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FactsAreUseless posted:It's not as if this can't happen - and it does happen - in leftist spaces Which is likely why the American fascist movement is currently screaming about "1st Amendment Rights" in response to being banned from a lot of public forums - they recognize the threat of losing the platforms they use to normalize their views. Of course, they also seem to just LOOOOOOOOOVE companies being able to do what they want, until it impacts them in a harmful way, then their tune changes. Of course, the 1st Amendment doesn't say poo poo about blocking access to privately owned forums, so they can all go pound sand. Arivia posted:Everyone makes mistakes, and everyone's learning, and that's good and okay. Your experience is as an individual, having individual interactions with other people. What I'm responding to is a public statement put out as a commitment to inclusion - something that the writers should have researched and carefully developed. Using "transgendered" shows they didn't research it well. That's my issue, and that's why I'm frustrated. The medium is completely different - putting out that public statement is different from a personal conversation. If you and I were having a conversation I'd correct you politely and explain why, but it's okay to make mistakes and explain things. When it comes to a statement, the devs should have learned and known better already. That's a completely fair point, you're right. Most of where I was coming from was the aggressive tone you seemed to be taking with people on here, which admittedly, managed to get me a bit irritated with you - but I tried to take a minute and type when I was more cool-headed, and I'm glad that I succeeded in not coming off like a shitlord. The "point" I was trying to make (I don't really like that phrase, but I can't think of another one at the moment), is that taking a really aggressive tone in a forum full of people who don't personally know you, and who can't really sit down and have an intimate, face to face discussion, tends to just irritate people and drive them away, even when they're receptive to your views. Your anger and frustration are completely justified, and you have every right to express yourself that way, but I think it ultimately harms your cause. It's total bullshit that people in marginalized groups really can't get too mad without negative repercussions, because they're the ones who have the most reason, and the most right, to; but it seems like that's often the sad reality we live in. Again, my perspective is coming from my history as a strait, white, middle-class, cis male from a conservative area, so take it with a grain of salt, but I like to think it still has some value. When you're looking to make change, it's the "normative" people who don't agree with you, but don't necessarily actively disagree with you, that can be your best targets - because they're likely your easiest converts, and can better work within the system to make change (goddamn, even just typing that makes me depressed about society). However, they're also some of the easiest to turn away, because they're still "part of the system" that is oppressing you, and it's a hell of a lot easier for them to go with it than against it. Sorry, that's super poorly written, and sounds a little preachy even to me, but I hope the core message gets across; people want to be allies; make it easier for them, not harder. Feel free to PM me, I think I'd actually really enjoy having an extended conversation.
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May 30, 2019 19:20
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FactsAreUseless posted:I just want to be aware of the fact that I have a red star and I don't want to disrupt the conversation by dismissing anyone's experience. You're doing good work, I think the vast majority of people reading this are genuinely glad that you've been chiming in.
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May 30, 2019 19:23
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BoneMonkey posted:We agree, but I'm saying let's pick our targets here. I'm all for being rude to motherfuckers hell I was pretty rude to all of you. But maybe let's give our own the benefit of the doubt first before unloading on them. I just want to point out that Arivia was just venting in this thread and not actually unloading on the Lancer guys. Giving the benefit of the doubt to self-declared allies when they gently caress up is fine, but they also have the responsability to step up and fix their stuff when they get called out. Calling them out is still important
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May 30, 2019 19:29
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Broken Record Talk posted:You're doing good work, I think the vast majority of people reading this are genuinely glad that you've been chiming in.
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May 30, 2019 19:34
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Pacho posted:I just want to point out that Arivia was just venting in this thread and not actually unloading on the Lancer guys. Giving the benefit of the doubt to self-declared allies when they gently caress up is fine, but they also have the responsability to step up and fix their stuff when they get called out. Calling them out is still important It's a good system for game masters to flex their anti-fascist tendencies; examples being the majority of randomly generated scenarios deal with toppling slave-holding governments and the official module deals with trying to build a better future after Space Vietnam. The mech corporations have a lot of gee whiz toys and the fiction is consistent in portraying this as "these are still weapons manufacturers propping up systemized violence and your choice of private mercenaries/eugenics/colonization, and these are bad things," letting players dunk on whatever they fancy trying to dismantle.
