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quote:that doesn't mean there isn't racism, it just means it's not the same. Turns out you can have a lovely unequal society even without a race divide, who would've thought! Like literally this is what was said actually and since then some people have been going OFF about it. All that was originally said actually was that VZ has social divides also and literally someone popped in to say "nah actually it doesn't." I remember "classism" being mentioned and people being incredulous that the claim was made that VZ had no racism/classism. So if you're now saying the above quoted then we're not even in disagreement and you're yelling at a strawman.
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May 27, 2019 16:50
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Moridin920 posted:Like literally this is what was said actually and since then some people have been going OFF about it. This is not actually what happened.
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May 27, 2019 16:51
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Squalid posted:This is not actually what happened. It is, actually. I was one of the posters that originally stated "there is surely racism/classism in VZ" and got shouted down. I remember it clearly and if you really want I can trawl through old posts to find it. I remember laughing out loud irl when I read "there is no classism/racism in Venezuela." It's been a running joke for a few weeks now in the other thread. So now at least we admit that yes there are social divides just like any other country, esp those borne from colonies.
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May 27, 2019 16:52
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Moridin920 posted:It is, actually. I was one if the that originally stated "there is surely racism/classism in VZ" and got shouted down. I remember it clearly and if you really want I can trawl through old posts to find it. I'm not really interested in relitigating these weird slap fights. If you really want to reread all this poo poo just click on my post history since i was always in the thick of it.
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May 27, 2019 16:55
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I'm not either but for some reason homie keeps bringing it up to yell at the moralists. My position was always there is racism/classism present in VZ. A few weeks ago I got called US-centric for stating that. You can call it colorism instead if you want but it's just semantics.
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May 27, 2019 16:56
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Moridin920 posted:I'm not either but for some reason homie keeps bringing it up to yell at the moralists. wait who's the homie here, 30.5 Days? Because he's the one who brought this poo poo back up, not fnox. nobody who ever pointed out racism exists in Venezuela has ever been shouted down. People who act like everything is exactly the same as in the United States get their mistake pointed out.
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May 27, 2019 17:04
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Squalid posted:People who act like everything is exactly the same as in the United States get their mistake pointed out. No one did this. I just re-read all the posts. At best I am going to chalk this up to no one quite understanding what the other person was saying at the time. It seems the original misunderstanding arose because someone used the word "lynched" in reference to the person killed by opposition protesters and the other side assumed they were trying to transpose US race relations onto Venezuela when all they were doing is using a word that means "hung by a rope until dead" - although I see how someone else might assume that the word carries a more specific connotation of "white - black racism / violence" specific to the USA. But, no one is constantly equating US social problems with Venezuela's. That's just not a thing that is happening. The original point was only just that people were concerned there might be a pattern of racism/classism to the opposition movement (I don't think one instance of a hanging done by random protesters is evidence for that necessarily, mind you). Anyway whatever, I just want to know this: what do you want the US to do? What does fnox want the USA to do? quote:This is the problem with you pieces of poo poo. This crisis doesn't hurt you, it hurts my friends, it hurts my family, it hurts me. The desperation does not reach you, the consequences do not reach you, you have no stake in this other than just your loving posturing. We will never be on the same terms, we will never see this the same way, because you can choose to ignore the suffering, and I can't, so while I'm willing to settle for just anything that will make this poo poo end, you can live on your life happy as ever riding on your high loving horses. like... cool dude but what do you want us to do? Do you think the situation is so bad that it cannot get worse so there's no risk/danger in the US intervening with more force than it has? e: And honestly.... Egh. I personally knew 2 people who are now dead thanks to the US' adventures in the Middle East and a handful more that are not ever going to be the same person they were. And they didn't achieve poo poo all but create even more chaos and death. IDK what you're asking for exactly but another war in the jungles of South America isn't just "whatever" to us. I get that you're frustrated and angry but that doesn't mean everyone who isn't in lockstep with you is some kind of monster. It's not like there is some "fix everything" magic we are just withholding because we're trolls. What do you want the USA to do? Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 17:34 on May 27, 2019 |
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May 27, 2019 17:09
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Moridin920 posted:No one did this. I just re-read all the posts. yeah, they do, although their mistakes are often fairly technical and hence difficult to grasp. the most common mistake is confusing racial prejudice for racial identity. It's difficult for a lot of people without a background in cultural studies to understand why this is a serious mistake, but there are major differences in the ways these issues intersect in Venezuela and North America that a lot of posters have trouble grasping. quote:Anyway whatever, I just want to know this: what do you want the US to do? What does fnox want the USA to do? I don't know what I want the US to do.
