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delightfully twisted and evil
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Feb 6, 2019 14:09
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Asscrumb's characterization is good.
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Feb 6, 2019 14:10
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Asscrumb's characterization is good. What’s with the weird obsession? Are you alright dude?
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Feb 6, 2019 16:24
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His writing has wit to it.
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Feb 6, 2019 20:05
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are you even having fun any more
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Feb 7, 2019 05:54
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this is kind of weird but is there a detailed summary of the first three books anywhere? i read 1 and 2 and half of 3 but I can't remember significant parts of book 3 now and i want to finish it lol
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Apr 24, 2019 23:17
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You can read the wiki but try not to spoil yourself. I really like the latter half of the third book. https://firstlaw.fandom.com/wiki/Last_Argument_of_Kings
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Apr 26, 2019 04:25
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A good reason to listen to the audio book versions, the narrator Steven Pacey is the best audio book narrator ever!
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Apr 26, 2019 04:47
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i just finished first law, it took me a while because i stopped half way through last argument for no drat reason at all. I think the books drag a little bit because the politics aren't as intricate as ASOIAF but drat if it doesn't wrap up in the most satisfying way. Also the sense of humor never really falters. Really strong pulpy stuff the epilogue of book 3 is amazing because Black Dow is a huge piece of poo poo but when he calls Logen an evil bastard even by his own standards he's absolutely right, it's just that the reveal takes ages to get there it's metal as hell cargo cult fucked around with this message at 22:27 on May 29, 2019 |
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May 29, 2019 22:21
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cargo cult posted:i just finished first law, it took me a while because i stopped half way through last argument for no drat reason at all. I think the books drag a little bit because the politics aren't as intricate as ASOIAF but drat if it doesn't wrap up in the most satisfying way. Also the sense of humor never really falters. Really strong pulpy stuff I quite like how he set's up people to see the world through their own eyes and doesn't do a lot of omniscient narrator bullshit "this is the real story". In my experience, nobody thinks of themselves as evil or as the villain.
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May 30, 2019 00:36
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is the background with juvens, kanedias, mamun, bayaz, tolomei supposed to be kind of vague, beyond the fact that Bayaz is an rear end in a top hat even by the end of the trilogy? I feel like that kind of tracks with the emphasis on characters and action over elaborate fantasy worldbuilding I really love that all of the characters are each despicable in their own way but still likable and people you'd want to see get some kind of development, if not closure, even though they absolutely don't deserve it. Logen, most of all cargo cult fucked around with this message at 03:20 on May 30, 2019 |
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May 30, 2019 03:17
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cargo cult posted:i just finished first law, it took me a while because i stopped half way through last argument for no drat reason at all. I think the books drag a little bit because the politics aren't as intricate as ASOIAF but drat if it doesn't wrap up in the most satisfying way. Also the sense of humor never really falters. Really strong pulpy stuff IMO that’s what makes the politics fantastic. You don’t realize Bayaz is a psycho mastermind at all because you don’t see him buying and bullying votes like Glokta, you just see old men looking nervous around him.
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May 30, 2019 03:18
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cargo cult posted:is the background with juvens, kanedias, mamun, bayaz, tolomei supposed to be kind of vague, beyond the fact that Bayaz is an rear end in a top hat even by the end of the trilogy? I feel like that kind of tracks with the emphasis on characters and action over elaborate fantasy worldbuilding I think that yes, it's supposed to be vague. I seem to remember a blog post or a tweet by Abercrombie a long time ago where he said something along the lines of the background and the rivalries are supposed to be the setting of the story, not the plot, and that they will never be fully fleshed out or resolved I guess I do feel like there is some character development, but it is generally too little too late to have any sort of happy ending for the characters. Glokta, Jezal and Logen all seem to have grown by the end, but are in situations where they have no control over changing their lives. Glokta and Jezal are both under the heel of Bayaz. Logen's only option is to run, which is all he's done all series, but with the name of the last chapter, there seems to be some hope in it for him.
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May 30, 2019 04:31
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Xenix posted:I think that yes, it's supposed to be vague. I seem to remember a blog post or a tweet by Abercrombie a long time ago where he said something along the lines of the background and the rivalries are supposed to be the setting of the story, not the plot, and that they will never be fully fleshed out or resolved It's super cynical and dark and that last bit where Bayaz' dresses him down is funny as poo poo, and helps maintain the series' tonal quality to the last possible second.
