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What do the orcs in LOTR represent anyway? Evil guys that look different and want to destroy everything for their evil god. I wonder what it means.
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May 28, 2019 05:53
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Davos believes the Mother saved him after Blackwater and I believe Davos.
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May 28, 2019 06:01
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The Father didn't save his children.
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May 28, 2019 06:21
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Katt posted:In the Ender's Game universe there's peace in the Middle East because Muslims finally learned to abandon terrorism. That's it. The entirety of Islam and the Arabic people sifted down to "were terrorists. Now no longer are so things are great" No mention of centuries of Western exploitation or anything. I know I shouldn't but I'm going to nitpick this one specific part of an otherwise spot on criticism of Ender's Game. The middle east isn't hosed up because of centuries of Western exploitation, it's hosed up because of one, or in some places two centuries of western exploitation. It's honestly shocking how thoroughly western imperialism tore up the whole region.
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May 28, 2019 08:18
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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PittTheElder posted:I know I shouldn't but I'm going to nitpick this one specific part of an otherwise spot on criticism of Ender's Game. The middle east isn't hosed up because of centuries of Western exploitation, it's hosed up because of one, or in some places two centuries of western exploitation. It's honestly shocking how thoroughly western imperialism tore up the whole region. To be fair the middle east was getting crusaded for a couple of centuries then finding a route to the "New World" was like okay time to go try to gently caress over someone else.
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May 28, 2019 08:27
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pseudanonymous posted:To be fair the middle east was getting crusaded for a couple of centuries then finding a route to the "New World" was like okay time to go try to gently caress over someone else. The middle east was also not helped by Genghis Khan attacking from the other direction and burning multiple cities to the ground, including Baghdad. That area can't catch a break, it seems.
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May 28, 2019 10:14
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Plucky Brit posted:The middle east was also not helped by Genghis Khan attacking from the other direction and burning multiple cities to the ground, including Baghdad. If only they’d benefited from unbroken centuries of peace like Europe and east Asia they might have turned out ok.
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May 28, 2019 11:25
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I think the Essos religions (and even the Drowned God) were capable of very minor magic before the dragons, but absolutely nothing on the scale of what they could do from ACOK on. Melisandre was capable of glamoring, clearly, or else Stannis would never have brought her into his service. But they weren’t capable of big time miracles such that it would lead to masses of people being swayed away from the Seven, yet. The Faith of the Seven is also a major political power that’s controlled by the Crown, remember the king has power to appoint the High Septon and that’s a big deal - there’s no way the kingdom would want to get rid of that system, so there’s a lot of inertia on the side of the Seven. Every town and holdfast has a septon, it’s baked into everyday life, etc etc There are currently only two Red Priests doing anything of note in Westeros, one who’s a folk legend, and the other is a foreigner who serves an unpopular pretender king. And they’ve had powers for what, a year? Give it time, if it happens. I like the theory there are no gods at all, but there is blood magic. All magic requires some sort of sacrifice, and if it’s given up you can make miracles happen. Melisandre sucks some of Stannis’ life essence for the shadow baby, Daenerys sacrifices Mirri Maz Duur, etc. It doesn’t matter which god you’re praying to, you’re all tapping into the same magic essence, or what have you.
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May 28, 2019 13:05
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Dr. Video Games 0112 posted:What do the orcs in LOTR represent anyway? Evil guys that look different and want to destroy everything for their evil god. I wonder what it means. bearing in mind when and where tolkien did his military service, the behavior and vocabulary of the orcs (especially the Uruk Hai in Two Towers) is ripped directly from the British imperial army he served in during WWI, who were nicknamed the 'bloody-backs' well into the late 19th century from their officers' liberal use of flogging as a disciplinary measure in the earliest version of the Fall of Gondolin, written while he was convalescing from the bullet wound that took him out early at the Somme, he described the orcs attacking with big fuming iron war-machines; the only side of WWI mass-producing tanks was the Entente, specifically the British who invented the damned things. There is plenty of orientalizing racism in the descriptions of human cultures bound to Sauron's service, though even those are paired with observations like The Two Towers posted:It was Sam's first view of a battle of Men against Men, and he did not like it much. He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man's name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace-all in a flash of thought which was quickly driven from his mind. So, to answer your initial (rhetorical) question, I'd say the orcs in LOTR represent/are the physical agents of industrialized imperialism
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May 28, 2019 13:34
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Mike N Eich posted:I like the theory there are no gods at all, but there is blood magic. All magic requires some sort of sacrifice, and if it’s given up you can make miracles happen. Melisandre sucks some of Stannis’ life essence for the shadow baby, Daenerys sacrifices Mirri Maz Duur, etc. It doesn’t matter which god you’re praying to, you’re all tapping into the same magic essence, or what have you. Even if there is a Lord of Light we'll never know for sure, which is how it should be. One of the reasons magic mostly works in ASOIF is it's mysterious. Lotr has the same deal going where the magic that is going on is rarely explained and the world isn't over saturated with its presence. I always figured magic was in some way tied to the Others/Dragons since it has been strongest since their return and will probably be weaker again once they die off.
