|
JBP posted:The soviet union used similar methods of content moderation in an irl context. If the Chernobyl miniseries is any indication it's about as effective IRL as it is here. Mors Rattus posted:You also, generally, have to go to the polling place assigned to your address. Like, if you go to the wrong high school, you won't be on their list of possible voters and will be turned away. Meanwhile in Australia they have Democracy Sausage maps so that people can decide what polling place to visit based on their food preferences.
|
#
?
May 31, 2019 13:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 08:26 |
|
|
BoneMonkey posted:My first post was a joke, if it's not broke don't fix it, and modding on SA is the best on the internet. Governments by dint of their role in society have to deal with everyone within that society, in one form or another. Because (in theory) we now view simply killing or driving out minority groups as bad, democracy is a good way to structure society that (again, in theory) makes the government have to consider everyone's perspective, and be accountable to the whole populace. There's also economic reasons why some level of democratic thinking is good for market agility that have dovetailed it with capitalism, but for this discussion that's tangential. Democracies can also have plenty of drawbacks depending on how they're set up, and you're not guaranteed great leadership (cf now), but we tend to view those drawbacks and inefficiencies as acceptable compared to the alternatives. Forums or social media in general don't have that same sort of requirement to deal with everyone. No one is going to starve, or be cut off from vital social services, if they can't post on twitter. From a functional perspective, someone might argue that access to the online ecosystem is a moral right of people these days, given its importance to daily life, but even there we're talking about the internet as a whole, not any individual site. Governing online fora like democracies basically gives us all the drawbacks of that sort of system in an environment where the sorts of protections it affords aren't as important.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2019 13:58
|
|
|
FactsAreUseless posted:SA is much, much better than the rest of the internet. The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Games > Traditional Games > Fascists in Trad Gaming Page 55 of 55
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2019 14:19
|
|
|
Booley posted:It's not perfect (how do you mail an absentee ballot to someone who's homeless), but it's significantly better than forcing everyone to find time on a work day to vote. I know in Oregon (it's us, Colorado, Washington and some of California who are entirely mail-in) you can put down pretty much anything as your address and they will try to find you to give you your ballot . Whether it's a food bank you frequent or "third tent from the left under the Burnside Bridge." I don't know what their actual *success* rate is, but the Sec of State's page on ballots specifies this exact issue. Or at least it did when I got curious and looked it up a few years ago, I should probably check again before saying things like that. Ah well, carpe commentatio. Bruceski fucked around with this message at 18:55 on May 31, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 31, 2019 18:53
|
|
|
Desiden posted:Governments by dint of their role in society have to deal with everyone within that society, in one form or another. Because (in theory) we now view simply killing or driving out minority groups as bad, democracy is a good way to structure society that (again, in theory) makes the government have to consider everyone's perspective, and be accountable to the whole populace. There's also economic reasons why some level of democratic thinking is good for market agility that have dovetailed it with capitalism, but for this discussion that's tangential. Democracies can also have plenty of drawbacks depending on how they're set up, and you're not guaranteed great leadership (cf now), but we tend to view those drawbacks and inefficiencies as acceptable compared to the alternatives. Thank you, this was an awesome effort post.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2019 19:00
|
|
|
Early voting isn't perfect either, but I do it every election and it is great. Still, there is not too much in the way of advertising it so lots of people so only people who are really motivated to vote do so. I also have a friend who's votes get thrown out almost every election because he lives with his dad who has the same first name.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2019 20:45
|
|
|
