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Ginette Reno posted:The show forgetting that it's a medieval/feudal type setting was one of the many really dumb things about the past few Got seasons. To be fair the other two players in that game were Jaime and Tyrion. One has only banged his sister and the other knows all the whores in all the brothels by name. Of course they'd laugh at her. Still, there is a definite drop in quality when the books weren't propping them up. Another change I remembered was how Robb ended up getting involved with Jayne Westerling: he was wounded and she healed him. He banged her and then married her to keep her honor. That's still dumb, but much more agreeable than just seeing an exotic hot chick and ignoring your vows to another house entirely. There was NO reason for that change to be made that I can see that added anything to the show.
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May 30, 2019 16:42
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hobbesmaster posted:Shes wants to be a knight, not a noble lady. Its a reminder that shes not really "one of the guys" She does, but that still doesn't mean Tyrion and Jaime would be all smug about her not having had sex in the first place. It's a stupid thing to hold over her head when it's literally the expectation for a noblewoman in Westeros.
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May 30, 2019 16:45
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Ned was mostly hosed over by Robert dying at the most inopportune moment, that particular hunt's outcome was far from a sure thing.
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May 30, 2019 17:03
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its implied that jeyne seduced him as part of war goals, or whatever the gently caress. also the biggest fuckup ned did was naming beric leader of the party sent to capture the mountain , instead of loras who was literally begging to go and set the reach against casterly rock and bring them into the war on his side
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May 30, 2019 17:03
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Ginette Reno posted:
There would definitely be war if he moved against Cersei and the children in any event. Tywin would never accept it. Depending on the timing, a preemptive coup would also make it harder to play his regency off as legitimate, and thus make it harder to rally other lords - if he moves first, it looks more like a power grab by the Northern heathen. imho the whole process of deliberating over which characters are dumbest (which in my experience is almost unique to this fandom) is not that worthwhile yeah you can do it and it's kinda fun, but fixating on it prob distracts from the larger pattern that these are often lose/lose situations - the only way to win is not to play, etc. GRRM's goal is probably not to provide some thesis on the most effective smart guy leadership, it's more likely to stew in the innate destructiveness of war and political hierarchy. Ned and Cat were doomed as soon as they went South, Robb was doomed as soon as he marched on the Riverlands, Jon was doomed no matter what he did, etc. That's the point, moreso than "drat, honor is dumb" is the point. We see this in the fact that everyone who plays the game gets hosed eventually, regardless of how smart or ruthless or canny they're supposed to be. every time someone points out 1 specific decision they think hosed X character, i think of a lot of surrounding things about the scenario that indicate they were probably hosed either way THAT SAID it is probably worth considering why ned would turn down the two coup offers. But I don't remember the exact ordering of events he had one coup offer from Renly and one from Littlefinger, right?
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May 30, 2019 17:18
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drat if i keep going like this im gonna end up writing an Edmure stan effortpost
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May 30, 2019 17:20
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violent sex idiot posted:its implied that jeyne seduced him as part of war goals, or whatever the gently caress. also the biggest fuckup ned did was naming beric leader of the party sent to capture the mountain , instead of loras who was literally begging to go and set the reach against casterly rock and bring them into the war on his side I'm curious where this was implied. I don't remember anything about Jeyne from the books other than the parts about getting married to Robb and such. The only thing I remember is that she wasn't accounted for by the end of book 5 still.
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May 30, 2019 17:22
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chaosapiant posted:I'm curious where this was implied. I don't remember anything about Jeyne from the books other than the parts about getting married to Robb and such. The only thing I remember is that she wasn't accounted for by the end of book 5 still. The Westerlings are Lannister bannermen. The theory is that Tywin had them use their daughter to gently caress Robb to ruin the Frey alliance and break up his coalition. I think there was something about her mom making her abort the baby after robb died but I haven’t read in a while.