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May 30, 2019 19:40
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FactsAreUseless posted:It's barely enforced. America really, really, really doesn't like disabled people. We don't want them in our communities, our businesses, our families. People will do a lot to push out the disabled. So while the law recognizes the need for regulation and accommodation, there is little to no political will to actually enforce it. This administration is also extremely anti-disability, and it's safe to assume the executive branch (specifically the Justice Department IIRC) will do nothing to protect disabled people in any sort of ADA dispute. I just got back from Japan and was pretty amazed at how much work they put into having sidewalks optimized for the blind/seeing-impaired. They're also light-years ahead of us in wheelchair accessibility, including having people in subway stations who put ramps out when the train stops for wheelchairs to get on and off the trains.
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May 30, 2019 19:40
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The Lancer people got back to me on Twitter, seemed legitimately disappointed with themselves for the oversight and have made the correction. They also indicated that they'd heard from several people today about the issue.
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May 30, 2019 19:43
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moths posted:The Lancer people got back to me on Twitter, seemed legitimately disappointed with themselves for the oversight and have made the correction. They also indicated that they'd heard from several people today about the issue. Excellent.
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May 30, 2019 19:53
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LashLightning posted:I unironically would love this. To be honest, I don't think the bodies are too unwomanly, you'd probably only need more feminine heads. I haven't seen a decent set of helmeted female heads for 'guard online, though. Victoria Miniatures probably do some, but ordering from Australia to the UK... Anvil Industry have started a range of female soldiers, at long last and they look pretty good (and are largely compatible with their existing range). The range is still small, but their stuff is consistently great.
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May 30, 2019 19:53
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Pacho posted:I just want to point out that Arivia was just venting in this thread and not actually unloading on the Lancer guys. Giving the benefit of the doubt to self-declared allies when they gently caress up is fine, but they also have the responsability to step up and fix their stuff when they get called out. Calling them out is still important I agree with all of this.
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May 30, 2019 19:59
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Broken Record Talk posted:Which is likely why the American fascist movement is currently screaming about "1st Amendment Rights" in response to being banned from a lot of public forums - they recognize the threat of losing the platforms they use to normalize their views. This is correct, but their latest "legal" attack is to claim that these companies de-platforming them are somehow not in compliance with section 230, which lets them act as a platform for third party content while not being liable for it (which some exceptions). Not unlike the rash of "tortious interference" babble and lawsuits, its garbage; "neutral platforms" are well within their rights to curate content. But it hasn't stopped wingnuts from masturbating to the idea that there's some combination of magic legal words that will make facebook suddenly transform into a "publisher" and then drown in lawsuits for...some reason.
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May 30, 2019 20:08
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Desiden posted:This is correct, but their latest "legal" attack is to claim that these companies de-platforming them are somehow not in compliance with section 230, which lets them act as a platform for third party content while not being liable for it (which some exceptions). Not unlike the rash of "tortious interference" babble and lawsuits, its garbage; "neutral platforms" are well within their rights to curate content. But it hasn't stopped wingnuts from masturbating to the idea that there's some combination of magic legal words that will make facebook suddenly transform into a "publisher" and then drown in lawsuits for...some reason. In fairness, the status of Facebook as a publisher was actually a topic of some contention when they had that one Congressional hearing a while back, though I believe the lawsuits that were filed after that matter have yet to go anywhere. Mors Rattus fucked around with this message at 20:29 on May 30, 2019 |
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May 30, 2019 20:19
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Desiden posted:But it hasn't stopped wingnuts from masturbating to the idea that there's some combination of magic legal words that will... Sovereign. Citizen. Checkmate. 
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May 30, 2019 20:25
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moths posted:The Lancer people got back to me on Twitter, seemed legitimately disappointed with themselves for the oversight and have made the correction. They also indicated that they'd heard from several people today about the issue. An effort to make change happen is worth about 1000 pages of forum posts about how change should happen. Nice job.