BoneMonkey posted:My first post was a joke, if it's not broke don't fix it, and modding on SA is the best on the internet. The biggest thing other organizations can take away from SA is that you aren't obligated to give a platform to assholes, or be nice to them, or protect their feelings or fragility. You can just get rid of them. You don't have to debate them or adhere to some form of intellectual rigidity. You don't have to provide justice or fairness. You just have to do what you think is right, ethical, and good for your organization, your employees, your website, your users, whatever. But you have to be open enough to criticism, and willing enough to have the back-and-forth dialogue regarding organizational norms and guidelines, to make sure that you're arriving at the right choices.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2019 22:18
|
|
|
Plutonis posted:The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Games > Traditional Games > Fascists in Trad Gaming Page 55 of 55
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2019 22:19
|
|
|
Was this the thread where we were talking about Chris Avellone and his misogyny and weird cozyness with rpg codex? Because there apparently was a recent interview where he states that his games, one of which involves space wizard Ayn Rand yelling at you for helping a homeless person, aren't political at all.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2019 23:20
|
|
|
Der Waffle Mous posted:Was this the thread where we were talking about Chris Avellone and his misogyny and weird cozyness with rpg codex? Is that Kotor 2? Cause that sounds like Kotor 2. And i never really thought about it as a kid, but yeah im glad he at least set her up as the “bad guy”. Unless i misremembered that as well.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2019 23:26
|
|
|
FactsAreUseless posted:The biggest thing other organizations can take away from SA is that you aren't obligated to give a platform to assholes, or be nice to them, or protect their feelings or fragility. You can just get rid of them. You don't have to debate them or adhere to some form of intellectual rigidity. You don't have to provide justice or fairness. You just have to do what you think is right, ethical, and good for your organization, your employees, your website, your users, whatever. I honestly think that part of the success in establishing a self-reinforcing culture within SA was Lowtax's arbitrary approach to banning - back when I started reading the forums in the early 2000s people would be banned for breaking formal rules, informal norms, or just because Lowtax thought it was funny. It meant that the barrier for being canceled was very low and so lots of people got run out early for otherwise minor issues. It meant that most folks felt that a ban wasn't a huge deal, and usually people would re-join and learn, sometimes they'd go Dear Richard. Getting back to this question of how to support IRL spaces at developing resilient cultures, I think you need a similar willingness to call-out or otherwise censure people for mostly low-level issues without it being seen as a huge deal to either the person doing the calling-out or the callee.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2019 23:35
|
|
|
FactsAreUseless posted:But you have to be open enough to criticism, and willing enough to have the back-and-forth dialogue regarding organizational norms and guidelines, to make sure that you're arriving at the right choices. Thanks for the post. How did SA keep this bit? All you would need is a narcissist to get a red star and it would gently caress it all up, yet that hasn't happened here?
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 00:44
|
|
|
Notahippie posted:Getting back to this question of how to support IRL spaces at developing resilient cultures, I think you need a similar willingness to call-out or otherwise censure people for mostly low-level issues without it being seen as a huge deal to either the person doing the calling-out or the callee. Yeah, when "hey no, we don't do that here" is normal, a callout isn't a big deal, and nobody has to either freak out about being banned for life or break out the written guidelines for the formal process for shaming of the fuckhead (vol II, minor offenses against good taste).
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 00:57
|
|
|
Der Waffle Mous posted:Was this the thread where we were talking about Chris Avellone and his misogyny and weird cozyness with rpg codex? I dunno if it was this thread in particular but I've been banging on that drum for years now. Also he didn't just say his games were totally apolitical, he's gone full gamergate and declared that games shouldn't be political at all, and that it's bad for developers to "take a side" with any political argument whatsoever. Our boy finally went public on his shittiness, always knew he had it in him.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 01:12
|
|
|
Der Waffle Mous posted:Was this the thread where we were talking about Chris Avellone and his misogyny and weird cozyness with rpg codex? I dunno much about chris avellone but you didn't actually play that game, did you?