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May 28, 2019 15:00
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emanresu tnuocca posted:He shapeshifts in the third one. I just finished reading this story and never caught where Bloodraven shapeshifted/glamoured as another character. Can someone spell this out for me?
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May 28, 2019 15:53
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chaosapiant posted:I just finished reading this story and never caught where Bloodraven shapeshifted/glamoured as another character. Can someone spell this out for me? I read it a while ago, there's a knight dunk and egg run into before the tournament, maybe named Plumm?, who towards the end of the story tells Dunk where Egg is being held, that's Bloodraven.
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May 28, 2019 16:04
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Maynard Plumm was Bloodraven.
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May 28, 2019 16:05
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Oh ok, I remember Plumm but didn’t remember him being outed as Bloodraven. That’s dope!
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May 28, 2019 16:22
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Plucky Brit posted:The middle east was also not helped by Genghis Khan attacking from the other direction and burning multiple cities to the ground, including Baghdad. The Mongol invasion didn't set things back as thoroughly as is often believed, Baghdhad and Iraq had already kind of fallen by the wayside in the 10th century with the breakup of the Abbasid Empire with war and turmoil doing great damage to its agriculture and resulting in a significant loss of population and wealth. Iran and Central Asia were harder hit by the Mongols really in that they weren't backwaters and suffered greatly, but also had recovered and were flourishing under Mongol and successor rule a generation after. The negative impact of the Crusades as far as putting an end to an Islamic golden age are also greatly overstated, given that they happened at a time of political fragmentation in the Islamic World and were very limited as regards the region they impacted. The Islamic World was doing fine, even great, in the Late Middle Ages and Early Modern period, the notion that the Crusades and Mongols killed the dynamism, prosperity and expansion of Islamic civilization is pretty much wrong.
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May 28, 2019 16:28
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Any good funny stuff from that documentary I will never watch? I've seen a few clips of actors looking pissed at the table reads lmfao
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May 28, 2019 16:33
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Mike N Eich posted:I like the theory there are no gods at all, but there is blood magic. All magic requires some sort of sacrifice, and if it’s given up you can make miracles happen. Melisandre sucks some of Stannis’ life essence for the shadow baby, Daenerys sacrifices Mirri Maz Duur, etc. It doesn’t matter which god you’re praying to, you’re all tapping into the same magic essence, or what have you. I don't recall any explicit statements that Melisandre and Stannis were banging until ADWD when Melisandre notes to herself that her bed rarely saw any use since Stannis went to Winterfell - it's the same passage where we discover that she doesn't need to sleep. Or did I miss it? Melisandre not needing sleep is creepy as all hell.
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May 28, 2019 17:39
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Mad Hamish posted:I don't recall any explicit statements that Melisandre and Stannis were banging until ADWD when Melisandre notes to herself that her bed rarely saw any use since Stannis went to Winterfell - it's the same passage where we discover that she doesn't need to sleep. Or did I miss it? I don't think it's explicitly said, but it's alluded that the shadow assassins are birthed by sex. Davos smuggles Melisandre under Storm's End and she births a Shadow which Davos notes looks like Stannis. In the show this is to kill Renly but in the books Mel actually births two shadows: one to kill Renly and the other to kill Ser Cortnay Penrose. Davos witnesses the birth of the shadow that kills the latter. Afterwards Davos notes that Stannis appears visibly aged and Mel says that she can't birth another assassin with him as it might kill him. She offers to do make one with Davos but he says gently caress that. I don't know if it's said that they're regularly banging aside from those two instances though. I suspect not because book Stannis doesn't give two fucks about sex and only has sex with his wife a few times a year and that out of duty to try and get more heirs and it's said he takes no joy in it. Stan man has no time for lusts, only duty.
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May 28, 2019 17:53
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Ginette Reno posted:to kill Ser Cortnay Penrose. Davos witnesses the birth of the shadow that kills the latter.
