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Will Brexit happen by 31 October 2019? This poll is closed. |
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| Yes - We'll fall out no deal in June |
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51 | 6.98% |
| Yes - Some kind of deal will be in place by October |
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26 | 3.56% |
| Yes - Technical Brexit (EU Flag has a gold fringe) |
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29 | 3.97% |
| No - There'll be a general election |
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77 | 10.53% |
| No - There'll be a #PeoplesVote |
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27 | 3.69% |
| No - Queen's dugs will stop it |
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11 | 1.50% |
| Other - Bah Gawd is that Sinn Fein's Music? |
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93 | 12.72% |
| gently caress Knows |
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264 | 36.11% |
| Piss Flaps |
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153 | 20.93% |
| Total: | 731 votes | ||
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mediadave posted:This thread has been pretty constantly saying that Labour will move against Brexit decisively when the time is right. The time was right when May's deal collapsed. The time was definitely right at the start of the EU elections. The time is well past right now. I basically agree but those times were definitely not the time lol Time a) would be pulling the heat off may for the papers to savage labour for flipflopping and betraying brexit. Interrupting your enemy while they make a mistake is a well known political fuckup Time b) was a meaningless comedy election a nebulous amount of time before a GE that was all about a single issue and the results show everyone is basically as divided as before. This is useful info but even if labour had magically won over all the libdems and won the EU elections it would mean... not a whole lot. We don't know when the next GE is and euro results don't translate into GE results. It's a big gamble to take for no reward. Where I'll agree is labour's stance as portrayed is stupid but it's also not being portrayed honestly either. I read a headline in the guardian of "Corbyn rules out remain" and was like ffs but then you read the article and he doesn't say that anywhere he just says the questions on the ref depend on what gets negotiated.
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May 31, 2019 10:42
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Can't believe people are still defending Labour's Brexit position tbh.
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May 31, 2019 10:50
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labour winning the eu election would be labour winning an election, and that's the sort of thing that helps generate momentum. the lib dems doing well in europarl is almost certainly the reason they're doing better in westminster polling - i'd say that labour should have committed to a public vote once the negotiations with May broke down, since that's where they could've changed their position with a degree of legitimacy ('we have tried everything, gently caress it YOLO' type) at this point i'm not actually sure that shifting would help them that much, since the other parties now own the remain position
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May 31, 2019 10:51
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plus now if you end up revoking A50 you'll have a bunch of faragists running around mucking things up in Brussels lol everything is hosed
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May 31, 2019 10:53
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V. Illych L. posted:plus now if you end up revoking A50 you'll have a bunch of faragists running around mucking things up in Brussels lol everything is hosed We would have had that anyway though.
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May 31, 2019 10:56
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V. Illych L. posted:plus now if you end up revoking A50 you'll have a bunch of faragists running around mucking things up in Brussels lol everything is hosed Like we did before you mean?
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May 31, 2019 10:56
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are these faragists in EU parliament more or less insane than the previous ones though
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May 31, 2019 10:57
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ronya posted:social fascism reinvented in our time Low-hanging fruit, but I like the implication under Europeanism that the NSDAP was somehow not a legal opposition party. Could be misreading it, of course.
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May 31, 2019 10:58
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marktheando posted:Can't believe people are still defending Labour's Brexit position tbh. yeah, why hasn't Labour HQ hit up the UKMT thread on the Something Awful forums for their strategy planning on the most divisive issue in a century and how to win a general election in 3 years? boggles the mind.
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May 31, 2019 11:03
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Given that the entire online left seems to stem from LF, give it 5 years.
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May 31, 2019 11:04
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seizure later posted:yeah, why hasn't Labour HQ hit up the UKMT thread on the Something Awful forums for their strategy planning on the most divisive issue in a century and how to win a general election in 3 years? boggles the mind. I don't know if you have noticed but Brexit is actually a really bad idea
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May 31, 2019 11:10
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Jose posted:are these faragists in EU parliament more or less insane than the previous ones though A lot of them are exactly the same people, jumped ship from UKIP to join Farage.
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May 31, 2019 11:16
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marktheando posted:I don't know if you have noticed but Brexit is actually a really bad idea Not sure if you've noticed, but most of Labours target seats for the next GE are leave seats 
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May 31, 2019 11:16
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mehall posted:Not sure if you've noticed, but most
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May 31, 2019 11:18
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mehall posted:Not sure if you've noticed, but most of Labours target seats for the next GE are leave seats I don't think Labour should do obviously terrible things to get votes from racist idiots who want to gently caress over everything. I'm pretty sure the death penalty is very popular with voters, should they commit to bringing that back too?
