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No call, no show, and the interview was set up yesterday afternoon. This is the second one today. Why???? Each of these people is presumably looking for a job. They indicated interest literally 18 hours ago. And then...nothing. This happens a lot, at least here in Chile. I'd say the no-show rate for applicants is about 60%. At times like this I start thinking about what obligations we have to each other in this match making process. Hiring people sucks. Looking for a job also sucks. I would be willing to bet literally no participant on either side of the process likes going through it, yet we don't seem to be able to do any better. I think at minimum employers owe applicants who are not going to be considered a call or an email back letting them know. And from prospective employees I'd kind of appreciate it if they showed up. Or at least called. But beyond that, I'm kind of at a loss. How does this process suck and from what perspective? How can it be better? ITT let's brainstorm or bitch about that.
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May 9, 2019 15:45
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It's because they researched you online and decided they hate you and want to waste your time.
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May 9, 2019 15:47
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wateroverfire posted:No call, no show, and the interview was set up yesterday afternoon. This is the second one today. Why???? Each of these people is presumably looking for a job. They indicated interest literally 18 hours ago. And then...nothing. This happens a lot, at least here in Chile. I'd say the no-show rate for applicants is about 60%. At times like this I start thinking about what obligations we have to each other in this match making process. It can be better by abolishing capitalism, that'd be a starting point. The one time I missed a job interview was because I woke up that morning and had a horrible anxiety attack. Though because I phoned up with some dumb excuse they were OK to rearrange the interview and I ended up getting the job.
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May 9, 2019 16:22
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I got lost on the drive up to an interview once and showed up 15 minutes late and apologizing. Interview was cancelled and not rescheduled. I can see why cutting your losses and moving on to the next opportunity (where you can hopefully put your best foot forward next time) makes sense.
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May 9, 2019 16:47
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wateroverfire posted:No call, no show, and the interview was set up yesterday afternoon. This is the second one today. Why???? That might be overkill, but either way I think you might get a better success rate by giving people a bit more preparation time.
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May 9, 2019 17:08
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wateroverfire posted:No call, no show, and the interview was set up yesterday afternoon. This is the second one today. Why???? Each of these people is presumably looking for a job. They indicated interest literally 18 hours ago. And then...nothing. This happens a lot, at least here in Chile. I'd say the no-show rate for applicants is about 60%. At times like this I start thinking about what obligations we have to each other in this match making process. interviews tend to take place during the week during standard business hours, and there's a bias towards hiring folks currently employed so prospective hires have to waste their paid time off, or eat a loss in pay just to interview. I agree they should at least call if they no longer want the job, but part of this is an "effort vs position" kind of thing, and the hiring process should be appropriate for the position. Like if this is a minimum wage part time job with no real security, they shouldn't need to submit a full resume and block out an hour plus interview time. Hell, I'm currently looking to jump ship from my company and I've had a few annoying interactions ranging from this Screener: "[After phone interview] Great, we'd love to interview you in person, can we schedule something?" Me: "Sure, I'm actually going on a trip next weekend, and took a day or two off to do some prep [and have a few other interviews scheduled too] do [these dates work]? Screener:"Oh, we're actually looking for something sooner, could we meet this week instead? Let me follow up with the management you'd work for and get back to you with dates." Me: "Sure, just give me a day or two notice, since I'd need to balance my schedule. Wednesday is the only day I'm not free since I'm meeting with a client." And they never called back. A company requested I fill out and bring a generic application after my second interview. They've already seen my resume, they've already met and talked to me. Now they want a sheet with my hobbies, and 3 professional references? To silliness like a company expecting a bilingual candidate with a master's degree in an incredibly specific field, 5-10 years experience doing literally the exact same job at pretty much their company, and offering roughly 30% below industry standard for the position (which usually requires 2-5 years experience OR a bachelors in a relevant field). Coolness Averted fucked around with this message at 17:11 on May 9, 2019 |
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May 9, 2019 17:09
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wateroverfire posted:No call, no show, and the interview was set up yesterday afternoon. This is the second one today. Why???? Each of these people is presumably looking for a job. They indicated interest literally 18 hours ago. And then...nothing. This happens a lot, at least here in Chile. I'd say the no-show rate for applicants is about 60%. At times like this I start thinking about what obligations we have to each other in this match making process. What's the job you're trying to fill?