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May 27, 2019 17:24
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Moridin920 posted:No one did this. I just re-read all the posts. I want you to do something. Something. Anything. There was a time where democratic transitions could have occurred, it got squandered the moment it got converted into a so called dialogue, because it didn’t involve anything that would compel Maduro to do anything. This crisis has been going on since 2014. It’s been five years of negligence. I left the country in 2016, and year to year it’s all been worse and worse, all while this particular wing of the international left, the American left, has done absolutely nothing if not directly intercede in favor of Maduro’s disastrous government. They’ve literally done nothing. Nothing to aid refugees coming into your country and elsewhere in Latin America, nothing to aid expats find their footing, nothing to aid people in Venezuela such as with donations or food drives, nothing, nada, zero. All they do is pester, all they do is get in the way. Like loving unfortunately, the only help Venezuelans have gotten thus far has been from center right governments, like the democratic visa in Chile helping refugees become regular migrants, or similar processes which exist now in Spain, Colombia, Peru. Guess loving what? The Venezuelan refugee crisis is real and how white or privileged you may think these people are doesn’t matter, they need help. Any help, literally any help is better than no help. Since the left lacks a spine to criticize Maduro on how he very obviously did not implement a successful socialist or communal state, and instead established a military kleptocracy, they either choose to not do anything, or double down, and we are left with no other choice. How any of you still fall for the propaganda, when I was the one brought up surrounded by the Eyes of Chavez being stenciled on every corner is really beyond me. God drat, get a hint, what Maduro says caused the crisis isn’t true. Unfortunately at the time when all that was needed was just some vocal international support backing a democratic transition, in 2016, what we got was “words of strong condemnation”, and from that point on, Maduro has been cementing his grasp. Now, in 2019, it’s way too late for words. This man is not willing to surrender power peacefully, it can’t happen anymore. Now any option left on the table results in misery, no matter what is decided, people are gonna suffer and die, how many and for how long is still up in the air. And the grim truth is nobody gives a gently caress about us, not the US, not Maduro, not China, not Russia, and I am well aware of that.
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May 27, 2019 19:58
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fnox posted:I want you to do something. Something. Anything. Well, US sanctions have been intentionally and successfully contributing to the starvation Venezuelans according to the congressional hearings.
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May 27, 2019 21:32
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Also, the NATO group just did something by backing Guaido. It resulted in Maduro coming out on top and probably further cementing his power while the opposition looked like a bunch of loons. Next step could be some sort of military intervention, with the warhawks in US senate now openly and repeatedly calling for military action. There most likely won't be an invasion, but I wouldn't rule out a bombing campaign, like in Libya, at this point. I feel real bad about the destitution, but I'm sure getting a bunch of infrastructure bombed compounding the problems introduced by new sanctions isn't going to help people get food and medicine. Iraq living standard is still strictly worse than it was before the war, and that started almost 20 years ago now. Libya is still in a civil war.
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May 27, 2019 21:36
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The International Contact Group is still doing stuff and trying to facilitate negotiations and aid. They're doing better on the second part than the first part. https://venezuelablog.org/venezuela-weekly-international-contact-group-renews-mandate-ready-discuss-concrete-options/ (also includes their thoughts on the failed April 30 revolt) -- https://venezuelablog.org/venezuela-weekly-diplomatic-efforts-resolve-crisis-learned-past/ quote:Last week, Reuters confirmed rumors that Norway hosted exploratory talks in Oslo with delegations of the opposition and the government on May 15. Little is known publicly about the agenda in Oslo, but sources close to the process have said that the opposing sides received separate invitations from the Norwegian government, and that they met separately with Norwegian mediators and not with each other. quote:Human Rights -- https://venezuelablog.org/venezuela-weekly-international-contact-group-momentum-confronted-obdurate-political-actors/ quote:The unexpectedly robust statement from the International Contact Group last week—stating they would be sending a political (i.e. not just technical) mission to discuss concrete proposals for elections and accepting the Lima Group’s invitation to discuss working together—generated some initial enthusiasm. For example, China recognized the ICG’s meeting and statement saying “China will step up communication and work together in a constructive manner with the international community including the EU for the political settlement. This will serve the interests of the Venezuelan people and all parties.” All the VZblog weekly roundups include some news tidbits that aren't the headline.