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 01:19
|
|
|
BoneMonkey posted:Thanks for the post. How did SA keep this bit? All you would need is a narcissist to get a red star and it would gently caress it all up, yet that hasn't happened here? You missed DocEvil then. Much like nazis, bad admins run away when the community as a whole laughs at them.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 02:16
|
|
|
Notahippie posted:Getting back to this question of how to support IRL spaces at developing resilient cultures, I think you need a similar willingness to call-out or otherwise censure people for mostly low-level issues without it being seen as a huge deal to either the person doing the calling-out or the callee. This is, in my experience, it in a nutshell. You have to, have to, actively curate online communities to get the kind of community you want. If you don't, if you adopt a wholly laissez faire attitude towards the whole thing, you will inevitably hit a point where lovely people are both driving off the folks you'd prefer to stay while also attracting more lovely people to replace them. This means ignoring the usual protestations of "but my free speech" and "but I'm just shitposting" to tell people "hey no, that's not cool, please don't do that here" and then if they refuse to accept that you have to kick them out.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 02:58
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:This is, in my experience, it in a nutshell. You have to, have to, actively curate online communities to get the kind of community you want. If you don't, if you adopt a wholly laissez faire attitude towards the whole thing, you will inevitably hit a point where lovely people are both driving off the folks you'd prefer to stay while also attracting more lovely people to replace them. This means ignoring the usual protestations of "but my free speech" and "but I'm just shitposting" to tell people "hey no, that's not cool, please don't do that here" and then if they refuse to accept that you have to kick them out. It's the exact same thing IRL, but with fewer things like "shitposting" to veil poo poo behavior disguised as ___________. Well ok it's not exactly the same, people are way less inclined to enormous dramatic meltdowns about free speech and being oppressed when asked to stop saying <the thing> at (eg) a local footy club than they are in an online forum.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 03:09
|
|
|
People are also way less likely to ask people to stop IRL due to that same politeness. In this way I feel like this is a good side effect of the internet pulling everyones mask off.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 05:02
|
|
|
The  stake everyone has to post here is one of my favorite things. Just that low cost of entry filters out so much internet riff raff (hi Reddit) and helps people feel invested. At the end of the day being able to pay your money and be unbanned gives you a chance to learn you lesson and have some consequences. Your rap sheet linking to your e-crimes and a specific post tied to the ban/probe also means you can see if people have a history of some bad behavior or if something was an isolated incident. Being able to save a man's spine with avatar purchases is just the perfect icing on the cake for self policing. Just look at Guy Goodbody, everyone got tired of his poo poo in this subforum, was confronted at every opportunity, and so eventually he just switched to a different account stopped posting here. He is still able to spew pictures of underage Anime girls in subforums where that is more the norm, and we have one less problem.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 12:29
|
|
|
The Avellone stuff wasn't in this thread to my knowledge.masam posted:Is that Kotor 2? Cause that sounds like Kotor 2. And i never really thought about it as a kid, but yeah im glad he at least set her up as the “bad guy”. Unless i misremembered that as well. I don't think space Ayn Rand is an accurate characterisation of her but she's definitely framed as the main villain.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 13:26
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:I dunno if it was this thread in particular but I've been banging on that drum for years now. Maybe next time post the quote, not your take on it? quote:Not everyone agrees with this sentiment, however. Freelance games writer and narrative designer Chris Avellone believes stories can be apolitical, and that his are. “They may become political as societal norms change, but I believe it’s possible to do apolitical games,” he says. “I also don’t condone developers who want to do political games or make a statement – I think a game is served better by asking a question, provide a range of perspectives on the question, but then leaving the answer to the player. I try to frame any politics in the parameters of the world, the lore, and the franchise.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 20:20
