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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:That's totally fine? We're on a derail of a derail of a derail at this stage, if I want to talk about some of the finer points of what happened in one film (for which there is obviously some level of disagreement about, given I have 85 people responding each time I post), you can feel free to safely ignore me if I'm not contributing to the broader discussion. My point being that the punishment for their crimes in AoU is part of the larger discussion. At one point you said Wanda should possibly appear before the Hague, although you didn't really say what Tony's punishment should be. We don't have to speculate tho, we know what happened because it's covered in Civil War. If you simply want to limit your part of the discussion to specifically who did worse stuff in Age of Ultron that's...fine? Although it seems odd to divorce it from the greater context of how the derails started and what they were even about, and of course people aren't necessarily going to stick to that guideline themselves.
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Jun 3, 2019 04:11
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It's not a loving derail, it's the entire thesis of the mcu.
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Jun 3, 2019 04:18
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Guy A. Person posted:My point being that the punishment for their crimes in AoU is part of the larger discussion. At one point you said Wanda should possibly appear before the Hague, although you didn't really say what Tony's punishment should be. We don't have to speculate tho, we know what happened because it's covered in Civil War. I mean if I was on the jury for either trial in real life I would likely vote to put them both behind bars, if that clarifies the matter. And I'm not trying to limit the discussion to a particular guideline, at all! I was simply attempting to clarify the scope of my previous posts for all the "but whaaaat about this other film/my sick burn about how you obviously fetishize billionaires and/or facists" posters.
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Jun 3, 2019 04:27
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Calm down dude, the noble purpose I'm referring to here is "defend the planet from an invasion by a literal highly advanced alien species", which can be justified by watching the previous film. The previous film where they stopped the invasion of that alien species with no robot. They even found time to nuke them after the battle was already won. Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:And I'm not trying to limit the discussion to a particular guideline, at all! I was simply attempting to clarify the scope of my previous posts for all the "but whaaaat about this other film/my sick burn about how you obviously fetishize billionaires and/or facists" posters. You are describing a billionaires attempt to build a super weapon to control the world for its own protection as a 'noble purpose' Even if it hadn't gone horribly wrong and lead to the death of
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Jun 3, 2019 05:23
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Bogus Adventure posted:I got burned out with the MCU so much that I haven't watched an Avengers movie since the first one, but I'll grant that it's impressive that they were able to maintain enough threads over a decade and bring it to a conclusion. What threads, though? Character and plot arcs over the course of these movies are utterly ignored or, if they’re not, often retconned or otherwise lampshaded because it derails the plans the new filmmakers had. Remember when SHIELD was made of Nazis the whole time? The MCU is most often praised for its continuity when it’s very often the cinematic universe that’s consistently the worst at it.
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Jun 3, 2019 06:39
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I don't think it's a coincidence that it's also the only successful one. For the most part the films get to focus on their own stories rather than being weighed down with continuity baggage.
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Jun 3, 2019 06:44
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I watched Avengers Endgame for the first time this weekend. It was a good movie and the 3 hours flew by, yet I wasn't completely satisfied. Everyone got their touching blasts from the past and that was great.  I was mostly disappointed by the lack of fighting scenes from the original avengers. Only Thor and Captain America got some good fights in. (excellent for the latter) Tony just fell down and stayed out of all fights except for a brief moment when he teams up with Iron Pepper. (who was awesome) I just love Iron Mans fighting style in these movies and I will miss him. Maybe Pepper will show up some more or they'll write Riri in. Hulk was also weirdly handled. Hulk no want to play! Suddenly professor Hulk! Also no fights for him! After all the smashing in previous movies and being the brawn of the team, he suddenly has to be the brain of the team, which means that the final fight we see him participate in was getting his poo poo kicked in by Thanos. Feels very much like Worf effect. Which in the future is probably going to bite them in the rear end with Captain Marvel tanking a headbutt with a smile. (Even if it was a fun little moment) It could mean the next guy has to be significantly more powerful to be a threat (which means the others can't do anything) or they're going to have to write her away so the other can have a time to shine. Or maybe the writers will fix it in a novel way, Marvel has surprised me often enough in the past in that regard. I never expected to like Captain America for example and yet here I am. I developed a big soft spot for Hawkeye over the movies and I loved him (and Nat!) even more in this movie. I look forward to his outing on Disney+. I really hope Thor is going to keep hanging out with the Guardians of the Galaxy. Comedy gold right there. Has Chris Hemsworth said anything about reprising his Thor role? Ragnarok was brilliant and his parts in Endgame and Infinity war were amazing. Despite all that, this probably marks the end for me of actively following the Marvel universe (except maybe Thor/Guardians of the Galaxy), I'm just a little tired of the Marvel formula, but it was a good finish. 
