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pdxjohan posted:Eu1, eu2, eu3, eu4, hoi1,2,3, vicky 1,2, ck1, basically every single game we made before ck2 was my designs. Honestly tho, I would think that a single supposed failure wouldn't be the end of being a game, whatever. You said that the game fitted your vision and you just gotta wonder why the critics liked it but then a buncha players didn't
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May 26, 2019 14:05
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Fuligin posted:I think a lot of it works quite well and it has some good ideas, but the game does a terrible job of pushing back once you start snowballing (which is weird, that's like paradox's 'thing'), the UI is glaringly deficient, and they should really just go balls in on characters and their interactions. 'Autonomous personalities within your country' is Pdox's best ever idea but for some reason they insist on limiting it to CK, as if individuals were irrelevant to all other periods of history EUIV got me into Paradox games after getting bored with Civilization 5 in the early 2010s, and CK2 has kept my attention ever since. I’ll probably overtake EUIV in hours on CK2 within the next couple weeks. The character traits and interactions are the bread and butter of these games imo. The real-time war stuff is just something that’s expected of this genre; it’s the characters that set it apart. That’s partly why I didn’t get Imperator. I heard there was going to be a major DLC improving character interactions, so I thought I’d wait to see how that turns out. Hell after almost 500 hours in CK2 I still haven’t played as a republic or Muslim so I’ve got all the time in the world to wait.
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May 26, 2019 14:14
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pdxjohan posted:Eu1, eu2, eu3, eu4, hoi1,2,3, vicky 1,2, ck1, basically every single game we made before ck2 was my designs. I look forward to seeing where you go with Imperator in future patches. Stellaris has shown that you guys don't shy away from overhauling or throwing out mechanics that you can't make work so I'm certain it's possible to resolve everything that people have complained about in time. For me it's not that any of the aspects are badly designed, it's just that many are too shallow to be much fun. That depth can be added in future patches - but whether you can afford releases to work that way when, fairly or unfairly, they're compared to more mature titles like EU4 from day one is another question. Have you guys ever considered doing early access for your new titles? I feel like it might help both with ironing out these issues and managing player expectations at the same time.
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May 26, 2019 14:20
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pdxjohan posted:
Ok but first make Imperator good 
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May 26, 2019 14:23
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pdxjohan posted:Ironically.. the pops and politics model in v2 was 100% my design and code. Does that mean we have you to blame for "anarcho-liberals"?  In more seriousness, I haven't played Imperator, but the impression I got from your post-release dev diary and from complaints I've heard from people who did play it is that what you guys did was take EU:Rome and used it as the basic building block. And that's perfectly in line with what Paradox has been doing for almost every release, but I think that people were expecting something more ambitious than that.
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May 26, 2019 14:32
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Raskolnikov38 posted:leave the ancients behind, vicky3 when
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May 26, 2019 14:35
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pdxjohan posted:Eu1, eu2, eu3, eu4, hoi1,2,3, vicky 1,2, ck1, basically every single game we made before ck2 was my designs. Here's my opinion for what it's worth. Imperator is a game with a lot of promise in the future and it's a much more impressive iteration over EU:Rome than EU4/CK2 were over EU3/CK1. The problem with that is that EU3/CK1 were good games and EU:Rome wasn't quite there, so the iteration is on a much shakier foundation. Some of it has to do with the name too I think. Imperator: Rome felt more like the game was meant to be a new franchise based on EUIV/CK2/HOI4/Stellaris design philosophies that just happened to be based in Rome. What we currently have feels more like Europa Universalis: Rome 2, the sequel to a game that I doubt was enjoyed nearly as much as most of the earlier grand strategy games you guys developed. I have full faith that the game will improve significantly over time and start competing directly with the rest of your current games (assuming it's not Sengoku/March of the Eagles'd), but I do think it needs to move away from the EU: Rome roots.
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May 26, 2019 14:45
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pdxjohan posted:
The pops model in v2 is amazing and should make a comeback. Having war depopulate your military/ officers and drive emigration is awesome. It also really gives a sense of building up your nation's wealth to promote pop's and stuff. The economy system was wonky with how easy it is to crash the world economy. But multiplayer is a blast when you get a couple great powers going on a trade war to buy all the iron/rubber/clippers to keep other people from building their military up. Or buying up all the middle class needs to demote another country's pops.
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May 26, 2019 14:50
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Yeah, it's not that Imperator Rome is a bad game, it's just that we've had so many good games with good content in them that we are probably a bit spoiled by you. I just think this game just needs more time to mature into a proper Paradox title like all the others. twig1919 posted:The pops model in v2 is amazing and should make a comeback. Having war depopulate your military/ officers and drive emigration is awesome. Hell yes, V2 was a wonderful game, I actually really like playing it (even though i'm kinda bad at it at times) and would love to see more ideas loaned from it, the technology and invention system was great as well since it felt you actually got significantly stronger once you start teching up which is great.