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May 30, 2019 20:48
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Yvonmukluk posted:Anvil Industry have started a range of female soldiers, at long last and they look pretty good (and are largely compatible with their existing range). The range is still small, but their stuff is consistently great. Between Anvil and Victoria there are a lot of really, really high quality miniatures available for folks who want to take a step away from what GW sells. I think it's great.
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May 30, 2019 20:49
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Broken Record Talk posted:Sovereign. Citizen. I'm still astounded that there isn't a clear P&P to sovcit pipeline, considering they follow similar schools of thought applied to different contexts. It's only a small leap from "of course I get a bonus on this reflex save there is a chair between me and the dragon" to "you can't sue me i am unable to be prosecuted under admiralty law"
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May 30, 2019 20:53
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Maneck posted:An effort to make change happen is worth about 1000 pages of forum posts about how change should happen. Nice job. I mean the discussion we had here is important for educating the forum as well. Some people here learned and changed too. Unless I'm misinterpreting your post.
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May 30, 2019 20:53
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General Olloth posted:I mean the discussion we had here is important for educating the forum as well. Some people here learned and changed too. It's fine to educate by posting about how someone is wrong. Reaching out to the person who erred and constructively engaging with them helps that person stop being wrong in the future. It is far more likely to stop the harm. That this kind of reaching out is a skill unto itself, it isn't for everyone, and when people do it and make a change they deserve praise.
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May 30, 2019 21:13
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Mors Rattus posted:In fairness, the status of Facebook as a publisher was actually a topic of some contention when they had that one Congressional hearing a while back, though I believe the lawsuits that were filed after that matter have yet to go anywhere. Oh absolutely. There's some real issues with how we've set up platforms and the platform vs. publish issue that we should be taking a hard look at. Just...not particularly ones about having to listen to nazis.
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May 30, 2019 21:17
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No argument here, yeah. e: I can't see how the argument would help them, though. If Facebook is a publisher and liable for their posts, I'd think it's much more likely to REMOVE those posts.
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May 30, 2019 21:19
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i napped but the lancer devs got back to me in an hour
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May 30, 2019 21:31
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Hey chaps, I am one of the devs of LANCER (and noted goon) and I can fully admit the wording was a complete oversight. We're just two people for a 570ish page book so it is the fault of lack of attentiveness rather than anything intentional. Our editor and layout artist are now actually working on the book so we've doubled our labor force which should help a whole lot.
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May 30, 2019 21:32
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Between Anvil and Victoria there are a lot of really, really high quality miniatures available for folks who want to take a step away from what GW sells. I think it's great. Yeah, I think that if you want to make a squad of Stormtroopers/Tempestus Scions, going to Anvil for a squad of 10 is actually cheaper than buying two squads of 5 GW Scions.
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May 30, 2019 21:38
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Operant posted:Hey chaps, I am one of the devs of LANCER (and noted goon) and I can fully admit the wording was a complete oversight. We're just two people for a 570ish page book so it is the fault of lack of attentiveness rather than anything intentional. Our editor and layout artist are now actually working on the book so we've doubled our labor force which should help a whole lot. You’re doing a really good job. Edit: this isn’t sarcasm.
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May 30, 2019 21:44
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Operant posted:Hey chaps, I am one of the devs of LANCER (and noted goon) and I can fully admit the wording was a complete oversight. We're just two people for a 570ish page book so it is the fault of lack of attentiveness rather than anything intentional. Our editor and layout artist are now actually working on the book so we've doubled our labor force which should help a whole lot. Your book sounds awesome. Is it possible to get a copy with the Kickstarter over?
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May 30, 2019 21:54
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FactsAreUseless posted:Good but also y'all need to chill with attacking the mods. It's a contentious thread. Just accept that it's contentious for everyone, mods included. I would genuinely appreciate it if folks would PM me feedback about this thread.
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May 30, 2019 21:58
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I would genuinely appreciate it if folks would PM me feedback about this thread.
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May 30, 2019 22:21
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atelier morgan posted:i napped but the lancer devs got back to me in an hour Well done! Operant posted:Hey chaps, I am one of the devs of LANCER (and noted goon) and I can fully admit the wording was a complete oversight. We're just two people for a 570ish page book so it is the fault of lack of attentiveness rather than anything intentional. Our editor and layout artist are now actually working on the book so we've doubled our labor force which should help a whole lot. It's a cool project. Congratulations on your success. And fast response to concerns.