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Jun 3, 2019 10:02
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Covok posted:While I do like the Iron Man movie and the Avengers, it is a social evil to produce any work of art that promotes the rich as a positive force in society when they are inherently negative and destructive. Making people worship Elon Musk, for example, allowed a stemlord to abuse his workers by making them literally have to camp out in his factories to meet financial goals that are unattainable while getting positive coverage from a society that believes the rich can do no wrong because God made them rich. What a flawed, deluded perverse and wretched nation this is.
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Jun 3, 2019 11:00
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I think that take is entirely at odds with the take that Stark always does bad things.
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Jun 3, 2019 12:38
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Snowman_McK posted:The previous film where they stopped the invasion of that alien species with no robot. They even found time to nuke them after the battle was already won. An autonomous anti-Thanos defense system a-la the Iron Dome (Israel's atrocities toward Palestine notwithstanding) would absolutely be seen as a noble pursuit by the people who live in a world that has discovered that god-like extra-terrestrial species exist and have introduced themselves by attacking new york. Remember, my post was in response to "how would a court of law judge the relative guilt between Wanda and Tony".
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Jun 3, 2019 12:53
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Im not taking a stance on how close her fuckery comes to mind control. Regardless, putting the staff in the hands of a PTSD victim after priming him to make the wrong choice by triggering a PTSD-nightmare while knowing that doing so will have destructive consequences (because you can read his mind) is, again, pretty deliberately heinous. I was surprised they had him bring up what he saw while Wanda was loving with his head again in Endgame actually. It's been haunting him a while apparently.
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Jun 3, 2019 15:00
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RBA Starblade posted:I was surprised they had him bring up what he saw while Wanda was loving with his head again in Endgame actually. It's been haunting him a while apparently. Yep her shenanigans messed up a lot of people, even leading to Bruce/Hulk peacing out off-world because he no longer trusted himself around other people, undoing all the progress he and Nat had made. Mazzagatti2Hotty fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Jun 3, 2019 |
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Jun 3, 2019 15:25
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I don't think it's a coincidence that it's also the only successful one. For the most part the films get to focus on their own stories rather than being weighed down with continuity baggage. That would be true if the stories had no continuity baggage at all, but they absolutely do. It’s just all absurdly badly done. This is the franchise that revealed the entire organization the heroes were working for was run by super Nazis who were more Nazi than Nazis, and after they blow up a helicarrier it gets two passing mentions ever again. They never even ask if what they did for the secret super Nazis before they found out was misguided into being acts of evil. This isn’t even touching the individual character development, which falls apart even on the most casual inspection. Like, there are two MCU movies in the top five financially successful films of all time that are literally just about continuity baggage.
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Jun 3, 2019 16:42
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:An autonomous anti-Thanos defense system a-la the Iron Dome (Israel's atrocities toward Palestine notwithstanding) would absolutely be seen as a noble pursuit by the people who live in a world that has discovered that god-like extra-terrestrial species exist and have introduced themselves by attacking new york. None of his friends agree with him, his first run nearly destroys the world, and his perfected version is completely useless when it comes to stopping Thanos. I don’t think that meets the criteria for noble failure. There are lots of historical monsters who killed a bunch of people out of a misguided notion that it was necessary for the greater good and that only they had the capacity to do it.
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Jun 3, 2019 16:45
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well they way I see it is he made ultron which is bad but he stopped ultron which is good so it's a wash
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Jun 3, 2019 16:58
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YOLOsubmarine posted:None of his friends agree with him, his first run nearly destroys the world, and his perfected version is completely useless when it comes to stopping Thanos. I don’t think that meets the criteria for noble failure. There are lots of historical monsters who killed a bunch of people out of a misguided notion that it was necessary for the greater good and that only they had the capacity to do it. Who made Vision in the version of the movie you watched?
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Jun 3, 2019 17:25
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Dietrich posted:Who made Vision in the version of the movie you watched? Thor
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Jun 3, 2019 17:33
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Hell they never even got to his "first run". They didn't even get out of "is it possible to make this A.I." phase before Ultron gained self-awareness and learned Stark's systems so fast he overrode the safeguards before Jarvis could even raise an alarm. I'm sure Steve would have raised concerns about the plan, and would have been right to do so! Amd Tony was wrong not to seek their counsel beforehand. But sans disaster, if Tony was able to take a functioning non-genocidal Ultron A.I. to the governments of the world and say "with this prototype we can make space defenses to repel the next Chitauri invasion" they would absolutely want to at least explore the notion. But as with most things Tony does it turned out to be an absolute fuckup, this time of epic proportions.
