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No Wave posted:If she wasnt a perfect and moralizing supergenius there wouldnt be any complaints. As is it just seems unfair that somebody who isnt real gets to tell real people they're not good enough. Ah yes back to the "she's a Mary Sue" argument because a woman is good at a single thing.
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Jun 4, 2019 16:00
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Nobody's that good at anything.
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Jun 4, 2019 16:24
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Her character wasn't any more "I figured this all out myself!!!" than Legasov's.
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Jun 4, 2019 16:33
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i like nice words
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Legasov gets to make more decisions and realize more things in that show than he ever did IRL (his biggest rival at Kurchatov, for example, was on site and came up with a few of the ideas that have been attributed to Legasov, and some of them are also given to Emily Watson's character), but nobody's being mad at Legasov being a turbo brain this time around, only the fictional woman character that is actually meant to represent a lot of people.
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Jun 4, 2019 16:34
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No Wave posted:Nobody's that good at anything. I dunno. You seem to excel at making awful posts
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Jun 4, 2019 16:34
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Also it's not like she's doing anything that's outside her expertise.
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Jun 4, 2019 16:36
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This is set in 1986, it's not even like it's from the 1930s before they invented women or something.
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Jun 4, 2019 16:39
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Anne Whateley posted:Her character wasn't any more "I figured this all out myself!!!" than Legasov's. Yeah but she's a woman so it's unrealistic that she is capable of Thing (because women) you moron, you absolute buffoon  There is a 100% chance that none of these people would have complained if it was just some competent dude
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Jun 4, 2019 16:43
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She was somehow intimate enough with the architecture to know about the water tank thing. This isnt just smart, it's bizarre, these arent conclusions an individual comes to. The other one is that she just happens to show up and make a big deal over someone being exposed to radiation who has a miscarriage the next episode. It's not hard to see how she's an amalgam of characters, but it's hard to see her as anything but an amalgam of characters. Legasov doesnt do anything extremely brilliant, he's someone who has enough experience to recognize graphite on the roof and comes up with boron+sand, that's about it. He's smart and his giving up his life to radiation is admirable but there i didnt see any stretches (even knowing that things happened differently irl).
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Jun 4, 2019 16:44
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No Wave posted:She was somehow intimate enough with the architecture to know about the water tank thing. This isnt just smart, it's bizarre, these arent conclusions an individual comes to. He can spot dark graphite on a blackened roof filled with debris from the height of an helicopter moving around a sky darkened by smoke, and that's totally believable but one of the person who works for the russian civilian nuclear department finding out information after looking at building plans is just out of this world. *edit: It's so much more unbelievable than 20 guys finding out out the same information.
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Jun 4, 2019 16:47
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Oh I know! There was no shot of her in a kitchen making a sandwich. Now that's the realism we should strive for.
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Jun 4, 2019 16:48
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Dalael posted:*edit: It's so much more unbelievable than 20 guys finding out out the same information.
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Jun 4, 2019 16:48
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No Wave posted:There were man and woman scientists, pretty sexist of you to assume it was 20 guys. no no no... Woman can only be good at making sandwiches, otherwise it's just too unrealistic
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Jun 4, 2019 16:49
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How is "notices a thing on a schematic" totally super unrealistic for a nuclear scientist? Or "is upset about safety protocols in a hospital" How is any of that in ANY WAY totally unrealistic or absurd for the character Even in the scene where she is discussing the schematics with Legaslov he was aware of most of what she was going to say except the very last detail, so he also had the apparent superpower of "can read schematics"
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Jun 4, 2019 16:49
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Imagine a reactor scientist shown to know things about reactors... and is a woman!
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Jun 4, 2019 16:54
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Would've been more realistic for Dyatlov to rip off the fake mustache at the end to reveal he is in fact - an incompetent woman that doomed everyone. I didn't want to go back to accent chat, but given we're somehow in an even worse place, for some reason every time Gorbachev was about to speak my brain was just sure it was going to be some ridiculous comedy voice and I can't think why. e: I think I know why... I think I so wanted him to be NoHo Hank in a new guise.
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Jun 4, 2019 16:57
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Bip Roberts posted:... and is a woman! 
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Jun 4, 2019 16:57
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I guess I could see this looking like a problem on paper. "We have this single person doing an enormous amount of work that took 50 people in real life". Doesn't come off that way in the show though. She interviewed people in the hospital, she studied documents, she collated them into a report. That's not impossible for a single person to do over an entire year. e: I'm SO glad that they clearly stated that Ulana Khomyuk was fictional at the end, you know in 2 days there'd be a loving conspiracy theory about how the brave scientist who discovered everything was disappeared by the evil commies for knowing too much and all records about her were erased (with some conclusions that she immigrated to america and tweeted a bunch about how she's grateful she doesn't have to live in belarus anymore) Loops fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Jun 4, 2019 |
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Jun 4, 2019 17:22
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EL BROMANCE posted:Would've been more realistic for Dyatlov to rip off the fake mustache at the end to reveal he is in fact - an incompetent woman that doomed everyone. Best post of the like last two pages.