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May 26, 2019 14:57
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Beamed posted:This is an odd take. A game which is so uncompelling that when people see a new patch they say "Well, okay, I didn't want to play this anyway" is.. not a game that will be fixed by that patch. That's a weird interpretation. I played about 20 hours of Imperator at launch, and enjoyed my time, but the game is definitely unfinished and hearing about a big patch coming out so soon just made me go "why bother". I do want to play this game, but if there's going to be a significant improvement to it (supposedly) less than a month away then yea, of course I'd wait. The core game is a lot of fun, it's just very shallow and lacking in flavour. I definitely think it can be salvaged with patches, but it's a bit of a long road. For what it's worth I think Imperator is better/more fun than Stellaris was at release. I actually did things and there was drama during my playtime. With Stellaris 1.0 I just remember waiting ages for influence to sloooowly fill up so I could finally claim a system with +3m/+2e...
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May 26, 2019 15:02
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:EUIV got me into Paradox games after getting bored with Civilization 5 in the early 2010s, and CK2 has kept my attention ever since. I’ll probably overtake EUIV in hours on CK2 within the next couple weeks. The character traits and interactions are the bread and butter of these games imo. The real-time war stuff is just something that’s expected of this genre; it’s the characters that set it apart. I think you're on to something. I stopped playing EUIV after about 30 hours, it just wasn't the right game for me. But I have more than 1000 hours in CK2, and still play Stellaris every time a new DLC comes out. I'm still nowhere finished with CK2 playthroughs, between shattered worlds, animal kingdoms, and just playing some characters that I didn't get to until now. The new bloodline system really helps, because there are suddenly dozens of interesting characters that the game marks as worth playing (either the founders of the bloodlines themselves, or their descendants). And now we get a new start date. And it's not even earlier, but instead between the Old Gods and the 1066 start, with the Muslim world at it's most fractured. I seem to be in the minority to enjoy playing Muslims, and this start date is especially great. Playing the Fatimid Caliphate from it's humble start in Tunisia? Sign me the gently caress up! Offering me several more interesting Muslim starting characters? Yes, please! Not to mention the new characters to explore in the other parts of the world. This update alone will probably be worth at least 100 additional hours, if not more. So for me there's really no reason to buy Imperator. It doesn't help that it seems to be 80% EUIV, and only 20% CK2, which is far too much of the main Paradox title that I never enjoyed. But even if they improve the character aspect of the game, I don't think I'd be tempted to play it instead of CK2, or Stellaris if I want to paint the map.
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May 26, 2019 15:27
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pdxjohan posted:Eu1, eu2, eu3, eu4, hoi1,2,3, vicky 1,2, ck1, basically every single game we made before ck2 was my designs. The way I see it, Imperator isn't fundamentally flawed or anything. Most of the areas I find it lacking in aren't necessarily in the design. I think the main thing working against it though is that it is a very familiar design. Like, we've played this game before. Many of us very recently. I'm not talking about EU:Rome, but EU4, obviously, with bits and pieces of other games thrown in. It's clear there was a lot of new design work done as well, and there are some good systems there, but it's all in an extremely familiar frame. While Stellaris, CK2, and HoI4 give you what feel like completely unique experiences, Imperator gives you what feels like EU4 plus CK2 with a twist. My totally uneducated and unqualified speculation is that the concurrent players number for Imperator is low not because it's some dreadful game that sucks to play (because it's not, imo), but because people can get very similar experiences in games that have had much more content added to them in DLCs. This is one of the reasons I think so many negative steam reviews accused paradox of withholding features to add as DLC. I strongly disagree with those criticisms of the business model, but they're probably sourced from a sense of "I've played a version of this already with more stuff, so why is this here without that stuff?" The obvious way to address that concern might be to just add more stuff, but that in my opinion that would fail to address the core underlying issue. I think Imperator has a lot of good design (I like the trade good system, trying to breed uber dynasties is fun, and I still enjoy good old fashioned map painting), and there are some areas I like less (the tactics system could use less guesswork and more actual tactics), but the main thing that sticks out to me about the game is its lack of identity. I think it's totally possible for Imperator to stage a comeback and recover from its sagging player counts, but I think to do so, it needs to forge a unique identity for itself that sets itself apart from the other Paradox games, beyond the era its set in. Stuff like balance changes and general design improvements are going to help, but they're not as important to me as the identity issue. I know, I know. "Make it uniquer!" is the most bullshit criticism of a game you can come up with. Sorry. :p Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 22:03 on May 26, 2019 |
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May 26, 2019 15:28
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TorakFade posted:Ok but first make Imperator good Actually it's already good 
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May 26, 2019 15:36
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Personally I just want the UI to be cleaned up or even redone entirely. Its the number one stumbling block for me playing the game right now.
