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KingNastidon posted:gaming tutorials
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May 28, 2019 18:14
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Maybe some of us will see there's trash needs hauling and will do it cos it needs doing??? You know like normal people do all the time? Like if it snows do you never offer to shovel anyone else's path clear or something? Do you not go to the grit box and do a bit of the road cos it needs doing?
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May 28, 2019 18:18
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OwlFancier posted:Maybe some of us will see there's trash needs hauling and will do it cos it needs doing??? If you want people to haul trash you need to have the Trash Hauling Labor enabled. Maybe if you had taken a gaming tutorial you would know that.
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May 28, 2019 18:20
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Maybe I'd just rather hang out with the binmen than some guy who thinks he's too good to haul trash.
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May 28, 2019 18:25
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Calibanibal posted:If you want people to haul trash you need to have the Trash Hauling Labor enabled. Maybe if you had taken a gaming tutorial you would know that. Given the freedom of choice in labor I fully expect Trash Hauling Simulator to be developed. This will need a tutorial like any other game and my labor shall provide it. OwlFancier posted:Maybe I'd just rather hang out with the binmen than some guy who thinks he's too good to haul trash. I don't think I'm too good to haul trash, I just don't think it's what I'd choose to do with my labor hours given all other alternatives that pay the same. To each their own.
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May 28, 2019 18:31
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Did I miss someone saying that all jobs must be paid exactly the same wage and less "desirable" work shouldn't have any "this is dangerous/smells/backbreaking" bonus to it? Like, it's loving criminal that the cleaning staff at our office get paid a fraction of what I do, but we'd notice they'd stopped work long before anyone would notice I have. Having a UBI isn't exclusive of improving wages and imo jobs that directly assist society (amenities, keeping public spaces clean, sanitation, medicine, education, public transport etc) should pay well.
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May 28, 2019 18:38
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I mean I said that but I was coming at it from the perspective of "maybe we could get rid of stupid rich people salaries and pay people for actual hours worked, at the same hourly rate, while getting rid of the conditions that make some jobs less desirable. If you approach it from the perspective that work is hours of people's lives then if you believe all life is equally valuable then you kinda have to come to the conclusion that all work should be equally paid, or at least that being the preferred ideal.
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May 28, 2019 18:40
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Bundy posted:Did I miss someone saying that all jobs must be paid exactly the same wage and less "desirable" work shouldn't have any "this is dangerous/smells/backbreaking" bonus to it? yeah that's a position some itt are advancing imo that's excessively utopian
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May 28, 2019 18:40
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This conversation is falling into the classic pre-configuration trap where we can't envision the scale of systems change we're trying to model. The answer is also that we can reconfigure the way we allocate labor to more sensibly allocate tasks under our new system. It can be as simple as adopting a Singapore model for trash pickup. Or slightly more complex like changing the expectations that yes, as part of being a chemist / machinist / artist / lawyer / streamer is you occasionally clean the floors and take out the trash. Or we make the tasks more enjoyable or the cultural cachet for doing those tasks more powerful.
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May 28, 2019 18:40
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KingNastidon posted:Maybe it'd just prefer to help people via tutoring, gaming tutorials, providing strong opinions on sports, or hell just being a life coach. My labor is available and appointments can be made online. What will compel people to haul trash in 90 degree heat vs. less strenuous alternatives assuming no difference in pay? I have a friend who enjoyed his job stacking shelves in a warehouse with no heating from 7 pm to 1 am, he'd probably go back to it if it paid the same as his current (arguably easier) job. I was so bored last year between university semesters I started learning a language just because it was something challenging. Again, not everyone is you.
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May 28, 2019 18:41
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V. Illych L. posted:imo that's excessively utopian My thing about jobs that benefit society should pay better?