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May 30, 2019 05:48
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It's not only Bayaz's influence. As one of the POV characters puts it, to become someone else, you need to go in new places and do new things with new people. Logen actually manages to become a good man for a while until he has a great idea to return to the North. When he does that, he becomes his old self out of fear. Glokta tries to show mercy sometimes, but nobody expects that from a torturer. Even the people he saves usually don't know what to do with it (like Eider) or are themselves locked in a situation they have no control of (Shickel). In the case of Jezal, his entire character development is pretty much undone as soon as he gets back to Adua. It's most visible in how he treats Ardee West - he wanted to marry her on the plains, but now it's unthinkable to him. His newfound strength he shows as a king comes from him being struck into a new role he has no idea how to perform.
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May 30, 2019 07:54
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I look at this universe as the Wire meets low fantasy. Everyone is a slave to the systems they inhabit. It's different in that the there really is an immortal Illuminati playing their own power games. I really hope that the next trilogy ends with Bayez getting got.
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May 31, 2019 04:13
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:I look at this universe as the Wire meets low fantasy. Everyone is a slave to the systems they inhabit. It's different in that the there really is an immortal Illuminati playing their own power games. That's way too conventional for @lordgrimdark. I think it's more likely you have Bayez get unceremoniously wrecked early in the new trilogy and have the rest of the books dealing with the power vacuum and maybe having the other magi or Bayez's cannibal henchman causing mayhem.
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Jun 1, 2019 02:57
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At first I was going to say it wouldn't be on theme for bayaz to get his. But now I really want to see everyone fighting for the power vacuum that he leaves. That'd be awesome, I actually love yoru sulfur as a character even though he's a bit light on actual characterization.
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Jun 1, 2019 04:38
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Think I'd like to see Bayaz and Khalul go at it for a finale to either of them. I'd also like to know more about the lore in the past that he has intentionally left vague, the Tellers of Secrets and Glustrod and all that poo poo would probably make 3 more books.
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Jun 1, 2019 05:00
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Bayaz and Khalul gear up for a final battle, then simultaneously slip on banana peels and die while Joe Abercrombie personally addresses the reader and calls us idiots for expecting that kind of conclusion
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Jun 1, 2019 05:18
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It's already been made pretty clear that magic is disappearing from the world and the new age is the industrial revolution. I half expect that Bayaz and Khalul will fade away like forgotten relics. By The Heroes, isn't Bayaz pretty much fully invested in cannons? Like, that's his big plan? The First Law trilogy always felt to me like magic's last gasp, and the world is far better off for it. As much as it feels like a confrontation between Bayaz and Khalul has been building, it would also make sense to me (and at the same time be weirdly satisfying) if all of that ended in a whimper. Like, the war between the two of them has ultimately meant nothing and the world has just passed them by. I dunno, I'm probably wrong. I just wish it was September already. I want the new book in my hands.
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Jun 1, 2019 23:12
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There was sort of another message that he didn't need it though - I mean, obviously he needed it when fighting the other guy with magic and his magic army, but very little of his power in adua came from anything magical at all. Sure, some men aren't satisfied until some furniture is broken, but that seemed to only be because he took a long break since his last intervention. Sulfur's magical assistance certainly helped him reassert control, but his big plays were mostly foresight and logistics-based. It's been awhile so if I'm forgetting a hundred things and am totally wrong, I'm sorry.
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Jun 1, 2019 23:22
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It seems like even if magic is fading the Magi can still bang, but doing so leaves them (Bayez at least) vulnerable. Better to invest in proxies, tech, and soft power to do your fighting for you. The interim books have done a decent job of setting up independent actors that could at least attempt to shake things up. Return of King Cassomir plese Chef Boyardeez Nuts fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Jun 2, 2019 |
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Jun 2, 2019 01:07
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It’s been years since I read it but I didn’t think the backstory of the Magi was ambiguous. It’s subtle but it’s all there and mostly confirmed through the dialogue of the fourth magi, Yulwei. Bayaz and Juvens had a falling out so he goes to study with the maker. Bayaz was caught sleeping with the maker’s daughter, Toloemi. Bayaz confronted the maker and tossed him off the roof. When Toloemi wasn’t cool with that he tossed her next. This is subtly confirmed by comparing Yulwei’s version of the story to Bayaz’s. Bayaz lies and says the maker threw Toloemi off, forcing Bayaz to fight and kill him. Yulwei who was present at the bottom of the maker’s tower, contradicts Bayaz’s account by stating he saw the maker fall first followed by Toloemi (meaning it had to be Bayaz who threw her). Also there’s the whole Toloemi making a deal with demons and coming back as a revenant just to get revenge on Bayaz. Similar stuff for Juvens, who Bayaz then confronts and kills after the above events in a blatant power grab. Despite Yulwei helping Bayaz he clearly thinks Bayaz killed Juvens and ask him directly several times. Near the end of the series Bayaz does answer him semi-truthfully: “What does it matter who killed who so long ago?” Ultimately Bayaz’s insane power grab causes Khalul, second of the magi, to turn against Bayaz and resort to eating the dead to get strong enough to fight him. So really Khalul is sort of a tragic figure here and way more of a good guy than Bayaz.