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May 31, 2019 11:22
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Can we start probing people for brainworms? Having these pissflaps clones posting the same poo poo after every single poll is getting really dull.
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May 31, 2019 11:24
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Nova88 posted:Can we start probing people for brainworms? Having these pissflaps clones posting the same poo poo after every single poll is getting really dull. Oh piss off.
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May 31, 2019 11:27
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marktheando posted:I don't think Labour should do obviously terrible things to get votes from racist idiots who want to gently caress over everything. I'm pretty sure the death penalty is very popular with voters, should they commit to bringing that back too? I wonder what a lot of those seats have in common besides being leave voting that declaring those voters racist is a stupid idea to do
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May 31, 2019 11:30
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I've been thinking a bit about arguing online - not so much this thread as on social media. Person A has lovely position around X. Person B argues with them on Twitter. Person A probably won't change their mind, but if they do their history of lovely positions is still seen as them being a poo poo person by B and pretty much written off regardless. Multiple instances of people having stuff they posted online over ten years ago being dragged up etc etc. If that's the case, what's the point in arguing at all? Is arguing online just performative or, if it's a case of convincing others to change their mind, should this be extended towards forgiveness for previous activity? Not exactly a brain breaking conundrum, I've been thinking about it initially as I work with ex-offenders who show remorse or self-awareness but are still hosed when it comes to getting jobs. But to extend this to ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º° ỖŇĹĮŇẸ ĎĮŜČỖǗŘŜẸ °º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ if Tommy Robinson changed his mind and started campaigning truthfully for redistribution of wealth, open borders, unions etc. would he always be considered a oval office? I'd err towards yes, but feels more reasonable to say no.
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May 31, 2019 11:31
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marktheando posted:I don't think Labour should do obviously terrible things to get votes from racist idiots who want to gently caress over everything. I'm pretty sure the death penalty is very popular with voters, should they commit to bringing that back too? Norway+ would not be "obviously terrible", and may actually exclude us from portions of state aid rules, if negotiated by Labour. There's other examples. A soft brexit would not be a catastrophe. It wouldn't be my preference, but soft brexit would be fine, and a small cost to get a Labour majority. However, if Labour go full remain, you can wave goodbye to any Labour majority, near for certain. The sole exception is the "Boris no deal" outcome, which does seem somewhat likely in fairness, but is also just so loving awful, that an inevitably hamstring Labour government following, and forced into an electoral bind by either the SNP or Lib Dems, could only do so much against. It would be a lot of the right moves, but instead of undoing the damage of the last 9 years, it would be forced to center on undoing a lot of the no deal damage.
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May 31, 2019 11:34
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justcola posted:
It's one of those things where if you create a set answer that you follow systematically, dickholes are going to play that rule to their advantage. Instead it needs to be on a case by case basis employing a little bit of intuition.
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May 31, 2019 11:34
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justcola posted:I've been thinking a bit about arguing online - not so much this thread as on social media. Because there are more people in the world than person A and person B, and "probably won't change their mind" isn't the same as "won't change their mind" Some folks honestly haven't encountered anyone who is willing to disagree with them on certain topics.
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May 31, 2019 11:34
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Jose posted:I wonder what a lot of those seats have in common besides being leave voting that declaring those voters racist is a stupid idea to do Is it that they are full of racists? justcola posted:I've been thinking a bit about arguing online - not so much this thread as on social media. Remember when he joined up with Quilliam and every newspaper hailed it as a great victory for decorum and reasonable debate?
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May 31, 2019 11:37
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Ok so all the Labour voters in the leave constituencies and racists are they can gently caress off, next step winning a general election? Galazy brain right here
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May 31, 2019 11:41
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justcola posted:I've been thinking a bit about arguing online - not so much this thread as on social media. Some of the logic is that you're not arguing against the person, you're arguing to sway the people watching. But in a lot of cases, and a lot more cases day by day, it's the same logic as debating fascists - it just gives them a chance to air their bullshit, and they're not going to engage with you on any kind of legitimate level, so it's better not to engage at all. It's why I stopped using twitter, and it's why I don't argue politics on Facebook. It's a waste of effort, and intensely draining trying to do it right.
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May 31, 2019 11:41
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Nova88 posted:Ok so all the Labour voters in the leave constituencies and racists are they can gently caress off, next step winning a general election? I know Blair loved pandering to racists to get a few votes, but foolishly I thought Corbyn was better than that.