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May 30, 2019 22:23
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Operant posted:Hey chaps, I am one of the devs of LANCER (and noted goon) and I can fully admit the wording was a complete oversight. We're just two people for a 570ish page book so it is the fault of lack of attentiveness rather than anything intentional. Our editor and layout artist are now actually working on the book so we've doubled our labor force which should help a whole lot. Apology accepted, thanks for fixing it, best of luck getting your game shipped!
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May 30, 2019 22:44
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atelier morgan posted:i napped but the lancer devs got back to me in an hour Thanks for reaching out to them to educate & correct. Operant posted:Hey chaps, I am one of the devs of LANCER (and noted goon) and I can fully admit the wording was a complete oversight. We're just two people for a 570ish page book so it is the fault of lack of attentiveness rather than anything intentional. Our editor and layout artist are now actually working on the book so we've doubled our labor force which should help a whole lot. Thanks for being cool about it.
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May 30, 2019 22:55
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Liquid Communism posted:For further context, that GenCon event lead to Hambly running a GoFundMe that pulled in over 30k for 'legal fees' to engage in Realize this is many posts ago, but Hambly tried to appeal to Stormfront posters back in late 2017 in an "I'm just joking nudge nudge wink wink" way.
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May 30, 2019 23:11
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Yvonmukluk posted:Yeah, I think that if you want to make a squad of Stormtroopers/Tempestus Scions, going to Anvil for a squad of 10 is actually cheaper than buying two squads of 5 GW Scions. I made my Chaos Necromunda gang that way. Anvil does good stuff, but the shipping to the US is harsh so order all you need in one shot.
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May 30, 2019 23:11
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FactsAreUseless posted:Good but also y'all need to chill with attacking the mods. It's a contentious thread. Just accept that it's contentious for everyone, mods included. It's not attacking the mods, it's specifically calling out Beer when he does specifically bad things. Contrast his behavior with your moderation. You've been a tremendously patient, thoughtful, and precise moderator. This thread immediately became a friendlier community when you started moderating instead of Beer. The thread is covering a lot of important topics and has already generated tangible real-world changes. I hope you continue to have the moderation of this thread.
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May 30, 2019 23:18
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Maneck posted:An effort to make change happen is worth about 1000 pages of forum posts about how change should happen. Nice job. It's extremely cool and good that this thread has actually effectuated change. Shout out to BIG MEATY SHITS for starting it up.
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May 30, 2019 23:21
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FactsAreUseless posted:This. Also I know QCS can be a mess but don't be afraid to use it. It has a lot of advantages in talking out forums issues. If you aren't there to complain about D&D you'll be good. Nah I disagree, until there's some kind of actual rule about qcs being a shitpost free zone it's pretty bad for having discussions about the forums, and PMs are not great because they allow people to completely ignore feedback and there's literally no way to do anything about it I do have a thing I want to say about the stuff earlier, but I have to find the post again and I saw this one first
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May 30, 2019 23:38
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Nah I disagree, until there's some kind of actual rule about qcs being a shitpost free zone it's pretty bad for having discussions about the forums, and PMs are not great because they allow people to completely ignore feedback and there's literally no way to do anything about it
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May 30, 2019 23:42
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FactsAreUseless posted:Good but also y'all need to chill with attacking the mods. It's a contentious thread. Just accept that it's contentious for everyone, mods included. Oh hey I found what I was looking for Very little of the poo poo B4 took was because he's a mod. arivias posts were exactly the tone I would expect from someone dealing with a poster tone policing them. The problem arises when it's someone with actual power telling you to be frustrated properly and to not yell at them or they won't listen, and then they punish you for yelling at them like you would any other poster. I'm really glad you or someone else undid that probe becuase it was literally a mod silencing reasonable criticism that, at worst, delivered the same way it would be to random shitheads like idk bedlamdan This is basically the extent of my thoughts if someone opens a qcs thread I might post this again there but I'm good otherwise BENGHAZI 2 fucked around with this message at 23:47 on May 30, 2019 |