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May 30, 2019 17:27
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chaosapiant posted:I'm curious where this was implied. I don't remember anything about Jeyne from the books other than the parts about getting married to Robb and such. The only thing I remember is that she wasn't accounted for by the end of book 5 still. jeyne deliberately seducing robb to destroy the Frey alliance is just a fan theory so far as i know we know jeyne's mother snuck messages out to the Lannisters and provided information that was used to set up the Red Wedding, but jeyne herself has never been implicated by anything (this deal didn't work out real good for jeyne's mother, since her eldest son was killed in the massacre) she's also probably accounted for in book 5 - the idea that the blackfish snuck her out of Riverrun using her sister as a decoy is also a fan theory, based on a couple lines of inconsistent description. It's possible, but also could've been GRRM changing the description to suit a different PoV (or just GRRM not paying attention)
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May 30, 2019 17:29
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TK-42-1 posted:The Westerlings are Lannister bannermen. The theory is that Tywin had them use their daughter to gently caress Robb to ruin the Frey alliance and break up his coalition. I think there was something about her mom making her abort the baby after robb died but I haven’t read in a while. I don't know, Tywin doesn't know Robb well enough to assume that even if Jeyne hosed him, he'd marry her. I'd imagine the communications with Jeyne's mom were more along the lines of "send us information and we'll make sure your daughter isn't killed at the Frey wedding.
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May 30, 2019 17:39
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Ned's only mistake was bringing Jory Cassel to the capital instead of twenty good men.
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May 30, 2019 18:01
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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One thing from the books that always struck me as endlessly odd was the Night's Watch. Is there any historical precedent, even vaguely, to an organization where you send your criminals, even the worst ones, and they get not only a full pardon but military training, weapons, armor and horses? In such a vast, sparse place as the North, deserting would be as easy as waiting for a lull and stealing a horse, some clothes from a peasant along the way, and picking your new name and home. They may send people after you, but in such a vast place and with no mugshots or other way to really ascertain identity, odds of them ever finding you would be nil. It'd need so much manpower that 90% of the whole force would be about chasing deserters. Sending ravens would only warn the castles, and even those would only get a rough description. And how many ravens can they even send? And that's not even counting the very real chance of entire garrisons of convicts killing their commanders and becoming merry bands of bandits and marauders. Eastwatch-by-the-Sea in particular would be a rat line for fleeing across the sea, or just fleeing north and becoming better-armed Wildling raiders. I can think of penal battalions, but they were always part of a larger, overseeing military structure that kept them unarmed until the eve of battle (and even during battle) and used them mostly as cannon fodder/poo poo-tier jobs. They do mention that the Watch was a honorable calling in the past and attracted more nobles, but even that is an issue, as having a lot of lordlings accustomed to a decent life freezing their noses off and eating salt cod and jerking off would not be the most stable of situations. All in all, it'd be like running an international penitentiary AND a frontier miltary outpost on the honor system.
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May 30, 2019 18:45
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Sephyr posted:All in all, it'd be like running an international penitentiary AND a frontier miltary outpost on the honor system. Well the poo poo that goes down at Craster's shows how quickly the Night's Watch can fall apart when given a chance. Then there's also the mutiny against Jon. It's held together by the few men of honor that join it. Most of these are put into positions of authority what with Jeor Mormont, Benjen, Maester Aemon, etc. Also not all the criminals are necessarily awful people. Some would get sent there for poaching or stealing. That's a lot different from the rapists or murderers that join. Also I could be wrong but isn't the North mostly huge and empty? One could flee the wall but there's probably not a lot of nearby places to get to on limited resources. The places near Castle Black are Northern towns/cities that are probably pretty insular and outsiders would be recognized at most of them.
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May 30, 2019 19:32
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Mike N Eich posted:It’s fun and accurate to dunk on the Starks for being stupid, but the fact they’re the most decent overlords in Westeros does have some payoff. And honestly, GRRM had to reverse Mary Sue his villains in order to get them to triumph time and again. There’s really no reason why the Lannister’s should continue to hold King’s landing other than the fact GRRM Deus Ex Machinas a bunch of poo poo to keep them there. The big thing in the books is how far people are willing to go to hold onto power, and the recurring motif is whether they're willing to kill children; the "heroic" characters aren't. I imagine GURM was inspired by stuff like the Princes in the Tower (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princes_in_the_Tower). This comes up again and again in the books: Ned has to keep Jon's identity secret, he refuses to send assassins after Dany, Jon saves Mance's kids, Davos saves Edric Storm. Meanwhile Tywin and Gregor bash babies' heads in left and right. It may be a bit contrived but the idea (I think I haven't read the books in a long time) is if things start to go pear-shaped Renly may just flip out and have the Lannister kids executed. Or he may want to do that from the start to eliminate rivals. This is also why Ned warns Cersei instead of just getting up on a box and shouting that they're incest babies.
