros and by extension OSF astroturfing will persist long after Trump is out of office. Unless Trump and co. are able to seize power permanently American "democracy" is more or less captive to long term lobbies and special interests like Soros. The fact that the entire western human rights - NGO establishment is leaning on Venezuela and it refuses to crack just goes to show how much things have changed since the Cold War.
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May 25, 2019 16:24
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:The US has an obesity rate of like 30%. In conjunction with huge levels of food insecurity in the US, it's pretty loving close. The obese are quite literal the opposite of being malnourished as is the overweight. Nearly 2/3 of the Americans fall into those categories. To attempt to say the fat of the rich world are just the same as the starving of the colonized world, that is quite of a take, as they say.
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May 25, 2019 16:35
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:The idea that establishment business internationalism is hated by far right nazis like Likud and strongmen isn't all that controversial. As far as I can tell, the Maduro government 'refusing to crack' is a severe mischaracterisation that implies they have a lot more control of the country than they do. It's more that they're the largest of several criminal cartels who are frantically asset-stripping the country - liberal reformers can't lean on anyone because no individual faction has sufficient enthusiasm and authority to enact country-wide change when they can just run their own little grifts. This is exactly the conclusion another Soros outfit came to, and it also helps explain Bolton and Abrams's lack of success with their usual tactics (which may be monstrous, but usually at least get them a decent number of recruits) despite the central government's advanced state of collapse.
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May 25, 2019 16:36
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