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May 9, 2019 17:29
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Helsing posted:What's the job you're trying to fill? I'm curious too. I suspect people mostly no-show for low-end jobs. I've known people who just decided not to show up for interviews for things like retail jobs because they found something else or decided they didn't like the place. Not a lot of people are going to care about being polite when it's a job that pays $12/hour or whatever. I'm going to go out on a limb and say there's nothing that can be done to solve this particular problem because people have no reason to care. Also, I guess to be more on topic with what you wateroverfire wanted this thread to be about, probably nothing can be done to improve the current job seeking process in general. It's bad in a way that goes right to the core. The resume/interview process has always been bad, but technology has evolved in a way that overwhelmingly favors employers and the labor marketplace is abysmally bad at actually putting people into jobs that they want or are well suited for. Fixing it probably means first fixing a lot of other things that are only tangentially related to hiring.
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May 9, 2019 17:39
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yeah it's also weird that there's so much drat kabuki theatre that has to go on during interviews and hiring 90% of people leaving their current job are leaving it because their current employer or supervisor sucks, or because of the dumb way wages and raises never keep up with the market rates, so you're always gonna get a better deal as a new hire with your experience and credentials vs sticking around. But you can't say that, you can't even say "I liked the company, but my boss's new boss has some bad ideas and my boss's hands were tied." You have to have maxed out your room for growth there, or be looking to learn from new experiences. They're gonna lowball you, and you both know what industry standard pay is so you need to say "I make X and would need that plus some incentive to leave, but incentives and perks such as blah blah blah or good benefits can factor into that." but X isn't really what you're making, it's actually your target salary or closer to market rate, so you can actually haggle a decent pay. it's a transactional loving relationship, but both parties have to feign it's more. One party is just far more on the hook for pretending
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May 9, 2019 18:09
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Also at least compared to the US, isn't flakiness more common in Chile? Like, no-shows or showing up late is more common in general, not just for interviews?
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May 9, 2019 18:19
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Helsing posted:What's the job you're trying to fill? It's for a sales assistant. Pay is a little above average for that sort of thing here, which is (take home) about $1,000 per month. For context, minimum wage here is I want to say about $350 per month and the average wage outside the mining industry and some multinationals is around $800 (after taxes, deductions for healthcare, etc). Indeterminacy posted:As a general guideline, I prefer to give a week's notice for interviews. That way the interviewee has time to ask their current employer for time off, make childcare and travel arrangements, plan questions and do some research. That's a good point and something I hadn't thought about. I was thinking about it in terms of people wanting to get through the process as fast as possible but...yeah... maybe people who are not working also have other things to do Paradoxish posted:I'm curious too. You're probably right, which is depressing af. Though I think technology, at least in hiring, is not doing either employees or employers a lot of favors. For instance, the biggest online job portal here, laborum.com, digitizes peoples' uploaded resumes and often butchers them so badly it's hard to tell they were ever written by humans. And then apparantly doesn't show the applicants how their information comes across. So trawling through that information ends up being done the old fashioned way - just eyeballing each resume - or a ton of worthy candidates get discarded. I think in this specific venue workers need to be better educated, too, in how to make themselves stand out.
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May 9, 2019 18:21
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Cicero posted:Also at least compared to the US, isn't flakiness more common in Chile? Like, no-shows or showing up late is more common in general, not just for interviews? Yeah, that is definitely a thing to consider. I was reading a report for a mining consultancy about productivity and they had a figure comparing time requirements for the same job in different countries. The US was the comparison unit and like...Canada was 2x that, and Chile was 5x that. That's pretty much right in my experience.
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May 9, 2019 18:23
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Coolness Averted posted:yeah it's also weird that there's so much drat kabuki theatre that has to go on during interviews and hiring The state prepares you for this with 12 years of compulsory instruction on how to lie, fake obedience and perform repetitive tasks with minimal effort. Your prospective boss just wants you to demonstrate that you learned the correct lessons.