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May 28, 2019 18:44
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I mean I'm open to the possibility that you might need some kind of "unpleasant job bonus" or whatever but I'm definitely not gonna start out with that as my first assumption when there are plenty of opportunities to make most jobs far less unpleasant such that you can probably find plenty of people willing to do them cos it's just what they find best suited to themselves. Sure running a bin wagon full time seems like a shite job but maybe in a world where people consume less poo poo and we don't wrap everything in shitloads of packaging and you're not encouraged to do one job 40 hours a week for the sake of "efficiency" and you actually get a good standard of living out of it, it could be a much better job? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:46 on May 28, 2019 |
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May 28, 2019 18:44
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I like how in the visionary socialist future people are still walking their weekly 2 bags of trash to the corner to be picked up by a truck. Isn't one of the premises with regard to same pay for all work that there isn't really a need for a bunch of lovely manual labor to begin with? Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 18:52 on May 28, 2019 |
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May 28, 2019 18:50
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Bundy posted:My thing about jobs that benefit society should pay better? nah the notion that we ought to have nil difference in consumption as a goal to work towards mind, differences ought to be radically different to how they are today, but everyone living off the same base income is imo not practicable in the foreseeable future
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May 28, 2019 18:56
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Everyone living off the same income is not the same as everyone having the same quality of life. Obviously some people need things others don't. Obviously some people are more able to work than others.
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May 28, 2019 19:00
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OwlFancier posted:Everyone living off the same income is not the same as everyone having the same quality of life. Obviously some people need things others don't. Obviously some people are more able to work than others. yeah not meaning to misrepresent you, i'm talking specifically about different compensation for different kinds of work absent any special needs or exceptional circumstances
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May 28, 2019 19:20
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OwlFancier posted:Maybe some of us will see there's trash needs hauling and will do it cos it needs doing??? Probably not enough to haul all the trash that needs hauling. People create a lot of trash. Not to mention trash disposal on a societal scale is way more complicated and even professional than rolling your bin to the curb.
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May 28, 2019 19:47
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wateroverfire posted:Probably not enough to haul all the trash that needs hauling. People create a lot of trash. Not to mention trash disposal on a societal scale is way more complicated and even professional than rolling your bin to the curb. Perhaps reconsidering the systems of incentives that lead to American per person waste production being higher than other developed nations is part of a proposal to completely reorganize economics? If you’re an engineer going to school today, if you choose to study landfill design you’re already proving the point that people aren’t just mindlessly seeking the most money and have other reasons they seek the work they do. At the core these kinds of questions are based in a narrow-mindedness of economic and social possibilities because it’s trying to wrap itself around the greatest social transformation potentially in human history*. So what we can envision is fundamentally limited by our world views created by our embedding in a broken system. *As a side note, I’d like to point out we must undergo social and economic changes at a historically unseen rate of change or turn our world into a hellscape. That’s the conservative scientific consensus of the UN.
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May 28, 2019 20:07
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KingNastidon posted:I don't think I'm too good to haul trash, I just don't think it's what I'd choose to do with my labor hours given all other alternatives that pay the same. To each their own. What really needs to be addressed here is the myth of laziness. It's the core idea backing the just world fallacy so our society tries to worm it into our minds. The notion that people are inherently lazy is absolute bullshit. Our bodies naturally reward physical activity- completing tasks feels good. We're also socially primed to seek gratitude of others. Things that communities need get done because there's a natural double whammy of reward to doing things for your community. Classism opposes this natural sense of community. We have to tie the most important jobs, like agriculture and sanitation, to a constant struggle of poverty so the workers stay where we need them and are incentivised to maximize their labor. And since it would be ethically reprehensible to admit that we are forcing massive swathes of people to suffer we push the narrative that anyone who's smart and willing to work hard can make their way up, all these people stuck hauling garbage are just dumb and lazy. Talk to anyone in these jobs, though. They almost never complain about the work itself- they complain about poo poo pay, understaffing, brutal scheduling, bosses up their rear end, bureaucracy, whatever. Most people take pride in what they do and would be insulted by the idea of making their living playing video games. KingNastidon posted:Maybe it'd just prefer to help people via tutoring, gaming tutorials, providing strong opinions on sports, or hell just being a life coach. Bundy posted:Did I miss someone saying that all jobs must be paid exactly the same wage and less "desirable" work shouldn't have any "this is dangerous/smells/backbreaking" bonus to it? I'm pretty sure no one is arguing that a UBI plus incentives for certain jobs is undesirable. I'm also pretty sure it would be logistically impossible to get a UBI passed today without some wage discrepancy. The main argument is that as a socialist ideal we want people to have the same access to resources regardless of their specific job.
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May 28, 2019 20:08
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Trabisnikof posted:Perhaps reconsidering the systems of incentives that lead to American per person waste production being higher than other developed nations is part of a proposal to completely reorganize economics? At that level of unspecificity what are we even talking about? "What if we just remake everything from the ground up?" is the sort of prompt that doesn't contain anything to grab hold of and have a discussion about. At least IMO. We have to be able to agree on at least some parameters that are fixed.