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May 31, 2019 11:44
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marktheando posted:I don't think Labour should do obviously terrible things to get votes from racist idiots who want to gently caress over everything. I'm pretty sure the death penalty is very popular with voters, should they commit to bringing that back too? I'm finding it hard to square away your idea that Brexit shouldn't be done no matter what the cost is to Labour's election chances, but also that Labour should be worried about their election chances because they've tried to take a compromising stance over Brexit
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May 31, 2019 11:44
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pretty sure there are also a hell of a lot of remainers who are mega racist, see: every Tory remainer
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May 31, 2019 11:45
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mehall posted:Norway+ would not be "obviously terrible", and may actually exclude us from portions of state aid rules, if negotiated by Labour.
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May 31, 2019 11:46
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Nova88 posted:Ok so all the Labour voters in the leave constituencies and racists are they can gently caress off, next step winning a general election? No, you take a reasonable and straightforward compromise position - we accept the referendum result, would support a common market brexit, and will have a confirmatory referendum on that. And then you explain why their problems aren't caused by europe.
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May 31, 2019 11:46
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Nova88 posted:Ok so all the Labour voters in the leave constituencies and racists are they can gently caress off, next step winning a general election? FPTP means that Labour traditionally did well in those 'Leave constituencies' by forming an alliance of people who largely voted Remain into a unified bloc while the right-wing vote was split among multiple parties. Leave won there because it gave Conservative, UKIP, and BNP voters something to unite around. Yes, there was some Leaver crossover, but less than you'd think, and the data seems to suggest that Labour Leavers are less wedded to Leave than most.
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May 31, 2019 11:47
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mediadave posted:No, you take a reasonable and straightforward compromise position - we accept the referendum result, would support a common market brexit, and will have a confirmatory referendum on that. And then you explain why their problems aren't caused by europe. Oh look you just explained Labour's current brexit policy...
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May 31, 2019 11:47
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seizure later posted:I'm finding it hard to square away your idea that Brexit shouldn't be done no matter what the cost is to Labour's election chances, but also that Labour should be worried about their election chances because they've tried to take a compromising stance over Brexit well one thing, it's pretty clear that Labour's current brexit stance isn't in fact winning them votes. So argue it on policy or principle, but you can't say now that this is the way to win the election.
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May 31, 2019 11:48
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Nova88 posted:Oh look you just explained Labour's current brexit policy... No, because Labour aren't explicitly saying they support a confirmatory referendum on any deal. EDIT: and they support a reasonable but not clear brexit outcome of customs market and some sort of relationship with single market.
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May 31, 2019 11:49
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seizure later posted:I'm finding it hard to square away your idea that Brexit shouldn't be done no matter what the cost is to Labour's election chances, but also that Labour should be worried about their election chances because they've tried to take a compromising stance over Brexit What's confusing? This muddled stance is costing them votes but doing Brexit is still a terrible idea.
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May 31, 2019 11:49
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mediadave posted:No, because Labour aren't explicitly saying they support a confirmatory referendum on any deal. they quite literally are marktheando posted:What's confusing? This muddled stance is costing them votes but doing Brexit is still a terrible idea. did I miss where a general election was announced and GE media rules were applied?
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May 31, 2019 11:51
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mediadave posted:No, because Labour aren't explicitly saying they support a confirmatory referendum on any deal.  https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/27/jeremy-corbyn-signals-more-support-for-second-referendum-after-voter-exodus Try getting your news from sources other than #fbpe twitter
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May 31, 2019 11:53
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marktheando posted:I know Blair loved pandering to racists to get a few votes, but foolishly I thought Corbyn was better than that. 52% of the country are not 'the racists'. Most of the racists voted Leave, but that doesn't mean everyone that voted Leave is Turbohitler (dumb though leaving the EU actually is), and that sort of hysterical FBPE take is a great way to lose the next election.
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May 31, 2019 11:57
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seizure later posted:did I miss where a general election was announced and GE media rules were applied? No? What's your point?
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May 31, 2019 11:58
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I think part of the problem is Corbyn not being a fan of manufactured stunts. This is supposed to be a big pivot to a confirmatory vote in response to the masses, that just happens to be what their position always was but now gets highlighted as a new stance. But that sort of play isn't what Corbyn does, he prefers straightforward honesty where possible, so it's not really reaching the people who desperately want Labour to take up the official Labour position.
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May 31, 2019 11:58
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