|
|
|
TheDiceMustRoll posted:Maybe next time post the quote, not your take on it? Congrats on posting several paragraphs of boring boilerplate gamergate nonesense instead of just one paragraph? Like what here is meant to exonerate Avellone and his stans, exactly. Maybe just spanmming big ol' paragraphs has worked in the past, but it doesn't quite work out here, especially when it's brought to you by the guy who can't stop defending every other lovely dude he can find.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 20:32
|
|
|
TheDiceMustRoll posted:Maybe next time post the quote, not your take on it? my non political take is that this dude sounds like an enormous dumbass
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 20:54
|
|
|
Cat Face Joe posted:my non political take is that this dude sounds like an enormous dumbass I mean, that was my take. But I thought that around the time he went to another forum and started airing dirty laundry. Especially since he literally gave the advice some years back "Do not ever talk poo poo about people in the industry, it will come back to bite you in the rear end." Following that up with "MY FORMER EMPLOYERS ARE EMBEZZELING ABUSIVE SHITHEADS" was not a big brain move.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 21:03
|
|
|
ProfessorCirno posted:Congrats on posting several paragraphs of boring boilerplate gamergate nonesense instead of just one paragraph? Like what here is meant to exonerate Avellone and his stans, exactly. Maybe just spanmming big ol' paragraphs has worked in the past, but it doesn't quite work out here, especially when it's brought to you by the guy who can't stop defending every other lovely dude he can find. I think it was a good idea to post the full quote.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 21:17
|
|
|
I'm an introvert. Since reading this thread I've been absolutely mouthing off to people saying stupid poo poo lately and it's actually pretty empowering. Just having the language to express myself and a "If they reject me I don't want to be here anyway" mindset is a big deal. Good poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 21:21
|
|
|
Cat Face Joe posted:my non political take is that this dude sounds like an enormous dumbass This is not so. Just about everything will have politics in it, beyond perhaps extremely basic stories. I think it is fair to say, "When I wrote XYZ, my intention was not to discuss Issue ABC," as a creator, and it is also fair to enjoy and draw value from works that do not agree with your politics-- and this does not mean that you do not actually hold those politics, either. This issue I suppose is that in American discourse (which is unfortunately fairly hegemonic) "political" used casually means "is about the issues of the day or about the left/right dichotomy broadly defined by the Republican party and its agents, and to a lesser extent by the Democratic party and those affiliated with it." But this is parochial. Kreia makes many political statements. (For instance, she is against organized religion, which is not very controversial in the game's audience, and is also against a particular aspect of the supernatural, which is a pretty heavy statement.) I think one big challenge everyone in these fields is facing now is that if you skillfully write a character with a reprehensible opinion or attitude, some fraction of the audience will love it, and celebrate it, and take it as validation. This is probably not a hole you can dig out of with additional layers of satire and cynicism.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 22:53
|
|
|
Nessus posted:I think one big challenge everyone in these fields is facing now is that if you skillfully write a character with a reprehensible opinion or attitude, some fraction of the audience will love it, and celebrate it, and take it as validation. I thought we were going to avoid discussing Warhammer
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 23:01
|
|
|
TheDiceMustRoll posted:I thought we were going to avoid discussing Warhammer
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 23:06
|
|
|
Nessus posted:I said "skillfully" I was literally about to to post “Skillfully?”.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 23:07
|
|
|
Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I'm cisgender heterosexual white American male. Hey Beer? I know neither of us like each other very much; so that’s why I’m trying to be constructively polite in this. Maybe telling trans people how you, a “cisgender heterosexual white American male“, shouldn’t have to listen to trans people when they tell you about their problems is kinda lovely? And it’s especially lovely because, wether or not it’s true, every time you do things like this it looks like you are using your moderator status to avoid being punished?