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Jun 4, 2019 17:23
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I'm no nuclear scientist, but isn't figuring stuff out in theory and on schematics kinda what they usually do? Since you can't look at it directly and your sensors usually are all over the place as soon something bad happens, they are always going in for the theories, always pretty much guessing based on what they know in order to fix things. The same thing happen for real in Fukushima when they simply assumed that the fuel rods were still in water and that pouring more over it will cool them down, which partly was wrong and partly worked out, until they found new problems and new ideas with it. Sure, she does come kind of out of nowhere but people getting crazy ideas based on theories and schematics is quite a huge deal in nuclear physics, the fact that the soviets didn't ask around internationally for more brains to think about what could happen, in contrast to how this stuff is often done, is probably more a political aspect and somewhat justifies a single expert, that happens to be female, coming in to fulfill that job.
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Jun 4, 2019 17:40
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all those "where are they now" slides at the end and not a single mention of the good boys and girls that had to die in the Holomeowdor
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Jun 4, 2019 17:43
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Collapsing Farts posted:Yeah but she's a woman so it's unrealistic that she is capable of Thing (because women) you moron, you absolute buffoon
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Jun 4, 2019 17:44
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The post-credits scene is a looming shot of the elephant's foot foot cut to black screen: CHERNOBYL WILL RETURN.
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Jun 4, 2019 17:46
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Everyone arguing about how they could  fix that there was a female character on the show when the creative decisions surrounding it have already been explained are really outing themselves...Like, this was explained on the podcast and in the pre-credits montage and you mongoloids are still whining about the mere fact that there was a woman scientist on this show... MononcQc posted:Legasov gets to make more decisions and realize more things in that show than he ever did IRL (his biggest rival at Kurchatov, for example, was on site and came up with a few of the ideas that have been attributed to Legasov, and some of them are also given to Emily Watson's character), but nobody's being mad at Legasov being a turbo brain this time around, only the fictional woman character that is actually meant to represent a lot of people.  Pretty much. CharlestonJew posted:all those "where are they now" slides at the end and not a single mention of the good boys and girls that had to die in the Holomeowdor    drunkill posted:HBO have already greenlit (or will) another show from him. Different, probably not disaster porn but another docudrama it seems. My body is ready. 
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Jun 4, 2019 18:00
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I finally finished this and man does this show get you right in the feels. I think the biggest takeaway to all this is that the relentless pursuit of profit often has severe consequences that aren't always readily apparent. The kind of institutional neglect and lies that took place in Chernobyl are not at all unique to the USSR. This could happen in the USA or anywhere else in the world. In fact I work in the chemical industry. We talk a big game about safety but let me tell you the marketing/sales aspect of the job trumps all operational or safety concerns. I have had to push back against certain things for safety reasons only to get deadpan silence. I end up sounding like the nerd or the party pooper because I'm resisting a corner cutting culture of expediency and just-in-time inventory management where we need everything yesterday. It sucks, there's no rewards for being principled and doing the right thing. Even if the company tells you to be safe at the macro level you're just an rear end in a top hat or a lazy person trying to avoid work if you ever use safety as an excuse for slowing something down the sales team needs. A lot of the time we cut corners around chemicals that are unreactive or harmless so there's virtually zero risk of something bad happening. At least 4 times a year the WRONG chemical product is shipped to a customer because someone didn't do their due diligence or product numbers aren't accurate. People don't like you if you are "that guy". The only people who will agree with you are the lab and the regulatory dept. Neither are especially popular in a company based on a relationship driven business culture selling commodities with razor thin margins. The pressures of the business lead to corner cutting and while everyone tries their best to resist unsafe activities procedures don't always get followed. Thus far that just means extra delays, mild inconveniences or financial penalties for sending the wrong product to the customer. That said, I can't help but wonder if one day the perfect storm lines up in such a way where a seemingly routine situation turns into a release of chlorine gas that forces the evacuation of several city blocks. THAT is the consequence of not following the procedure... It may seem harmless to cut corners for that one order of a harmless glycol but it creates precedents, it normalizes non conformity and it creates a new normal where bad things happen. A lot of organizations have safety procedures and they follow them MOST of the time. But there's always that 10% where business culture and management pressure leads to mistakes. They recognize it, they talk about how you shouldn't do it, but in the heat of the moment you need to be able to stare down a red faced sales person and say NO to them because it doesn't follow the procedure. Keep making exceptions and well... that's how you get Bhopal or Chernobyl. Realistically speaking the chances of some sort of disaster like this ever happening again are miniscule. That's why people still cut corners... Its a matter of principle rather than immediate