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Jun 3, 2019 17:57
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It's never even really made clear what an AI defense system would even do. Like Tony has the JARVIS/FRIDAY psuedo-AI that already controlled all of his suits, to the point of controlling several of them for the big fight in IM3 and then controlling the robot police force we see in AoU before Ultron turns them into his army. Wouldn't they be sufficient for building and controlling a big robot defense army? Then there's the fact that what Tony wanted to do with Ultron actually does work out with Vision and what help was he? He got punked 10 minutes into IW then died forever at the end. Hell, he was a liability in IW because if they had just kept the mind stone in a safe they wouldn't have any qualms about destroying it as soon as they knew what Thanos was after. I guess you could argue if you built a god AI that was hyper intelligent it could spend a few years inventing new weapons and planning contingencies/strategies for Thanos's eventual attack, but I feel like at that point you totally would have more than just luddite Cap saying "uhhh that sounds incredibly dangerous". Realistically tho, Tony just mass producing Iron Man suits and weaponry and giving them to the other Avengers and a bunch of soldiers and stuff would have probably been another decent plan. For all the "Tony is super worried about Thanos" he never really spent all that much time do anything about it. He ping pongs between "we need a suit of armor around the earth" to "we need oversight from the government (plus me)" then back again in his last 3 movies.
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Jun 3, 2019 18:58
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Pirate Jet posted:That would be true if the stories had no continuity baggage at all, but they absolutely do. It’s just all absurdly badly done. This is the franchise that revealed the entire organization the heroes were working for was run by super Nazis who were more Nazi than Nazis, and after they blow up a helicarrier it gets two passing mentions ever again. They never even ask if what they did for the secret super Nazis before they found out was misguided into being acts of evil. IW/EG are something of an exception, but the entire point of those movies is to be a capstone so all the continuity is relevant there.
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Jun 3, 2019 19:12
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 I find this true, Mothra and KOTM monster fights were legit
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Jun 3, 2019 20:17
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Yep her shenanigans messed up a lot of people, even leading to Bruce/Hulk peacing out off-world because he no longer trusted himself around other people, undoing all the progress he and Nat had made. Before that, he hid himself, a living superweapon, in two of the largest urban zones on earth, but only populated by brown people. It seems more like the vision made him stop being a racist. Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Hell they never even got to his "first run". They didn't even get out of "is it possible to make this A.I." phase before Ultron gained self-awareness and learned Stark's systems so fast he overrode the safeguards before Jarvis could even raise an alarm. "You implied it was a failure, but it was actually a catastrophic, still born failure"
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Jun 4, 2019 00:21
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Snowman_McK posted:Before that, he hid himself, a living superweapon, in two of the largest urban zones on earth, but only populated by brown people. It seems more like the vision made him stop being a racist. Obviously, the reason banner went to brazil and india was to only endanger dark people, and not because they're areas of the world where the western intelligence agencies that were looking for him wouldn't really have a ton of eyes. quote:"You implied it was a failure, but it was actually a catastrophic, still born failure" The point was neither the murderous AI nor Vision were what Tony had in mind when it came to his idea for Ultron. We never get to see what he intended.
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Jun 4, 2019 00:42
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Darth TNT posted:I really hope Thor is going to keep hanging out with the Guardians of the Galaxy. Comedy gold right there. Hemsworth is out of contract, but he has said that he'd love to do Asgardians of the Galaxy.
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Jun 4, 2019 00:44
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Jedit posted:Hemsworth is out of contract, but he has said that he'd love to do Asgardians of the Galaxy. tbh Hemsworth is one of the bright things to come out of the mcu project. He’s so good. We all knew Evans and RDJ were good but ragnarok really brought out the talent.
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Jun 4, 2019 00:50
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Dietrich posted:Obviously, the reason banner went to brazil and india was to only endanger dark people, and not because they're areas of the world where the western intelligence agencies that were looking for him wouldn't really have a ton of eyes. Why cities? You know, that are full of people, cameras and things that could very well set him off? And why two of the largest cities in the world? Also, he gets found both times...so, it didn't work
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Jun 4, 2019 01:08
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Snowman_McK posted:Before that, he hid himself, a living superweapon, in two of the largest urban zones on earth, but only populated by brown people. It seems more like the vision made him stop being a racist. Well hell, if that's the case Wanda should have just asked him nicely to go attack the Africans! quote:"You implied it was a failure, but it was actually a catastrophic, still born failure" Yup, you'll find no disagreement here.