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 23:17
|
|
|
jakodee posted:Hey Beer? I know neither of us like each other very much; so that’s why I’m trying to be constructively polite in this. Maybe telling trans people how you, a “cisgender heterosexual white American male“, shouldn’t have to listen to trans people when they tell you about their problems is kinda lovely? And it’s especially lovely because, wether or not it’s true, every time you do things like this it looks like you are using your moderator status to avoid being punished? PM me if you want to discuss this.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 23:23
|
|
|
Beer4TheBeerGod posted:PM me if you want to discuss this. What if a poster doesn't have PMs? Seriously thinking we should start a QCS thread to discuss how unfitting a mod you are for this thread if you're not willing to discuss it here.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 23:24
|
|
|
Beer4TheBeerGod posted:PM me if you want to discuss this. No. I’m saying something you said in the thread we are both posters in was lovely and offensive, in the thread we are both posters in. Look I’m not trying to stir up EVEN MORE poo poo in this thread full of well-stirred poo poo, I’m asking for some sort of apology or acknowledgement of something I thought was way out of line and insensitive. The point isn’t to gather a lynch mob, just to avoid skipping over something I thought that really should have been called out at the time. Edit: Again I really don’t want to take this thread too far away from discussing Fascists in Trad Gaming, but this kind of thing needs to be confronted in the thread itself.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 23:28
|
|
|
Arivia posted:What if a poster doesn't have PMs? Seriously thinking we should start a QCS thread to discuss how unfitting a mod you are for this thread if you're not willing to discuss it here. You're more than welcome to start a QCS thread. It's why every other time this topic has come up I have told the people bringing it up to start a QCS thread, and why FAU has told people to start a QCS thread. And the reason I'm not willing to discuss my moderation here is because the topic of this thread is not why I'm a good or bad mod, it's to discuss fascism in gaming. It's why the rules that were created when this thread was reopened specifically state that complaining about moderation will get you probated. I have no problem receiving feedback as a mod. I have asked for, and received, several comments about it. I have discussed the best approach to handling this thread with FAU. This is not an easy thread to moderate. I'm fully aware that my moderation of this thread has been problematic. FAU and I are working on getting some extra help.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 23:35
|
|
|
“Bitching” is also unusually problematic, borderline cruel word choice in that specific context, imho, and the manner in which it is problematic is completely relevant to this thread (it is both the same tool wielded by fascist demagogues and the sort of word used constantly and thoughtlessly in traditional gaming communities). EDIT: like, setting Beer aside (respectfully) for a moment, I’d like to read about how we can take steps to eradicate thoughtlessly cruel, aggressive, and/or fascist words used by (wholly hypothetical) people who legitimately don’t want to be cruel, aggressive, or fascist, but (again hypothetically) don’t understand the context and take offense when challenged. Sulecrist fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Jun 1, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 23:36
|
|
|
Look, I acknowledge that my probation of Arrivia was insensitive. I probated her because she was complaining about moderation. Since then I've had multiple conversations with FAU about a good approach and will be more thoughtful about it. I'm serious; this thread is not for discussion of my moderation. Unless FAU says otherwise I will start probating people for bringing it up again. FAU and myself have made it clear that QCS is the appropriate venue for this topic.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 23:40
|
|
|
Arivia posted:What if a poster doesn't have PMs? Seriously thinking we should start a QCS thread to discuss how unfitting a mod you are for this thread if you're not willing to discuss it here. He already made a thread (not QCS) for taking complaints about his moderation and closed it without comment 2 pages in when the thread got flooded with complaints. Beer4TheBeerGod posted:You're more than welcome to start a QCS thread. It's why every other time this topic has come up I have told the people bringing it up to start a QCS thread, and why FAU has told people to start a QCS thread. And the reason I'm not willing to discuss my moderation here is because the topic of this thread is not why I'm a good or bad mod, it's to discuss fascism in gaming. It's why the rules that were created when this thread was reopened specifically state that complaining about moderation will get you probated. I have no problem receiving feedback as a mod. I have asked for, and received, several comments about it. I have discussed the best approach to handling this thread with FAU. This is not an easy thread to moderate. None of this has much to do with my issue. I want to believe that you’re really making efforts to improve your ability to moderate an often troublesome community, but that has nothing to do with my complaint about what you posted outside of your capacity as a moderator. I’m not complaining about your moderation, I’m complaining about your posting. I’m discussing matters completely relevant to the Fascists in Trad Gaming, specifically that you posted something really messed up and I’m actually kind of shocked that the thread just brushed it off.
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 23:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 08:26 |
|
|
Nessus posted:I said "skillfully" Easily confused with 'skullfully'. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 1, 2019 23:45
|
|