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May 9, 2019 18:24
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I'm not sure looking for work and hiring people suck in remotely commensurable ways or degrees. Like your applicant is taking time out of their life and work to come to you in order to make you money. You are being paid to find out whether or not you can extract value from this applicant. It's kind of a one way relationship. Seems weird to say "yes but they have obligations to us, the people looking to make money off them, before we even give them anything" OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:35 on May 9, 2019 |
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May 9, 2019 18:32
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You aren't paying enough. If you were paying what the work was worth people would show up. I cancelled a potential interview at the last minute last week. The position required a bachelors degree and 4-5 years industry experience, pay was listed as 'negotiable' or 'based on experience' or some such nonsense. Had to fill out their stupid online form in addition to sending my resume, cover letter, and 3 professional references. Did a phone interview that went great but they punted all questions about pay/benefits to an in person interview. They called to schedule the in-person interview and I said that I wouldn't be moving forward until I've been told how much the position paid and what the benefits were. They waffled but finally stated that they wanted to pay $14/hour. A couple dollars over minimum wage for a bachelors degree and (in my case) 7 years industry experience. I told them to forget the whole thing as I'm currently making more on unemployment. They knew that what they were paying was hosed and they knew people would be rightfully pissed when they found out, so they kicked the can to the very last possible second when you've already invested tons of labor and time just getting to that point (and they could pressure you to your face). Looking for a job is 10,000x shittier than hiring, it isn't even comparable (and yes I've done both).
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May 9, 2019 18:43
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Alternatively if you don't want to pay more, consider increasing unemployment, underempoyment, or depressing wages in the economy generally, along with decreasing the viability of self sustaining labour outside the wage economy, that will make people more desperate for work and make your job much easier, plus you can pay them less.
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May 9, 2019 18:47
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Prokhor Zakharov posted:You aren't paying enough. If you were paying what the work was worth people would show up. I don't have the pay listed on the ad, either. =P I'm curious how long you've been looking? Just straight-up not wasting time on opportunities that don't seem worth your time is a solid strategy but you also have to make sure your expectations are tuned realisticly.
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May 9, 2019 18:49
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OwlFancier posted:Alternatively if you don't want to pay more, consider increasing unemployment, underempoyment, or depressing wages in the economy generally, along with decreasing the viability of self sustaining labour outside the wage economy, that will make people more desperate for work and make your job much easier, plus you can pay them less. I'm not the kind of capitalist who can mess with any of those settings.
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May 9, 2019 18:50
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The one time I've done this in recent memory, it was because the job turned out to be a MLM on further research. 
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May 9, 2019 18:50
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wateroverfire posted:I'm not the kind of capitalist who can mess with any of those settings. Perhaps this might inform why different countries have different levels of willingness to turn up to your job interviews, however.
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May 9, 2019 18:51
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OwlFancier posted:Perhaps this might inform why different countries have different levels of willingness to turn up to your job interviews, however. If anything the unemployed have less explicit security here than in the US though, so idk? edit: Though thinking about it, who knows, maybe? People here tend to live with their parents way longer and have closer family and more extended family, so maybe people just don't feel as much pressure in general. Certainly hustle for work is less part of Chilean culture than American culture. wateroverfire fucked around with this message at 18:55 on May 9, 2019 |
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May 9, 2019 18:52
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Prokhor Zakharov posted:You aren't paying enough. If you were paying what the work was worth people would show up. yeah that's another fun thing, the whole masking compensation shtick. Out of the 30 or so places I've applied and 5 or 6 that have headhunted me this go round, only about 10 have upfront disclosed a compensation range in their posting or solicitation. All of the others won't go into that until the screener, and most wanna play "Show me yours and I'll show you mine" first, and there's a bunch I didn't bother with for the same reason. I'm just glad I'm currently employed so can flat out refuse to go beyond the screener call or phone interview without knowing they'll offer me at least my asking price. Coolness Averted fucked around with this message at 19:03 on May 9, 2019 |
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May 9, 2019 19:00
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wateroverfire posted:If anything the unemployed have less explicit security here than in the US though, so idk? Yeah a degree of social safety net (even if it's more family or community than from the state) will also influence things. Oh have you found out if your going rate is competitive locally, rather than just compared to the national or industry average? That's been something I've seen too. for example I live in a high cost of living area, so it doesn't matter if a wage is higher than industry standard if it doesn't cover rent here.