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May 27, 2019 22:17
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fnox posted:I want you to do something. Something. Anything. US farmers have so much inventory of corn and soybeans they're going broke because it's barely worth the effort of harvesting. We could plant nothing for two years and still be coasting on inventory in time for the harvest three years from now. The United States could end the hunger in Venezuela next week. It will not because the famine is a desired product.
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May 27, 2019 23:16
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Willie Tomg posted:US farmers have so much inventory of corn and soybeans they're going broke because it's barely worth the effort of harvesting. We could plant nothing for two years and still be coasting on inventory in time for the harvest three years from now. The United States could end the hunger in Venezuela next week. It will not because the famine is a desired product. Instead the US government is just going to give these same farmers tens of billions of dollars.
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May 27, 2019 23:32
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The United States doesn't even care about Puerto Rico being decimated I don't know how anyone believes our leaders when they say they care if Venezuelans are starving. I'm all for helping them but that would be working with their government to distribute our food surplus, not sanctions which never do anything to the leaders while threatening blowing up the regular civilians.
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May 27, 2019 23:44
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Radish posted:The United States doesn't even care about Puerto Rico being decimated I don't know how anyone believes our leaders when they say they care if Venezuelans are starving. I'm all for helping them but that would be working with their government to distribute our food surplus, not sanctions which never do anything to the leaders while threatening blowing up the regular civilians. That's part of why the ICG's important! 420 Gank Mid posted:Who was the goon who posted "What's an Afro-Venezuelan????" While claiming to be from Venezuela? please do not be a shitbag to score points if you'll flip back through the last page or three that general topic came up and the upshot was the same as, you know, the time you're misrepresenting, ie, colorism is sort of a thing in Venezuela but it's very iffy to directly equate racism in the US and racism in Venezuela or (depending) other parts of South America Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 04:20 on May 28, 2019 |
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May 28, 2019 00:40
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Willie Tomg posted:US farmers have so much inventory of corn and soybeans they're going broke because it's barely worth the effort of harvesting. We could plant nothing for two years and still be coasting on inventory in time for the harvest three years from now. The United States could end the hunger in Venezuela next week. It will not because the famine is a desired product. I don't know if a mass of soybeans would solve the hunger in Venezuela but nothing Maduro has done has shown that he would accept aid in mass from the USA anyways.
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May 28, 2019 01:38
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Who was the goon who posted "What's an Afro-Venezuelan????" While claiming to be from Venezuela?536 posted:I don't know if a mass of soybeans would solve the hunger in Venezuela but nothing Maduro has done has shown that he would accept aid in mass from the USA anyways. If the US wanted to deliver aid they could just give it through the Red Cross or any number of neutral NGO's but then they cant sneak in guns and explosives for the death squads they're supporting.
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May 28, 2019 02:06
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420 Gank Mid posted:Who was the goon who posted "What's an Afro-Venezuelan????" While claiming to be from Venezuela? The Red Cross has only been allowed to send aid since April of this year. This was one of the main points of contention between Maduro and Guaido. Before then, Maduro had stated, repeatedly that there is no humanitarian crisis, but I am glad you too have seen the light. And I might as well comment on this other commonly used snippet that is used to discredit me. It’s a semantics argument. Nobody says “Afro Venezuelan” to refer to a person in Venezuela, because we don’t have the same amount of loaded words and slurs that Americans seem to have. The word “negro” doesn’t have a negative connotation in Venezuela, it simply means black. One of our independence heroes was Pedro Camejo, or Negro Primero, who served in the vanguard of Bolivar’s army. He’s on the 1000 bolívares bill, or what used to be the 5 bolívares bill. Matter of fact, it’s considered rude in Venezuela to assume someone’s national origin or to overtly or excessively refer to someone’s race, generally that’s limited to just “moreno”, “chino”, “indio” or “catire”. There’s a lot of countries in Africa and the Caribbean and I don’t understand why you guys make the distinction between people of German and English descent but not between people of Haitian or Cameroonian descent, those are all “Afro Americans”. There’s a ton of history and nuance that gets obliterated by that label. Likewise, there’s people who have been Venezuelan for over 10 generations, at which point do you think they should be called just “Venezuelan” with no prefix?