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May 26, 2019 15:36
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I got an email this morning promoting PDXcon, with "Paradox will debut a brand new grand strategy game". Hmmm....
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May 26, 2019 17:25
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Moktaro posted:I got an email this morning promoting PDXcon, with "Paradox will debut a brand new grand strategy game". Vicky3 is the Prince That Was Promised. Wiz has been on some secret project so I'm guessing that's what they'll be debuting. And re: Imperator, I didn't intend to come across as super hostile or anything. It's disappointing/frustrating that a game with a pretty neat setup just...doesn't seem to work for a lot of people. I'm hopeful that after some rework it'll rise from the ashes like Stellaris did. Then again, if the goal was EU:Rome 2 and nothing more than I would say it's probably accomplished that.
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May 26, 2019 17:52
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Obviously the secret project getting announced this year is Victorian Secrets, that's why they had to pull Wiz specifically to work on it.
Crazycryodude fucked around with this message at 18:10 on May 26, 2019 |
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May 26, 2019 18:06
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Beamed posted:This is an odd take. A game which is so uncompelling that when people see a new patch they say "Well, okay, I didn't want to play this anyway" is.. not a game that will be fixed by that patch. I basically only play Paradox games immediately after a new release / patch because the new content is invariably broken in some way and once you know how to win the game it stops being fun. I was hoping that the wildly asymmetrical starts in Imperator would help with this but mostly they just make the gameplay slower rather than more difficult because the AI is a complete pussy and only declares on you when you're already involved in a bunch of wars (also all of the big states are barely able to survive due to culture and religion problems)
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May 26, 2019 18:49
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Moktaro posted:I got an email this morning promoting PDXcon, with "Paradox will debut a brand new grand strategy game". Imperator 2 confirmed
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May 26, 2019 19:01
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Crazycryodude posted:Obviously the secret project getting announced this year is Victorian Secrets, that's why they had to pull Wiz specifically to work on it. A paradox style game where you play as a shopkeep selling only the latest fashion to victorian-era aristocracy and have to balance relations between the various nobles and other businesses while staying ahead of changing dress moods is now in my head. OriginalIdeaDoNotSteal.
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May 26, 2019 19:22
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Rynoto posted:A paradox style game where you play as a shopkeep selling only the latest fashion to victorian-era aristocracy and have to balance relations between the various nobles and other businesses while staying ahead of changing dress moods is now in my head. OriginalIdeaDoNotSteal. Wiz pls make this a mini game in Victorian Secrets, I need this now. Dating Maria Theresa is not enough I also need to decide on her outfit.
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May 26, 2019 19:27
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I'd say a less spoken element of Imperator's problems is that unless you're somewhat acquainted with the time period, only 4 or 5 nations on the map really even mean anything to most people - Rome and Carthage being the two obvious ones. Add into that most of the content is for Rome and most of it simply makes Rome a, to be fair, somewhat wonderful experience in comp stomping, it suffers a bit from feeling quite detached from most of the world, which also ends up not really offering much of a challenge either. (Though the latter is just a matter of AI)
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May 27, 2019 04:26
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Rome is far from the most interesting or flavorful country on the map. Imperator is misnamed.
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May 27, 2019 04:32
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I wonder if Imperator would benefit from an EU4 style mission tree system? Rome does a similar thing with events but it doesn't really show up anywhere else and it feels sorta hamfisted.
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May 27, 2019 04:32
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AnEdgelord posted:I wonder if Imperator would benefit from an EU4 style mission tree system? Rome does a similar thing with events but it doesn't really show up anywhere else and it feels sorta hamfisted. This is a solid idea in theory but EU4's missions actually manage to be a net negative now since many of the sets are so loving brokenly OP and essentially just serve to make it easier for the player to win the game.
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May 27, 2019 05:41
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zhuge liang posted:Rome is far from the most interesting or flavorful country on the map. Imperator is misnamed. the name "Imperator Rome" doesn't describe its Rome focus?
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May 27, 2019 05:41
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Deceitful Penguin posted:you just gotta wonder why the critics liked it but then a buncha players didn't 
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May 27, 2019 07:26
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Strudel Man posted:Game critics like everything. Game critics who dump on games are a lot less likely to get pre-releases from other studios which means less early reviews. Less early reviews is less profit so they're pretty well pushed to never be too negative.