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May 9, 2019 19:03
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What about practical alternatives? Do people cohabit in larger families more often? Do they work unpaid in exchange for keep? If you're in a rural area is all the land enclosed/do people grow/hunt much? Is squatting or unsanctioned housing much of a thing? If people have places to live and food to eat without involving money then working for money becomes less attractive. State welfare is more of a thing because all the land is owned and policed and because people are displaced into environments away from their support networks such as into/between cities for work and once you start doing that people are reliant on cash to survive rather than having anything else to fall back on. It's also encouraged by the smart capitalist because what it effectively is is a subsidy to private business, because it all goes immediately into the local supermarket and landlord's pockets. Cost of living is also relevant, as is city design, if people need cars to work for example then welfare means less, because it doesn't buy you much. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:08 on May 9, 2019 |
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May 9, 2019 19:04
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wateroverfire posted:I don't have the pay listed on the ad, either. =P Well there's your problem. You're obfuscating important details and that sets off red flags for applicants. There's no reason to hide pay unless its crap/subpar. Also I'm not the one in this discussion that needs to realistically tune his expectations.
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May 9, 2019 19:09
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Prokhor Zakharov posted:Well there's your problem. You're obfuscating important details and that sets off red flags for applicants. There's no reason to hide pay unless its crap/subpar. I'm not attacking you, man. Sorry if it came off that way. I'm just curious how many potential matches you're discarding to find the one that meets your expectations. Maybe it would be better to put, say, the midpoint of the range out front. It kind of gives up a point to bargain around but at least that way everybody knows what to expect. OwlFancier posted:What about practical alternatives? Do people cohabit in larger families more often? Do they work unpaid in exchange for keep? If you're in a rural area is all the land enclosed/do people grow/hunt much? Is squatting or unsanctioned housing much of a thing? If people have places to live and food to eat without involving money then working for money becomes less attractive. It's Santiago so about as urban as it gets. Public transport is pretty good here - most of my workers don't drive and don't need to. I wouldn't if I didn't sometimes need the car during the day. It's very common for families to live together and for kids not to leave their parents houses until they get married. You can also live veeeery cheaply here if you're not trying to live an "international" lifestyle. Coolness Averted posted:Yeah a degree of social safety net (even if it's more family or community than from the state) will also influence things. Locally, we're competitive. In general we pay more than small-medium sized businesses in the same market for the same position. We pay less than mining (because mining is either swimming in money or dead, depending) and less than the multinationals (who tend to get the top-tier people because of that and prestige). I'd like to be able to match them but we're not there at this point.
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May 9, 2019 19:30
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wateroverfire posted:Though I think technology, at least in hiring, is not doing either employees or employers a lot of favors. For instance, the biggest online job portal here, laborum.com, digitizes peoples' uploaded resumes and often butchers them so badly it's hard to tell they were ever written by humans. And then apparantly doesn't show the applicants how their information comes across. So trawling through that information ends up being done the old fashioned way - just eyeballing each resume - or a ton of worthy candidates get discarded. I think in this specific venue workers need to be better educated, too, in how to make themselves stand out. Having done a decent amount of consulting with businesses on the filtering side of the hiring process, I'm going to say that the eyeball approach isn't super common in large companies in the US. Even with smaller companies, an absolutely massive number of resumes are automatically filtered and discarded without ever being seen by a human being. A lot of online job portals are sold as being primarily for the benefit of applicants (look how many jobs you can apply to! It's so easy!), but having applicants who are essentially spamming out resumes absolutely shifts the balance more in the favor of employers. That said, I don't think this actually results in good hiring outcomes so I don't believe that it's actually beneficial to employers. It makes it easier to hire and it gives applicants drastically less power over the process, but I'd go so far as to say that it's bad for everyone involved. It encourages a box checking approach to hiring that severely limits applicant pools. It also forces people who might be well-suited to a particular job to take lower-end, fall-back positions because eventually the pressure to find a job outweighs the desire to find a good job. The easier it is for a huge number of people to apply to any given position, the more companies are forced to filter those applications to avoid overwhelming hiring managers.