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May 28, 2019 07:11
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fnox posted:I don’t understand why you guys make the distinction between people of German and English descent but not between people of Haitian or Cameroonian descent, those are all “Afro Americans”. There’s a ton of history and nuance that gets obliterated by that label. Kind of OT, but the history and nuance for most American blacks got obliterated by slavery and the acute destruction of their cultural heritage. If most African Americans had ended up in the US through normal emigration then they'd also no doubt refer to themselves as of Cameroonian, Nigerian, etc, descent. People of post-slavery African descent will most definitely talk about being of "Kenyan / Nigerian / whatever" descent and not solely identify as "African American". There's also definitely a thing to refer to yourself as "American" and gently caress off about asking "where you're really from" especially (IME) for people that look "Asian" but speak unaccented American English.
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May 28, 2019 07:20
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fnox posted:and I don’t understand why you guys make the distinction between people of German and English descent but not between people of Haitian or Cameroonian descent if you're talking about the "sabine mengele-eichmann" jokes they're not "making a distinction", it's an implication that they're (grand)children of nazis
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May 28, 2019 07:38
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Saladman posted:Kind of OT, but the history and nuance for most American blacks got obliterated by slavery and the acute destruction of their cultural heritage. If most African Americans had ended up in the US through normal emigration then they'd also no doubt refer to themselves as of Cameroonian, Nigerian, etc, descent. People of post-slavery African descent will most definitely talk about being of "Kenyan / Nigerian / whatever" descent and not solely identify as "African American". This is what I mean, this is clinical language in Venezuela, what you would use to describe the tambora from Barlovento which is a tradition that has multiple African roots, not for people. I’ve never heard the term Afro-Venezuelan being used to describe a person who is black. I’m not sure why this is used to insult me when, to me, this seems like yet another American sensibility attributed to Venezuela. And actually there’s a reason why it seems that way because this whole thing comes from a TeleSur article posted about the protests that was supposed to draw parallels between mob vigilante violence and the lynching of African Americans in the south, because that’s what a good propaganda piece meant for Americans would go for. It paints the picture of the opposition being white rich racists and chavistas being oppressed blacks, which makes it very easy for you Americans to pick a side. They didn’t mention that the mob wasn’t white, they didn’t mention that this mob violence was happening everywhere, not just in Altamira, most notably it was occurring in the Caracas subway. I brought that up, but since it didn’t fit this nice Jim Crow allegory that was ignored. Literally the origin of this semantics issue is due to the repackaging of news in Venezuela into things American leftists know how to respond to.
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May 28, 2019 08:13
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https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Venezuela-Welcomes-69-Tons-of-Medicines-From-China-20190527-0014.html
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May 28, 2019 13:50
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hm yes it's clearly the American left's fault that Obama's center-right government caged refugee children, and it's clearly even more the American left's fault that Trump took it to the next level. Why isn't the American left writing policy on Venezuelan refugees, inquiring minds want to know (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 28, 2019 19:58
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VitalSigns posted:hm yes it's clearly the American left's fault that Obama's center-right government caged refugee children, and it's clearly even more the American left's fault that Trump took it to the next level. i am still not over the beautiful moment of being told "a black lady being mean to Elliot Abrams is going to doom Venezuela and reelect Donald Trump, because cuban expats wouldn't have supported intervention without that happening"
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May 28, 2019 20:06
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Venezuelan Businessman Joined Plot to Oust Maduro—and Escape Sanctions The actual article is paywalled, but RT seems to have a summary: quote:Citing the Venezuelan publication Armando Info, the WSJ said that Gorrin was offering the prospect of the US removing sanctions against Venezuelan officials if they switched their support to Guaido. As an argument, he would bring up the lifting of sanctions against his wife, Maria Alexandra Perdomo. Seems like the sanctions are entirely politicized and intended to destabilize the regime. If the US truly cared about fighting money laundering, they wouldn't be using them as leverage to cut deals with venezuelan oligarchs.
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May 29, 2019 17:09
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Even assuming a Sanders presidency with all sanctions being lifted I'm really curious as to what the future of their oil industry is going to be like, don't China and Russia basically own the extraction rights now? How do you ever get the poo poo back from that point?
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May 29, 2019 17:32
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Thompsons posted:Even assuming a Sanders presidency with all sanctions being lifted I'm really curious as to what the future of their oil industry is going to be like, don't China and Russia basically own the extraction rights now? How do you ever get the poo poo back from that point? The American oil companys also own much of the extraction rights. Maduro and Chavez sold such rights to Americans as well, and in about the equal proportion. There is also small amount sold to EU countries. If all sanctions end, those oil rights will be used by America and EU again.