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May 30, 2019 23:45
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Up front disclosure #1: I am a cis het white atheist American male Up front disclosure #2: My 6-year-old daughter is a trans white Jewish-American woman. Language is a tricky thing, especially the English language. An -ed ending can represent both an adjective and a past-tense verb. For instance, Romance languages are often referred to as having "gendered" nouns or verbs or conjugation. In this case it is used as a adjective, i.e. "having or being possessed of gender attributes." Not a verb, like, "someone came along and gendered that noun by giving it a penis." Since "gendered" is a commonly-used adjective, people not in-group have tacked on a prefix and ended up using "transgendered" as an adjective. So while "I am gayed" is a funny way to point out the difference as related to the term "transgendered," it completely misses the linguistic underpinnings that caused the issue in the first place. For a similar and topically relevant example, the term "colored" can be taken simply to mean "of or possessing the attribute of color." And there was a time when people might use the term attaching no other meaning to it than "non-white." But over time it was slowly supplanted by the term "people of color" (which the internet has so unhelpfully reduced to "poc"), to the point that calling someone "colored" now is highly likely to give offense. Why the change? Who the gently caress can say for sure, but part of it is identity politics on the part of the minority or minorities referenced by the term, a self-empowerment over the use of identifying terminology. Language matters, and being able to decide for yourself what words people will use to describe you is one of the most basic of freedoms. It should be supported at every opportunity. This change is a slow process (and if you've ever spent any time in the American South or among old people pretty much anywhere you know this only too well), and it moves in fits and starts. It also has a tendency to be inconsistent even among members of its own community - I know people of color who insist on being called people of color and I know people of color who are like, "No, dude, I'm black." Mixed messaging is sadly all too common in these kinds of social changes, especially in the early stages of their emerging into the wider social consciousness - and I would submit that trans issues are just now starting to penetrate mainstream thought. As such, it is doubly important to pay attention to trans people and help their voices be heard, especially in the current social/political climate where what few gains the trans community has managed to make are under serious threat. And for the trans folks, just know that a lot of people want to be allies, but coming to grips with the nuances in terminology can be pretty daunting. As others have said, the key is in how they react. In this case, a simple tweet got results within like an hour, and that's loving awesome. FAKE EDIT: As a side note, I am also really impressed at the willingness of the participants in this thread to take a step back and apologize for misspeaking, giving the wrong impression, or just reacting badly. When I first saw that there were over 150 new posts in this thread, I was like, "Oh, poo poo, not again." But I was pleasantly surprised at where the discussion got to, and I think a number of contributors to this thread should be commended for keeping such a nuanced topic from descending into an utter poo poo-show. Kudos.
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May 31, 2019 03:12
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Ilor posted:FAKE EDIT: As a side note, I am also really impressed at the willingness of the participants in this thread to take a step back and apologize for misspeaking, giving the wrong impression, or just reacting badly. When I first saw that there were over 150 new posts in this thread, I was like, "Oh, poo poo, not again." But I was pleasantly surprised at where the discussion got to, and I think a number of contributors to this thread should be commended for keeping such a nuanced topic from descending into an utter poo poo-show. Kudos.
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May 31, 2019 03:27
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FactsAreUseless posted:Okay but an imperfect solution is better than every thread becoming a meta-discussion of itself. Also people are going to shitpost in QCS but that doesn't mean the mods and admins can't tell the difference between good posts and bad ones. In fairness - and as someone who mostly misses the slapfights because they happen when I'm asleep - meta-discussion is important when we're engaging with issues of ideologies, as they contribute to our unspoken epistemic assumptions of what and how knowledge works. The balance of content between meta-discussion, generalized discussion of fascism/totalitarianism (and other abusive/abused ideologies - ZS, for instance, isn't a fascist, but he's still a suitable subject for discussion here and part of why he was able to go unchecked as long as he was was by hiding beneath a false-Anarchist anti-fascist persona), and its specific impact on tradgames needs adjusting but a willingness to discuss why the discourse within the thread is shaped the way it is is important to keep it from becoming an echo chamber and to check the assumptions of both posters and mods against each other.
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