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Jun 4, 2019 01:13
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:Well hell, if that's the case Wanda should have just asked him nicely to go attack the Africans! ...what?
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Jun 4, 2019 01:14
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Snowman_McK posted:Why cities? You know, that are full of people, cameras and things that could very well set him off? He was in the cities for access to scientific resources. Norton Banner was trying to cure himself. He was also trying to stay in touch with who he was and was treating people with no medical aid in slums. Being a hermit brooding away in the middle of nowhere seems like a poo poo idea for a man that requires purpose and can get very angry.
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Jun 4, 2019 01:15
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JBP posted:He was in the cities for access to scientific resources. Norton Banner was trying to cure himself. He was also trying to stay in touch with who he was and was treating people with no medical aid in slums. Being a hermit brooding away in the middle of nowhere seems like a poo poo idea for a man that requires purpose and can get very angry. Hanging out in the middle of the largest cities on earth, filled with tens of millions of people, when you're a living weapon of mass destruction who can barely control what you do, seems a lot shittier. the medical aid thing doesn't really work, when he presents a much bigger risk of them needing a lot more of it.
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Jun 4, 2019 01:17
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Snowman_McK posted:...what? If Wanda wanted thim to go attack an African city, it seems counter-productive to use her mind powers to, as you suggest, cure his virulent racism.
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Jun 4, 2019 01:18
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Mazzagatti2Hotty posted:If Wanda wanted thim to go attack an African city, it seems counter-productive to use her mind powers to, as you suggest, cure his virulent racism. Oh, he's not a virulent racist, he just prioritises his own access to science and need to have something to do over the safety of millions of poor brown people. In that sense, he's exactly in tune with the rest of the avengers, who prioritise redirecting violence over preventing it.
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Jun 4, 2019 01:20
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Snowman_McK posted:Hanging out in the middle of the largest cities on earth, filled with tens of millions of people, when you're a living weapon of mass destruction who can barely control what you do, seems a lot shittier. I feel like having something to do with his Banner half is important to remaining human. I'd watch a story where he goes insane due to isolation and Hulk is his only friend. They decide to smash infinitely obviously.
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Jun 4, 2019 01:21
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JBP posted:I feel like having something to do with his Banner half is important to remaining human. I'd watch a story where he goes insane due to isolation and Hulk is his only friend. They decide to smash infinitely obviously. Then go to a small village. Or even a mid sized town. Not two of the largest cities on earth.
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Jun 4, 2019 01:22
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Either way, Wanda seems to have a unique take on exposure therapy.
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Jun 4, 2019 01:29
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It's strange to me that 'a living superweapon "concealing himself" in two giant megacities full of poor brown people is kind of hosed up optics' is somehow a hot take.
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Jun 4, 2019 01:32
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Snowman_McK posted:It's strange to me that 'a living superweapon "concealing himself" in two giant megacities full of poor brown people is kind of hosed up optics' is somehow a hot take. Because, as with many of your terrible takes, you're suggesting both the worst possible reading as well as ignoring any counterfactual content. Banner/Hulk felt so bad about what happened after Wanda messed with him that he literally left the planet. If he was racist, doubt that would be the case. And there is no point during hulk's episode in Johannesburg where the avengers do anything less to stop him and prevent civilian injuries than they would in New York or any other city.
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Jun 4, 2019 01:37
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Dietrich posted:you're suggesting both the worst possible reading I don't know that there's a good reading for 'living superweapon hides in giant cities full of brown people rather than...literally anywhere else' I don't think this is the intended reading. I just think, like huge chunks of this lovely franchise, they didn't think about the implications and 'exporting our problems away from us' has been the standard modus operandi of the developed world for a couple of centuries.
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Jun 4, 2019 01:40
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Snowman_McK posted:I don't know that there's a good reading for 'living superweapon hides in giant cities full of brown people rather than...literally anywhere else' It couldn’t possibly be trying to get away from the western world and simultaneously do good in poor communities while still having access to what he wants. No sir. Must be racism.
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Jun 4, 2019 01:45
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Snowman_McK posted:It's strange to me that 'a living superweapon "concealing himself" in two giant megacities full of poor brown people is kind of hosed up optics' is somehow a hot take. well for one it's a take that has to ignore that banner never hulks out in those megacities, only when he keeps getting dragged back to this avengers bs. if we believe banner when he says that he's 'always angry' it stands to reason that helping those 'poor brown people' also helps him channel that anger to more productive goals than just smashing everything around him basically you're ascribing racism to the avenger most committed to helping poor minorities
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Jun 4, 2019 01:46
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