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May 30, 2019 19:40
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In my brain it's like England sending criminals to Australia. It's so far away no one really gives a poo poo but with the added bonus where if they try to come back they get insta-yeeted. idk what happened to any Australians that tried to come back I assume it was just considered impossible and not worried about.
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May 30, 2019 19:42
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Ginette Reno posted:Well the poo poo that goes down at Craster's shows how quickly the Night's Watch can fall apart when given a chance. Then there's also the mutiny against Jon. Said men of honor would be killed the moment they picked the wrong person to stand a watch. And the fact that some criminals are not bad actually makes it _more_ unstable, as it means a faction of people who feel they were unreasonably punished while nobles and others get away clean....only now they also have weapons and the skill to use them! Incidents like the Mormont murder and such should happen every other month in that kind of organization. According to the books, Dorne is least populous of the kingdoms. The North has a decent bit of people in it (as fits for it to have so many Houses of size and a 20k+ army), just spread out. But there are still villages, mountain clans, and such (even if my personal belief is that GRRM invented the mountain clans out of nowhere in the last book just to give Stannis a manpower boost and keep that plotline going).
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May 30, 2019 19:53
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TK-42-1 posted:The Westerlings are Lannister bannermen. The theory is that Tywin had them use their daughter to gently caress Robb to ruin the Frey alliance and break up his coalition. I think there was something about her mom making her abort the baby after robb died but I haven’t read in a while. Jeyne definitely wasn't in on the Robb murder in the books, in Feast she is still wearing mourning colours after the siege of Riverrun even though it's well past the expected time to still be in mourning and she stares daggers at her family when they talk to Jaime
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May 30, 2019 20:02
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Intel&Sebastian posted:In my brain it's like England sending criminals to Australia. It's so far away no one really gives a poo poo but with the added bonus where if they try to come back they get insta-yeeted. People sent to Australia served 4-7 year sentences and then they could return home. Most just choose to stay in Australia because you got a free plot of land and life was just better than back in England.
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May 30, 2019 20:05
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goddamn England has been stupid as gently caress for so long
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May 30, 2019 20:46
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So I was reading the appendixs last night cause I'm a nerd like that and I have what I think is an original theory about the books that are never coming out. The appendix seem to hint at a possible Reach Civil War] We are constantly told through the books that the Reach is the most powerful region and the most powerful houses are the Tyrells, the Florents of Brightwater Keep, the Hightowers in Oldtown and the Tarlys. During Clash of Kings the Florents declare for Stannis because he's married to a Florent, but then Stannis eventually kills the Lord of the family (alester) for a +10 wind magic bonus. The next time the Florents really come up is in King's landing when they have their lands stripped due to the rebelling and their castle granted to Garlan Tyrell, the second Tyrell son. I dont think it comes up again except for Garlan leaving to try to take back Brightwater Keep, but the appendix have a bunch of characters that arent even mentioned in the series that could come into play with this plotline. Apparently Alester had a son and a bunch of daughters that are married into very strong Reach houses. The appendix says his son Alekyne fled to Oldtown, where his sister Rhea is Lady Hightower. If it was just this I wouldnt have thought much of it but it turns his other sister is Melissa Tarly and married to Randyll Tarly. It seems a bit too coincidental that this character never mentioned yet that has a claim on the second best seat in the Reach just happens to be a brother in law to the Lords of the third and fourth best seats. Would the rest of the Reach lords be cool with the Tyrells controlling both Highgarden and Brightwater? A Typical Goon fucked around with this message at 20:51 on May 30, 2019 |
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May 30, 2019 20:49
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Just as a heads' up, unless y'all have some good reasons for me to change my mind, I'm probably going to be closing this thread in a week or two just to give everything some, well, closure. It seems like it's time. If people want to make a new megathread after that that's fine, this one's just been going since 2011 and now that the show's over it feels like we're in a new phase. If everyone thinks that's a bad idea and this specific thread should stay let me know.