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May 27, 2019 07:47
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they're not "critics", they're "free advertisers"
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May 27, 2019 07:49
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RabidWeasel posted:This is a solid idea in theory but EU4's missions actually manage to be a net negative now since many of the sets are so loving brokenly OP and essentially just serve to make it easier for the player to win the game. I enjoy them because it lets me stop make claims early on, which is A++, as making claims suck.
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May 27, 2019 08:59
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Koorisch posted:Hell yes, V2 was a wonderful game, I actually really like playing it (even though i'm kinda bad at it at times) and would love to see more ideas loaned from it, the technology and invention system was great as well since it felt you actually got significantly stronger once you start teching up which is great. Seriously, it’s amazing to me how no other grand strategy/4X game has done this. Military units are always some weird abstraction of “production” so you can have the Civilization equivalent of WW1 and yet somehow your population just keeps going up. The pops and the way the economic system interacts with them is the reason why I love V2 so much despite it suffering from a lot of “old Paradox” jank.
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May 27, 2019 16:57
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The fact that full mobilization is such a huge deal is something that I haven't really seen done well anywhere else. Like, even in hoi, going to a full war footing just doesn't feel as impactful.
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May 27, 2019 17:06
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I love seeing my income rise because some idiots went to war and all the small arms factories my capitalists kept making are finally turning a profit
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May 27, 2019 17:08
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Seriously, it’s amazing to me how no other grand strategy/4X game has done this. Military units are always some weird abstraction of “production” so you can have the Civilization equivalent of WW1 and yet somehow your population just keeps going up. The pops and the way the economic system interacts with them is the reason why I love V2 so much despite it suffering from a lot of “old Paradox” jank. I think it is because no other game has actually tied a population representation system with an actual economy and tried to keep consistency from there, like with military mobilization, goods being demanded and produced in a sort-of autonomous way, etc. Then there is the political aspect of your population, through ideology, consciousness and militancy, which is a decent enough abstraction to make it engaging. However, if there is to be another game with that kind of focus, I wouldn't tie the Victoria anchor on its neck, exactly to allow more experimentation and development towards different stuff. For example, a thing that always bothered me in Vicky 1 and 2 is that South American nations are much larger than European nations with plenty of resource variety, yet Belgium has much more means to develop its industry than Colombia (which has literally the largest coal mine in the world) because of the resource-per-province model, an abstraction that is counterproductive to a socioeconomic game. And Victoria has a lot of these little things that are part and parcel of the process of "finding the game", so to speak, and there is absolutely no fault on that. But one thing that makes V3 (or whatever) so appealing is that after all these years the studio has improved a fuckton and their engines as well, and the chances to improve on the charm rather than the jank are looking much better than ever previously.
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May 27, 2019 17:37
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Vichan posted:aRRRRRRmeniakon. I asked a couple of questions about this / other answers. 1. Nikephoros Phokas is landed. 2. John Tsimizkes is in the game, but not landed since he is like 12 in the game start. So they didn't give him a duchy like Alexios in 1066. 3. Romanos Lekapenos is Emperor 4. Constantine VII has a strong claim to the throne and traits that make him pretty likely to take power when Lekapenos dies, or faction installed. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 17:52 on May 27, 2019 |
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May 27, 2019 17:49
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Well if it's not Victoria 3 like that article this morning said, I don't know what the gently caress they could be possibly trying to release. Whatever it is it will be barebones as hell and require years of updates before it's playable.
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May 27, 2019 17:53
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Well if it's not Victoria 3 like that article this morning said, I don't know what the gently caress they could be possibly trying to release. East vs West
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May 27, 2019 18:00
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Victoria's secret obviously
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May 27, 2019 18:03
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dead gay comedy forums posted:For example, a thing that always bothered me in Vicky 1 and 2 is that South American nations are much larger than European nations with plenty of resource variety, yet Belgium has much more means to develop its industry than Colombia (which has literally the largest coal mine in the world) because of the resource-per-province model, an abstraction that is counterproductive to a socioeconomic game. Would be really cool if every region had an appropriate potential, given the known (available with period tech) resources in a region, even if actually reaching that potential might be super difficult. Same for poo poo like immigration - it's fine if the US gets the majority of immigration in a game where things play out relatively similarly, but if the player has a democratic Gran Colombia with a similar desire to fill the country up then it should be getting a ton of immigrants from Catholic/Southern Europe. Which might then weaken the growth of US industries, skewing the balance of power vis-a-vis slavery if that was modelled in a less railroady fashion.
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May 27, 2019 18:09
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Senor Dog posted:I love seeing my income rise because some idiots went to war and all the small arms factories my capitalists kept making are finally turning a profit Military-Industrial-Complex.txt The black box that was V2's economic system was so glorious and yet so flawed that I wonder if we'll ever be able to get a glimpse at its inner workings.
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May 27, 2019 18:18
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