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Jun 2, 2019 09:26
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:It seems like even if magic is fading the Magi can still bang, but doing so leaves them (Bayez at least) vulnerable. Better to invest in proxies, tech, and soft power to do your fighting for you. Magic might be a bit more powerful now, at least for Bayaz - there's a throw-away line from late Last Argument of Kings where one of the characters thinks Bayaz looks a little rejuvenated from handling the Seed. Modern tech is probably needed for him given that he doesn't have an army of cannibal superhumans (whose power hasn't been fading) - I wonder why he never pursued that path. I remember a conversation where he says that yeah Yoru is an eater but Bayaz himself never went through with it, and he doesn't have anything in the way of an army of apprentices like Khalul.
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Jun 2, 2019 09:33
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Megasabin posted:It’s been years since I read it but I didn’t think the backstory of the Magi was ambiguous. It’s subtle but it’s all there and mostly confirmed through the dialogue of the fourth magi, Yulwei. As I understand, it went a bit differently. Juvens had been killed before Kenedias (most probably by Bayaz) and this is the spark that causes the Magi assault the House of the Maker. Tolomei is the one who lets them in. After a confrontation on the rooftop, the Maker falls (burning, burning) and his daughter follows him, most likely because she knew too much. Neurosis posted:Magic might be a bit more powerful now, at least for Bayaz - there's a throw-away line from late Last Argument of Kings where one of the characters thinks Bayaz looks a little rejuvenated from handling the Seed. Modern tech is probably needed for him given that he doesn't have an army of cannibal superhumans (whose power hasn't been fading) - I wonder why he never pursued that path. I remember a conversation where he says that yeah Yoru is an eater but Bayaz himself never went through with it, and he doesn't have anything in the way of an army of apprentices like Khalul. As we know from Best Served Cold , one of his Eaters rebelled against him and remains a thorn in his side at least until the end of the book. Probably he felt he wouldn't be able to control that many.
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Jun 2, 2019 10:28
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I recall what happened among the Magi being somewhat ambiguous: Bayaz had a spat with Juvens and then went to study under Kanedias. Kanedias refused to reveal his secrets so Bayaz seduced Tolomei and got her to tell him. Kenedias found out and chased Bayaz out of his keep. In Bayaz's telling, he chased him straight to Juven's and the two brothers had a massive confrontation that left Juvens dead. This part is only attested to by Bayaz but he uses this to get the other Magi on board to march on Kenedias. They can't break the seige but then Bayaz persuades Tolomei to let them in. In his version, he and Tolomei confront Kanedias who throws her off the roof in anger and then Bayaz gets him. So there are a few different interpretations for this: Bayaz's version is that he was impetuous, young and arrogant and hosed up by betraying both masters but then took revenge on Kanedias who basically became a total psychopath. Khalul in this telling was jealous and mistrustful of Bayaz and rejected his master Juvens and his choices because he wasn't the leader. He goes off and embraces every dirty trick he can find in order to be able to beat Bayaz out of a twisted and dark sibling rivalry. The other extreme of this is Bayaz was a total bastard from the get go who only wanted knowledge and power. When Juvens refused to give him full access he betrayed him and took up with Kanedias. When he refused to give Bayaz his secrets and power, Bayaz seduced his daughter in order to get them. When this was discovered he fled like a coward and ran to Juvens. Juvens and Kanedias had a bust up and Bayaz finishes Juvens off because he sees a way to get revenge on Kanedias and possibly to get access to his weapons. Bayaz then leads the Magi against Kanedias, uses Tolomei again and kills her and her father to clear the way for his own domination and cover his tracks. Khalul in this tale would be the one of the Magi who saw through Bayaz and refused to help him in his ruthless quest for power, taking up whatever means he had access to stop him. Based on Yulwei's memories and the distrust the other Magi have and what an utter bastard Bayaz is we can be pretty sure the first version isn't true but equally we don't the second version is either. Ultimately it doesn't really matter because however this started, Bayaz and Khalul have dominated the majority of the continent causing untold misery and suffering in their own personal quests: Bayaz's for power and Khalul's for revenge. They may or may not have had noble intentions but by this point they're both forces of immense suffering. The future of the world seems to be leaning more and more towards modern trade and technology, V&B certainly has a lock on that and controlling states through money. I'm curious to what degree we might see religion get woven back into the stories considering that industrial revolution type read feels very Fukuyama 'End of History' type vision of the future. Joe hasn't really explored religion as a force for social change and control beyond Khalul's empire being super fundamentalist. I think assuming that people can be controlled through finance and technocratic government shenanigans would be a fun thing to blow up in Bayaz's face.