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May 28, 2019 18:00
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https://twitter.com/JHensley55/status/1130163974769717248
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May 28, 2019 19:34
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kcroy posted:Man, didn't you give me poo poo earlier in this thread for sperging on something? Whats up with this westeros lawyer poo poo. Rhaegar could do what he wanted because he wanted it. He wouldn't have had to divorce Elia, dude could probably just have two wives if he wanted. my dude that is not true at all "Targs do what they want" is an attitude they developed during the period when they were rendered invincible by their dragons, and even then they got poo poo on all the time for incest and polyamory, to the extent they had to give up on the latter. Turned out that dragons, like the modern military technology they are probably a metaphor for, are great for blowing up an army or a fortress, but not that good against the small but widespread insurgencies that happen when you alienate the entire realm. that's not even some kinda deep lore  thing - half the point of the story is that absolute god-king authority only goes as far as your flying superweapons can take you, and after that point you've got to play politics like anyone else there's a reason why the best Targ king was called Jahaerys the Conciliator, not Jahaerys the gently caress-You-I've-Got-A-Dragonator Rhaegar couldn't do whatever he wanted and knew he couldn't do whatever he wanted, which is why his actions probably indicate either madness or some kinda coen brothers-esque Bad Decision Spiral
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May 28, 2019 20:12
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^^^Yeah, after the invasion, they had several kings with Dragons like Maegor the Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 20:20 on May 28, 2019 |
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May 28, 2019 20:17
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Toplowtech posted:Being served by burned corpses isn't the funniest thing. Then how come the mental image made me laugh out loud? 
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May 28, 2019 20:21
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Normy posted:They're candied lemons. I'll take your word for it.
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May 28, 2019 20:27
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I feel like the text implies that they were both caught up in True Love and kind of stopped giving a poo poo what it caused or meant up until Rhaegar basically gets dragged out of the Tower of Joy to go fight Robert. That seems like the point of the Harrenhal Tourney to me. Rhaegar doesn't give a fuuuuuck.
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May 28, 2019 20:29
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im sure lyanna was into it initially she thought rhaegar was dreamy and robert was poo poo, that's pretty clear im also sure lyanna wouldn't have continued being into it after aerys incinerated her dad and brother and started a war to genocide the rest of her relatives, but there's no way she would have found out about it if rhaegar decided to keep her in the dark and if he was keeping her isolated from all outside news, it would have become gradually clear he was actually a creep and weirdo who wanted her for a magic prophecy brood mare the way the show played it as some wholesome thing really bugged me imo there's no way to get round rhaegar being a creep unless you've got some real hosed up base assumptions
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May 28, 2019 20:46
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Does the show or the books ever clear up where Hugh's got his money from or why the Lannisters had him killed? Petyr Baelish wants to make Ned believe that Hugh's was paid by the Lannisters for assisting in the murder of Jon Arrynd but this is never confirmed or supported in any way.
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May 28, 2019 20:50
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Book Rhaegar is obsessed with books and prophecy. He might have actually loved Lyanna but I'm sure 90% of the reason he marries her and tries to have Jon is the whole "Dragon has three heads" thing.
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May 28, 2019 20:52
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Katt posted:Does the show or the books ever clear up where Hugh's got his money from or why the Lannisters had him killed? once we found out that littlefinger and lysa were actually the ones who killed off Jon Arryn, i assumed they were also responsible for all of the arryn-adjacent shadiness such as Hugh's death Gregor works for the lannisters, but Littlefinger's gold spends as well as anyone's - I'm sure if Littlefinger slipped him a bag of dragons to kill off some teenaged knight in a joust he wouldn't say no it could have been the Lannisters trying to kill off anyone who knew about Arryn's investigations though, sure
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May 28, 2019 20:57
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Katt posted:Does the show or the books ever clear up where Hugh's got his money from or why the Lannisters had him killed? I always took it as a red herring. Petyr is just stirring poo poo up and this up-jumped squire happened to be around Jon Arryn at an opportune time. I just figured it was Arryn money that got him saddled up and since Lysa was at the Eyrie and Jon was dead, there was no one around to say it wasn't.