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May 9, 2019 19:38
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wateroverfire posted:I'm not attacking you, man. Sorry if it came off that way. I'm just curious how many potential matches you're discarding to find the one that meets your expectations. I'm discarding however many it takes. Also, bargaining is dumb as gently caress and an absolute chore that does nothing but let you take advantage of people who don't know how (or, more likely, are afraid) to advocate for themselves. Maybe just do the ethical thing and advertise/pay whatever the top of your range is and save yourself and everyone else a lot of headache?
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May 9, 2019 22:55
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Prokhor Zakharov posted:Maybe just do the ethical thing and advertise/pay whatever the top of your range is and save yourself and everyone else a lot of headache? Spoiler alert - he will not do this and will find a million and one excuses as to why he can't do this one simple trick that would immediately end his woes.
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May 9, 2019 22:57
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Why don't you conduct a little experiment and put your wage range in your advertisement and see how many no shows you get?
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May 10, 2019 00:30
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there's probably very little in your store worth stealing, so the smart ones realize they're never gonna hit parity when it comes to the value of thier labour and what they'll take home at the end of the day.
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May 10, 2019 00:53
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When I was interviewing while working I had a few close calls where I could have missed phone interviews because bullshit came up at work and my boss was unreasonable (which is why I was interviewing in the first place). Things got a lot easier when I quit after my boss tried to cut my pay and raise the expected hours of my position, but I also had a nice safety net and a spouse whose job covered many expenses and our health insurance, which very few people have. I did appreciated that everyone I interviewed with post quit accepted "the company was failing and they tried to cut my salary and raise my expected hours to stay afloat" as a very reasonable reason to quit.
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May 10, 2019 01:15
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WampaLord posted:Spoiler alert - he will not do this and will find a million and one excuses as to why he can't do this one simple trick that would immediately end his woes. Wait till he finds out that their salaries are supposed to go up like every year!
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May 10, 2019 01:32
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They probably found a better position elsewhere. People are expensive, and you can't just pay peanuts for whatever because you really really want to line your stockholders' pockets a little more.
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May 10, 2019 02:06
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One time while in college I went to the wrong building for a job interview for some phone tech support job. Got interviewed and they were asking me all these weird questions about car insurance in California and once I realized I was at the wrong place they still offered me a job that I didn't take and just went home. Man that was quite an afternoon.
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May 10, 2019 03:04
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I've literally never had a company that said 'we'll contact you in ____ about whether you got it or not' actually do so, so if I already got something myself in the meantime: gently caress em, turnabout is fair play.
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May 10, 2019 08:35
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reignonyourparade posted:I've literally never had a company that said 'we'll contact you in ____ about whether you got it or not' actually do so, so if I already got something myself in the meantime: gently caress em, turnabout is fair play. Aye, companies almost never get in touch to say you didn't get the job. Why should I give them a courtesy they won't bother extending to me? gently caress 'em
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May 10, 2019 10:01
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hello internet posted:One time while in college I went to the wrong building for a job interview for some phone tech support job. Got interviewed and they were asking me all these weird questions about car insurance in California and once I realized I was at the wrong place they still offered me a job that I didn't take and just went home. Man that was quite an afternoon. As a computer toucher I once went for what I thought was an embedded software job interview, but it turned out that the recruiter lied and it was for a lead web dev position, making about 30% more than I was expecting to get. I did get offered the job despite having zero professional webdev experience, but I passed on it since seriously gently caress webdev. And I even showed up half an hour late.
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May 10, 2019 11:22
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One time I had a job interview but the door knob on the door to my room broke when it was locked and I was trapped until my housemates came back for the day. I was a uni student at the time and it was just a cheapo retail job so w/e.
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May 10, 2019 11:28
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I essentially just negged an employer a few weeks ago. They reached out first via LinkedIn and althought it was a slightly better position than mine, the company itself was way worse (HR consulting nobody cares about instead of leading software vendor, Glassdoor score lower by more than a point) so I was only mildly curious what they might offer. So basically I just made them work around my schedule and took my time with the interviews, and in the end none of us were super happy about the fit so it went nowhere anyway.
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May 10, 2019 12:24
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