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May 28, 2019 20:12
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wateroverfire posted:At that level of unspecificity what are we even talking about? "What if we just remake everything from the ground up?" is the sort of prompt that doesn't contain anything to grab hold of and have a discussion about. At least IMO. We have to be able to agree on at least some parameters that are fixed. Thinking of an ideal society from the ground up let's you examine the features you actually want to strive for. Imagine if early liberals said "sure it would be great if we didn't have a king, but that's just utopianism. So, how do we improve this monarchy?"
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May 28, 2019 20:25
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MixMastaTJ posted:It's your trash, why should anyone but you haul it to the dump? You are literally arguing that the peons must be starved so they will haul the garbage your pristine hands cannot touch. Just quoting this one since it was the lowest down, but brought up more than once. Centralized trash hauling is a key part of ecologically friendly living. Trash hauling and processing is a distinctly professional job, and frankly is best left to the pros. 6 Million city goers each taking their own trash to the dump would create a logistical and environmental disaster. Edit: they just all deserve a way better standard of living.
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May 28, 2019 20:28
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MixMastaTJ posted:It's your trash, why should anyone but you haul it to the dump? You are literally arguing that the peons must be starved so they will haul the garbage your pristine hands cannot touch. Because trash pickup has been a service provided via taxation for decades and I don't know why we're discussing the socialization of everything else while assuming that will go away. Also I don't know whether the utopian eco future would have each person driving their two trash bags to the dump. People are arguing for UBI where income is the same regardless of type of work. That's why I'm asked how creative jobs would work or how we'd direct labor to undesirable jobs.
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May 28, 2019 20:33
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MixMastaTJ posted:Thinking of an ideal society from the ground up let's you examine the features you actually want to strive for. Imagine if early liberals said "sure it would be great if we didn't have a king, but that's just utopianism. So, how do we improve this monarchy?" "What if we were to break with the monarchy and form a republic" as a response to "how do we govern ourselves in a way that sucks less for us" isn't a totally open ended proposition, though. It's at least grounded in the concepts of what a government is, what a monarchy is, what a republic is, etc. It's a specific sort of proposal that might be achievable or not (as it happened, it was) but we can talk about why or why not in a meaningful way. "What if we just reconfigured society, huh?" in response to "how do we ensure we have trash collectors in our global communism" is just...sort of something you can say "well, okay" to. I mean it's not wrong but it's hard to see how it's right in any meaningful way either.
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May 28, 2019 20:35
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I'm not really sure there are very many "creative jobs" that need to be jobs.
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May 28, 2019 20:36
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Who gets to decide what is valid work? I think in the end that money itself is the problem. However you slice it you end up with inequality. There's not enough jobs to go around, so the ones who get them will then get paid more. Even if janitor and doctor get the same income, what about people who can't find work? Like it is kind of just true I think that money itself implies poverty. Maybe wrt to trash clean up specifically a local community can just work as trash collectors in shifts. Like one month out of the year it's just your turn to be on the trash pick up team. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 20:56 on May 28, 2019 |
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May 28, 2019 20:54
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Certainly as many things as possible should not be a market. Markets are fine for things that plain don't matter, but for things people need to have a good standard of living, they shouldn't be beholden to markets to provide them.
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May 28, 2019 20:55
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SpaceCadetBob posted:Just quoting this one since it was the lowest down, but brought up more than once. Sorry, my point might not have been clear with that. I 100% agree that a professional garbage collector will do way better at the task than I would and it would be ludicrously inefficient if we didn't take care of trash in bulk. My point was more about this assumption that it's bad work and no one would want to do it. Ethically we're all responsible for the garbage our community produces which provides a universal motive to do the thing that applies to someone with the expertise to do so. Basically, the claim "sanitation workers would rather stream on Twitch" betrays an assumption that there isn't intrinsic value to the work they do
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May 28, 2019 21:05
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wateroverfire posted:"What if we just reconfigured society, huh?" in response to "how do we ensure we have trash collectors in our global communism" is just...sort of something you can say "well, okay" to. I mean it's not wrong but it's hard to see how it's right in any meaningful way either. Because your criticisms are equally vague? Its just "how do we make sure people do ____" and the response, correctly is "society has a wide swath of tools to do so, we can't guess which is best to use now."