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May 28, 2019 21:01
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Ginette Reno posted:I don't think it's explicitly said, but it's alluded that the shadow assassins are birthed by sex. Davos smuggles Melisandre under Storm's End and she births a Shadow which Davos notes looks like Stannis. In the show this is to kill Renly but in the books Mel actually births two shadows: one to kill Renly and the other to kill Ser Cortnay Penrose. Davos witnesses the birth of the shadow that kills the latter. Stannis is so Not Gay he Doesn't Have Sex At All
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May 28, 2019 21:05
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Ginette Reno posted:Book Rhaegar is obsessed with books and prophecy. He might have actually loved Lyanna but I'm sure 90% of the reason he marries her and tries to have Jon is the whole "Dragon has three heads" thing. I doubt it. It really comes off as outside of Arthur Dayne, Rhaegar gives zero fucks about anything else before he reads some prophecy and then does a personality 180
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May 28, 2019 21:24
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Katt posted:Does the show or the books ever clear up where Hugh's got his money from or why the Lannisters had him killed? It was probably Littlefinger himself, because someone apparently mentions knighting Hugh to honour Jon Arryn's memory and that seems out of character for the Lannisters Also keep in mind that two people would have been required to kill him, Gregor obviously, but also whoever helped him get into his armour. He didn't have a squire so whoever did his armour for the tourney likely left his gorget unclasped on purpose. Not too many knights are mentioned to fight at the Tourney but one we do know that was present was Lothar Brune who is mentioned because he fights a northman. Brune is one of Littlefinger's men and from the Vale so he probably knew Hugh and was the one who helped him with the armour, especially if it was paid for by Lysa Arryn or Littlefinger. At the same time after typing all this, I'm doing a re-read and I'm about halfway through Dance, and I think that Game of Thrones is easily the worst book. The story is good and enjoyable but its inconsistent and a lot of what happens is plain illogical and fantastical, and I think a lot of trouble stems from GRRM writing it thinking that he was going to have a tight quick trilogy and the editor not knowing the general endgame. A lot of Ned and Catlyn's conveniently idiotic choices stir the plot a little too well and don't really make too much sense when looked back at logically with things we've learned from the next 4 books. But I mean the book came out like 25 years ago, when GRRM was writing it even he probably didn't really know what we were going to learn in the next 4 books. I think the most egregious example is early on when Bran has a dream that heavily implies Jamie was going to end up being the end villain in the story, which GRRM has said was his original intention but that he'll likely change because he likes Jaime's character now. imo Game is the book that has the least hidden mysteries and subplots, just because I don't think GRRM really thought he was writing that kind of series when he actually wrote the book. SirKibbles posted:I doubt it. It really comes off as outside of Arthur Dayne, Rhaegar gives zero fucks about anything else before he reads some prophecy and then does a personality 180 He's like 10 when he reads the prophecy and has the personality flip though
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May 28, 2019 22:00
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Magic 100% exists before the comet/dragons. It was just weaker. iirc the warlocks in Qarth comment on it having grown stronger due to the comet/dragons.
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May 28, 2019 23:13
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esperterra posted:Magic 100% exists before the comet/dragons. It was just weaker. iirc the warlocks in Qarth comment on it having grown stronger due to the comet/dragons. isn't wildfire implied to be magical
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May 28, 2019 23:22
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PupsOfWar posted:isn't wildfire implied to be magical The pyromancers / alchemists / w/e claim that it's become more powerful recently, which happens after the birth of the dragons.
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May 28, 2019 23:28
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The alchemist or whatever mentions that the "spells" they use to produce it have become a lot more efficient before the Blackwater.
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May 28, 2019 23:29
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The reason the Seven are the religion is because the people in power use it to exercise power over the rest of the population, and they'd rather do that than have to listen to some red priests and the actual god/demons they listen to and serve.
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May 29, 2019 00:14
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A Typical Goon posted:
And he still remains a weirdo and pretty much everyone is like he isn't really close to anyone except Arthur. I've never seen anyone hold that opinion about the 1st book interesting way of looking at it although I think by the time he decided it wasn't a trilogy it was still in the outline +first couple of chapters. I still don't think AFFC is that bad. The plot had to take a breather to examine the fallout of all the things that happened in ASoS. ADWD is the two most boring POVs currently (personal opinion) and when Jon finally starts getting interesting is at the end of his chapters
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May 29, 2019 01:00
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irl like half the world converted to christianity despite genuinely believing in magic and witchcraft, i dont think its a plot hole or w/e that the Seven are a dominant faith in westeros when the Andals invaded they would have been claiming their own collection of miracles, and if they won enough battles people would stop gainsaying these hell, to the First Men, iron and steel probably seemed fairly magical, and iirc the Andals credit their knowledge of ironworking as a gift given to them by the Smith if you're the sort who picks a religion by shopping between miracles (disclaimer, yes i know that ain't how religious conversion usually works) then having 100% much better tools, weapons and armor probably beats out having trees that talk sometimes, or having 1 in 10,000 people be able to talk to a marmot the targaryens could probably have forced people to convert to the valyrian religion, but aegon was smart enough to know this was unneeded hassle
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May 29, 2019 01:12
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