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May 29, 2019 18:01
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The Associated Press talks to workers in another industry teetering on the brink thanks to Venezuela's economic collapse... organised crime.quote:CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — The feared street gangster El Negrito sleeps with a pistol under his pillow and says he’s lost track of his murder count. But despite his hardened demeanor, he’s quick to gripe about how Venezuela’s failing economy is cutting into his profits.
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May 29, 2019 23:31
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Darth Walrus posted:The Associated Press talks to workers in another industry teetering on the brink thanks to Venezuela's economic collapse... organised crime. visionary president Nicolas Maduro will soon abolish crime in Venezuela I swear I've seen that article before.
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May 30, 2019 00:01
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GreyjoyBastard posted:visionary president Nicolas Maduro will soon abolish crime in Venezuela If you ignore all the dreck that gets posted here, it would only be three pages back. VZ prison riot made the front page of English Wikipedia, kind of surprised no one has mentioned it.
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May 30, 2019 00:14
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madeintaipei posted:If you ignore all the dreck that gets posted here, it would only be three pages back. 29 dead inmates 
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May 30, 2019 00:20
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fnox posted:I want you to do something. Something. Anything. There was a time where democratic transitions could have occurred, it got squandered the moment it got converted into a so called dialogue, because it didn’t involve anything that would compel Maduro to do anything. This crisis has been going on since 2014. It’s been five years of negligence. You're complaining that leftwing people are not helping rightwing people achieve their aims?
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May 30, 2019 01:39
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HorseLord posted:You're complaining that leftwing people are not helping rightwing people achieve their aims? I think he's complaining that Maduro and the PSUV and their policies are destroying his country and the rest of the world doesn't seem to care.
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May 30, 2019 06:31
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Epicurius posted:I think he's complaining that Maduro and the PSUV and their policies are destroying his country and the rest of the world doesn't seem to care. for that matter he suggests a couple of ways in which we and our fellow leftists could have supported the suffering people without even necessarily saying the PSUV was bad
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May 30, 2019 06:39
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I don't understand how if the government who is exacerbating the venezuelan refugee crisis has also endeavoured to make it harder for refugees to seek asylum there it should be considered the left's responsibility for some reason
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May 30, 2019 07:06
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HorseLord posted:You're complaining that leftwing people are not helping rightwing people achieve their aims? No, I'm complaining that it's apathy from the people who should've been criticizing him that got us to this point. Maduro had crossed the line 3 years ago. There was a way out that doesn't exist any more. The peaceful transition is no longer plausible. Maduro will either remain in power, propped up by him handing over resources to foreign powers as the Venezuelan people get used as slave labour, working for pennies for decades to come for their Chinese overlords; or the US will intervene, cause a war, kill thousands of innocents and then turn us into a puppet state. No matter what, there will be a loss of life, and a loss of sovereignty. We are hosed now. The bare minimum that I am expecting the American left to do is to not take the Venezuelan government's word, exert a modicum of scepticism, and just corroborate that the baseline beliefs about him are actually true. It's as simple as just checking if before the sanctions, before Trump, he was successfully implementing a socialist state. Here, let me get the ball rolling, there's been shortages since 2012-2013, what caused that? That's before the oil price drops, before any sanctions, before anything that you can pin the US on, and immediately following Chavez' death. Follow the timeline and you'll very clearly see that Venezuela's crisis began with Maduro taking power, and that he's been a destabilizing force ever since.
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May 30, 2019 07:40
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mortons stork posted:I don't understand how if the government who is exacerbating the venezuelan refugee crisis has also endeavoured to make it harder for refugees to seek asylum there it should be considered the left's responsibility for some reason alright, fair enough, I'm going to make a tremendous concession and say that Donald Trump is bad
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May 30, 2019 08:54
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mortons stork posted:I don't understand how if the government who is exacerbating the venezuelan refugee crisis has also endeavoured to make it harder for refugees to seek asylum there it should be considered the left's responsibility for some reason Do we even really know if there is a refugee crisis? Telesur has said there isnt. https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Venezuela-Rejects-False-News-on-Humanitarian-Crisis-Migration-20180903-0006.html
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May 30, 2019 12:59
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536 posted:Do we even really know if there is a refugee crisis? Telesur has said there isnt. Hahahahahahaha gently caress you
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May 30, 2019 13:01
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