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May 30, 2019 21:23
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Katt posted:People sent to Australia served 4-7 year sentences and then they could return home. Most just choose to stay in Australia because you got a free plot of land and life was just better than back in England. also you'd have to pay for a boat trip which was not cheap I mean, a horse is one thing, a three month or more boat trip is another
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May 30, 2019 21:25
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Just as a heads' up, unless y'all have some good reasons for me to change my mind, I'm probably going to be closing this thread in a week or two just to give everything some, well, closure. It seems like it's time. We need a place to laugh when GRRM quietly ignores coming up empty at that con he promised to have the next book premiere at.
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May 30, 2019 21:30
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gently caress it just do it now
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May 30, 2019 21:31
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This thread should live as long as the absolute fucker breathes.
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May 30, 2019 21:46
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:This thread should live as long as the absolute fucker breathes.
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May 30, 2019 21:47
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imo it can't be closed til a. winds comes out and a new mega is made b. grrm dies so til he dies
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May 30, 2019 21:49
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Just as a heads' up, unless y'all have some good reasons for me to change my mind, I'm probably going to be closing this thread in a week or two just to give everything some, well, closure. It seems like it's time. The book series isn't finished, go away and let us have our
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May 30, 2019 22:08
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:This thread should live as long as the absolute fucker breathes. Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until his death.
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May 30, 2019 22:09
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Kylaer posted:The book series isn't finished, look into your heart you know the truth of this
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May 30, 2019 22:17
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We've weathered Viconia the Virtuous and LooseChanj the Lecher and we'll weather you, Threadslayer.
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May 30, 2019 22:23
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:look into your heart I've been shitposting in this thread and its precursors for longer than you've been an SA member, I know exactly what the truth is. But the wellspring of hatred never runs dry.
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May 30, 2019 22:26
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:This thread should live as long as the absolute fucker breathes.
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May 30, 2019 22:26
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Is there another Ice and Fire thread I can go to and banter about these old books? Because I like doing that. I didn't even know this thread was about the show since that's not the title of the thread.
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May 30, 2019 22:29
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YaketySass posted:Ned was mostly hosed over by Robert dying at the most inopportune moment, that particular hunt's outcome was far from a sure thing. Yeah I always thought that was a weird way to assassinate someone - get them very drunk and count on a giant boar to gore them to death? That seems very....convenient
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May 30, 2019 22:35
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Mike N Eich posted:Yeah I always thought that was a weird way to assassinate someone - get them very drunk and count on a giant boar to gore them to death? That seems very....convenient Varys straight-up says that if it hadn't been the boar, it would have been a fall from his horse or a stray arrow or something more explicitly murdery.
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May 30, 2019 22:36
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chaosapiant posted:Is there another Ice and Fire thread I can go to and banter about these old books? Because I like doing that. I didn't even know this thread was about the show since that's not the title of the thread. Yeah this thread has actually been talking about the books quite a bit recently, seems weird to close it now
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May 30, 2019 22:56
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Intel&Sebastian posted:goddamn England has been stupid as gently caress for so long Think of all the economic development and science that could have happened if they weren't so drat dumb.
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May 30, 2019 22:58
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chaosapiant posted:Is there another Ice and Fire thread I can go to and banter about these old books? Because I like doing that. I didn't even know this thread was about the show since that's not the title of the thread. It's about both. Most people don't so much "Talk" about the books as "Vent" though. The show has pretty much dominated discussion for the past . . . when did the last book come out?
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May 30, 2019 23:03
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Just as a heads' up, unless y'all have some good reasons for me to change my mind, I'm probably going to be closing this thread in a week or two just to give everything some, well, closure. It seems like it's time. This is the only ending we will ever get
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May 30, 2019 23:07
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