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Jun 2, 2019 13:56
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I thought it was heavily implied that Bayeaz was eating the dead during his chat with Calder in The Heroes.
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Jun 2, 2019 13:58
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I think the dialogue implied that he's more a Snacker than an Eater
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Jun 2, 2019 14:28
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I misremembered some of the details of the story, but I think my general point still stands. Yulwei’s recall of events differs from Bayaz in a way that shows Bayaz was the one who tossed Toloemi himself. Yulwei also clearly doesn’t trust Bayaz and constantly asks him if he killed Juvens, implying that’s what he and likely the other magi assume happened. Couple this with Bayaz’s line about who cares who killed who in the past along with Bayaz’s machivallean power hungry nature and its barely reading between the lines to figure out what happened.
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Jun 2, 2019 22:55
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:I thought it was heavily implied that Bayeaz was eating the dead during his chat with Calder in The Heroes. My take was that Bayaz is not an Eater and that he just set the scene like that to gently caress with Calder. One of the things about Eaters is that they are compelled to keep eating the flesh of the dead, and you never see Bayaz doing this on that whole long trip to the edge of the world to get the Seed. Also, I just don't see Bayaz as being willing to make a permanent change like that. Employ others who do, sure, but commit to it himself? Nah, that's what underlings are for.
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Jun 3, 2019 01:57
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Gantolandon posted:As we know from Best Served Cold , one of his Eaters rebelled against him and remains a thorn in his side at least until the end of the book. Probably he felt he wouldn't be able to control that many. Good point. Khizan posted:My take was that Bayaz is not an Eater and that he just set the scene like that to gently caress with Calder. One of the things about Eaters is that they are compelled to keep eating the flesh of the dead, and you never see Bayaz doing this on that whole long trip to the edge of the world to get the Seed. Also, I just don't see Bayaz as being willing to make a permanent change like that. Employ others who do, sure, but commit to it himself? Nah, that's what underlings are for. Yeah pretty much how I read it, too. From memory becoming an Eater fucks with how you think in some way - it's not simply needing to eat flesh and getting super-powers. Obviously it's not totally crippling, but Bayaz might have not thought it worth the risk.
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Jun 3, 2019 07:21
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That makes sense. I just figured he started up after the seed didn't work out and he'd been booted from the House of the Maker. I'm looking forward to the Great Power politics that has been set up for the new trilogy. The Ghurkish have had time to recover while the Union has been constantly tied up in the North, Styria is ostensibly united under Murcatto and backed by Shenkt and the Old Empire is getting its poo poo together under Goltus and Zacharus. The North is technically under Bayez, but there's no way Calder is smart enough to not gently caress it up. I get the impression that the Old Empire is more of a China analogue than Rome. If that's true, they can be formidable if they aren't killing each other.
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Jun 4, 2019 02:48
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I think the Old empire is explicitly Eastern Rome/Byzantium right down to frequent usurpation of the throne, nominal control over much of its territory but still potentially a huge force. If ihe's sticking with this idea I'd expect it to not take much of a direct role in conflicts, be generally more hostile to the Ghurkish (autocorrects to Turkish  ) but ultimately only an ally of convenience. I also keep getting bits of Bakker in my head when trying to recall the events of the earlier books.