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May 28, 2019 21:05
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Moridin920 posted:Who gets to decide what is valid work? "The people" or "the government" or "the central community" or "the union" or "the community' or "specialists" or "managers" or the benevolent AI god king or whoever else depending on the specifics. Speaking for myself I would consider work that maintains crucial infrastructure or furthers public health and education to be high on the list of valid work. quote:I think in the end that money itself is the problem. However you slice it you end up with inequality. There's not enough jobs to go around, so the ones who get them will then get paid more. Even if janitor and doctor get the same income, what about people who can't find work? Realistically speaking the immediate priorities of a socialist state would be 1) defending itself against counter attack, 2) addressing the catastrophic effects of climate change and 3) addressing economic inequality. I don't believe that any of those goals are helped in the short to mid term by reducing the level of specialization in the economy.
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May 28, 2019 21:11
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Yeah I mean there's gonna be transition I'm just speculating on the end stage. I feel like the issue then wrt to wages at least is that there are just way way way more people than are needed for basic required work for things to function (already true today, arguably) so you're basically creating a class of job havers and a class of not job havers? Ideally goods and services are just free and no one needs money to begin with, and no one has any "income" to be worried about I guess. I doubt there will be a shortage of people just interested in civil engineering who want to make a career out of helping out at the trash facility or whatever. The incentive to do a good job is more just social recognition versus money. And yeah then you can't have a luxe mansion and private jet but no one needs that anyway and it is bad for your brain to be that rich, besides. E: I'm also assuming automation stays on pace. This morning as I walked by the break room I heard the news talking about USPS testing driverless delivery. Well we can have driverless trash pick up then, too. These things aren't like, FTL physical impossibilities. Hell we're going to automate surgeons away in a decade or two Ideally there is more community centralization vs sprawl too. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 21:36 on May 28, 2019 |
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May 28, 2019 21:26
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MixMastaTJ posted:Find me literally a single farmer who's itching to quit farming to stream on Twitch. Are you not aware of the outright slavery behind many of our current world's crops? And that even in countries without outright slavery, the "farmer" aka farm landlord often has his farm rely on very low paid workers, often outside of legal rules? Some years back, a US state used harsh enforcement on America's use of undocumented worker on the farms, and tons of crops went unharvested for lack of workers at what was paid. They then started to use the prison labor for following years. https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/05/17/the-law-of-unintended-consequences-georgias-immigration-law-backfires/#3c28522492aa Does this not indicate that existing farmers would not want to do that job if not forced to, and that many people simply won't do the job of farming without incentive? Similarly see ongoing concerns that after the brexit, tighter control on immigreation and worker travel will be a problem for british farm landlords not getting enough farmers: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-agriculture-farms-fruit-picking-migrant-workers-labour-shortage-a8469806.html
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May 28, 2019 22:14
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nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:Does this not indicate that existing farmers would not want to do that job if not forced to, and that many people simply won't do the job of farming without incentive? It indicates nothing but that capitalists lash people into slavery in order to secure higher profits. Most of that food goes uneaten and trashed anyway, by the way, it's not like this slavery is necessary to secure a global food supply. People do like to work, given humane conditions and some sort of recognition. People like to contribute and to feel like part of a greater whole. Also I point you at the Germans who get home from work and love to do nothing but fire up Farm Simulator 2019. quote:Similarly see ongoing concerns that after the brexit, tighter control on immigreation and worker travel will be a problem for british farm landlords not getting enough farmers Like the issue here is not that there aren't enough people to farm the arable land, the issue is the British farm landlords saying they will only allow people to farm their private property in exchange for not enough money to live on. btw, quote:Farm profits may halve after Brexit, says report like cool who gives a gently caress exactly except for the fact that the result is more expensive food because god forbid rich people take a wash. It's not an issue of not enough farmers, it is an issue of landlords whining about higher labor costs. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 23:18 on May 28, 2019 |
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May 28, 2019 23:12
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KingNastidon posted:Hmm, strong point. I don't know why anyone hadn't considered fully automating the food production and delivery supply chain if currently an option. Must be a tightly hidden conspiracy among the capitalist landowners and shipping companies to maintain wage slavery even if eliminating labor costs would increase their profits. Hey KN do you actually want to talk about this : automation in food production and supply chains and it's effects on labor. I can do so probably for an indefinite amount of time in a fair amount of detail. Cause I'm pretty sure ya talking outta your rear end.