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Jun 4, 2019 09:59
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UncleMonkey posted:It's already been made pretty clear that magic is disappearing from the world and the new age is the industrial revolution. I half expect that Bayaz and Khalul will fade away like forgotten relics. By The Heroes, isn't Bayaz pretty much fully invested in cannons? Like, that's his big plan? The First Law trilogy always felt to me like magic's last gasp, and the world is far better off for it. As much as it feels like a confrontation between Bayaz and Khalul has been building, it would also make sense to me (and at the same time be weirdly satisfying) if all of that ended in a whimper. Like, the war between the two of them has ultimately meant nothing and the world has just passed them by. They used to control through magic in the old times but as the world shifted and they were only left with immortality, they've pivoted their respective strategies to religious and economic control. Khalul has his religious empire and Bayaz has a modern-ish banking sector. Abercrombie clearly looked at what the two most successful forms of control in our modern world were and just picked those as the tools of his version of the illuminati. I'm not sure why Bayaz doesn't create an army of eaters the way Khalul does so he still has some magic at his disposal. He might see not breaking the second law as a symbol of his superiority. The fact that his favorite disciple, Yoru, became an eater anyway is just something he has to deal with instead of endorse. For people looking for something similar to Abercrombie to read before September, I just finished "The Scar" by Sergey and Marina Dyachenko. It was on a very similar wavelength to Abercrombie's writing, to the point that I would've sworn that he had read it before writing The Blade Itself, except that it wasn't translated into English until 2012 (it was originally published in Russian in 1997.) The character's arc is very similar to Jezal, but the authorial voice sounds a bit less cynical which helps it hit the lows and highs of Egert's arc more successfully than what Abercrombie does with Jezal. It's also got a sparing use of magic and lore, never letting them interfere with the importance of character moments. It's a stand-alone part of a tetralogy and it makes me really sad we probably won't get the other 3 books translated anytime soon.
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Jun 11, 2019 23:02
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Ccs posted:They used to control through magic in the old times but as the world shifted and they were only left with immortality, they've pivoted their respective strategies to religious and economic control. Khalul has his religious empire and Bayaz has a modern-ish banking sector. Abercrombie clearly looked at what the two most successful forms of control in our modern world were and just picked those as the tools of his version of the illuminati. There's also that Bayaz remained in relatively friendly relations with most of the Magi (to the point that Zacharus sent him his apprentice), while Khalul burnt all bridges. I'm pretty sure not having an army of Eaters running around helped the former.
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Jun 12, 2019 08:02
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There are plenty of unaccounted-for magi, Khalul could still have friends. I don't think the magi other than Yulwei had really taken a side, Cawneil and Zacharus didn't exactly seem like his friends. Sending Quai to Bayaz does seem strange now that you mention it though.
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Jun 12, 2019 16:56
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Quai was such an interesting character and I'm sad he got merked off-screen. How does one come to apprentice with the Illuminati?
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Jun 12, 2019 23:53
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:There are plenty of unaccounted-for magi, Khalul could still have friends. I don't think the magi other than Yulwei had really taken a side, Cawneil and Zacharus didn't exactly seem like his friends. Sending Quai to Bayaz does seem strange now that you mention it though. Well, Cawneil was his ex he left for Tolomei. Some saltiness was normal. Still, she helped him to get to the place where the Seed was supposedly hidden. Zacharus really stopped supporting Bayaz because he considered using the Seed as bad (if not worse) as creating Eaters. He was up for an alliance of the Magi marching against Khalul as they did against the Maker. Sending Quai happened before Bayaz made his plans known. Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:Quai was such an interesting character and I'm sad he got merked off-screen. How does one come to apprentice with the Illuminati? I wondered that myself, because Quai seemed pretty mediocre. He must have shown something that impressed at least Zacharus.
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Jun 13, 2019 14:45
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I've just finished my (I don't know) sixth or seventh re-read and my take on it is this: As First of the Magi, upon Juvens' death, leadership nominally fell to Bayaz, at least so far as taking revenge on Kanedias for killing their matter. I don't recall it ever being explicitly stated or even strongly inferred that Bayaz was the one who iced Juvens but it's highly plausible. Being highly learned types and possibly very old already at this point, some of them threw shade on Bayaz' version of events and in the end each of them decided for themselves how much faith to keep in Bayaz. Khalul obviously went for none, while it seems like Yulwei simply chose to trust Bayaz' word despite his doubts, as he is his brother, and First among their order. Zacharus, Cawneil, and wherever else have their own opinions no doubt and still cooperate with Bayaz to some degree but there's no implication of outright hostility from any of them except Khalul alone. Full agreement with Megasabin that Khalul is basically the one dude who sees through Bayaz' bullshit and the more sympathetic in his motivations. Or maybe it's rooted in sibling rivalry and they're both huge pieces of poo poo, who knows. I think it's strongly suggested that Bayaz not only condones his apprentices becoming Eaters, he encourages it. In his meeting with Calder it's ambiguous but I don't think we're meant to believe Bayaz is an Eater. I would think his motivations for not wanting to cultivate an army of Eaters to rival Khalul's probably stems from his need to control everything combined with Shenkt's (Casamir?) betrayal. He needs strong servants, but only if he's absolutely sure if their loyalty and/or his ability to control them.
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Jun 16, 2019 06:25
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