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May 29, 2019 00:39
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KingNastidon posted:Hmm, strong point. I don't know why anyone hadn't considered fully automating the food production and delivery supply chain if currently an option. Must be a tightly hidden conspiracy among the capitalist landowners and shipping companies to maintain wage slavery even if eliminating labor costs would increase their profits. You're looking at $70-$100 (USD) per acre in machinery costs, not counting the initial cost of the machinery itself. Given that people are enslaved and you're talking about basically what, food water and basic shelter... I'm pretty sure it is in fact cheaper to use slave labor hence why it is done. Like if you're a landowner in India where are you pulling the $200k USD from to purchase basic equipment? A big tractor costs like $200k-400k alone. One combine is another $400k-500k. You gonna buy a sugar cane harvester for half a mil (plus maintenance) or pay $1/day for some laborers? The software to manage a large farm will run you tens of thousands also. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 01:18 on May 29, 2019 |
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May 29, 2019 01:06
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Moridin920 posted:You're a landowner in India. It costs $1,000,000 US dollars to purchase machinery that can do the work of 100, plus maintenance. It costs $1/day or less per person to use slave labor. They wouldn't be increasing their profits, then. If the argument is that global communism would increase the cost of labor to the point where automation would be more profitable then I agree. But the US still has plenty of farm labor despite higher wages than the developed world. I'm referencing farm labor as a harder job than being an independent creative. This is true of any job that has defined work schedule, deliverables, negative repercussions of failure relative to uncompetitive creative jobs.
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May 29, 2019 01:20
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KingNastidon posted:People are arguing for UBI where income is the same regardless of type of work. That's why I'm asked how creative jobs would work or how we'd direct labor to undesirable jobs. That is not what UBI is, as I understand it. When I say UBI I mean Universal Basic Income, essentially a stipend paid to all citizens, regardless of employment status. The wages issue is a separate issue, in that wages are poo poo. There is no need for wages to be poo poo. Paying a living wage/paying a wage proportionate to the hardship of a necessary role eats into profits, it does not obliterate them. If that fucks up small businesses that only exist through slave wages oh well, capitalism just ran out of ladder for you, tough poo poo. Also, "there aren't enough jobs" is utter horseshit. Halve everyone's hours and hire twice the people, at the cost of a mere modest profit. Boo loving hoo. When some rich oval office at the top of a business walks off with billions, off the work of those below, it is not earned, it is merely grotesque misappropriation of the fruits of labour. It is theft and it is not necessary.
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May 29, 2019 01:28
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Bundy posted:That is not what UBI is, as I understand it. When I say UBI I mean Universal Basic Income, essentially a stipend paid to all citizens, regardless of employment status. The wages issue is a separate issue, in that wages are poo poo. Right, but people are arguing for equal UBI (which is what standard UBI would be ignoring cost of living differences) and wage parity irrespective of job. Basically completely equal pre and post tax income for those of working age. Question is how that would affect allocating resources to industries that provide services that provide basic necessities as they're not always enjoyable jobs. All of this is completely hypothetical because we currently can't get enough votes to pass slightly higher progressive income taxes or equitable services like M4A just within the US, much less enacting global communism where US wealth is given to the developing world. Just was trying to understand how you compel people to work hard but necessary jobs when the alternative is calling any activity a job and earning exactly the same UBI + wage.
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May 29, 2019 02:08
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KingNastidon posted:Right, but people are arguing for equal UBI (which is what standard UBI would be ignoring cost of living differences) and wage parity irrespective of job. Basically completely equal pre and post tax income for those of working age. Question is how that would affect allocating resources to industries that provide services that provide basic necessities as they're not always enjoyable jobs. No this is the strawman you've constructed and tried to bully people into. Further, we almost had UBI under Nixon but the Democrats killed it.
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May 29, 2019 03:34
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Moridin920 posted:Like if you're a landowner in India where are you pulling the $200k USD from to purchase basic equipment? A big tractor costs like $200k-400k alone. One combine is another $400k-500k. You gonna buy a sugar cane harvester for half a mil (plus maintenance) or pay $1/day for some laborers? The software to manage a large farm will run you tens of thousands also. They buy used, shipped from the US or EU. Same with a lot of construction equipment, backhoes etc. I check a lot of used combines, balers, excavators, etc on flat racks going to Vietnam, Thailand, India, etc. Used is a hell of a lot cheaper.
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May 29, 2019 03:53
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