danger in the short run and there's just no room for principle in business or in the USSR apparently. The motives are different but the results are the same. Whether it's national pride or greater profit, we humans when organized into institutions SUCK at following rules and procedures. EDIT: We can see the same situation with climate change. We have a looming disaster that is aggressively being denied, or being manipulated by political people. The need for profit and conformity trumps the existential threat of this planet boiling everyone alive. We won't act on climate change until it's too late. The threat is still far too abstract and random for anyone to actually launch a massive campaign to fight it the way the USSR mobilized all their resources to fight chernobyl. How do you fight a gargantuan monolithic and opaque political system that feeds you platitudes when there's such a severe existential threat on the horizon? We deny deny deny deny, mislead, lie, and then destroy the reputations and careers of people who try to do the right thing. Kraftwerk fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Jun 4, 2019 |
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Jun 4, 2019 18:01
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Kraftwerk posted:I finally finished this and man does this show get you right in the feels. My favorite example of "This can happen in the US" is that time a bunch of nuclear technicians almost caused a criticality by putting a bunch of plutonium rods next to one another in order to take a picture. This happened in 2011. https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/06/near-disaster-federal-nuclear-weapons-laboratory-takes-hidden-toll-america-s-arsenal
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Jun 4, 2019 18:05
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Toxic Fart Syndrome posted:Everyone arguing about how they could Yeah it is extremely pathetic
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Jun 4, 2019 18:32
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Xpost from the GBS thread:CrazyLoon posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCLVOxIkpNY "Vichnaya Pamyat," or "memory eternal," is the Orthodox prayer for the dead: quote:Vichnaya Pamyat is an exclamation, an encomium like the polychronion, used at the end of an Eastern Orthodox funeral or memorial service. The same exclamation is used by those Eastern Catholic Churches which follow the Byzantine Rite. It is the liturgical counterpart to the Western Rite prayer "Eternal Rest". The "eternal memory" mentioned in the prayer refers to remembrance by God, rather than by the living, and is another way of praying that the soul has entered heaven and enjoys eternal life.
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Jun 4, 2019 18:46
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It's also not "Vichnaya" I don't think but it does combine the same word in both Ukranian and Russian (I think the Russian version is Vechnaya) which I don't know whether it's an error on the show's part or a symbol for the different cultures the disaster affected.
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Jun 4, 2019 18:53
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Dalael posted:My favorite example of "This can happen in the US" is that time a bunch of nuclear technicians almost caused a criticality by putting a bunch of plutonium rods next to one another in order to take a picture. This happened in 2011. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokaimura_nuclear_accident This is also a good one. I think Ouchi was mentioned earlier in the thread, but the criticality accident that killed him and another worker is an really good example of disregarding proper handling procedures.
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Jun 4, 2019 18:55
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Stare-Out posted:It's also not "Vichnaya" I don't think but it does combine the same word in both Ukranian and Russian (I think the Russian version is Vechnaya) which I don't know whether it's an error on the show's part or a symbol for the different cultures the disaster affected. Sorry, that's the Ukrainian translation...Orthodox prayers are always done in the native tongue! 
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Jun 4, 2019 18:57
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hee-hee https://twitter.com/ClickHole/status/1135969538632278017
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Jun 4, 2019 19:02
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Stare-Out posted:It's also not "Vichnaya" I don't think but it does combine the same word in both Ukranian and Russian (I think the Russian version is Vechnaya) which I don't know whether it's an error on the show's part or a symbol for the different cultures the disaster affected.
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Jun 4, 2019 19:02
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Anne Whateley posted:No, I think there are legit complaints, the Mary Sue whine just isn't one of them. I really wanted to see a bunch of scientists and experts coming together to work on everything, because I wanted that to be a big theme, but I didn't care if they were doing it in the background and she was their mouthpiece. But claiming that she's unrealistically perfect is nuts when we also have Legasov. The other problem is that they’re both nuclear physicists, not mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, doctors, epidemiologists or other experts that would need to work together to come up with a complete account of events and to plan a response. It’s fine that she’s a nuclear physicist that comes in to help out representing all of those that did. Just throw in an engineer and a doctor too, send the doctor to Moscow and give the engineer 60 seconds to explain the need for all the stuff to get ready for the first containment building. I think as is the interdisciplinary nature of this kind of thing is sold short.
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Jun 4, 2019 19:07
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Mars4523 posted:"Vichnaya Pamyat" is Ukranian. Oh, alright. I must've misremembered.
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Jun 4, 2019 19:16
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hobbesmaster posted:The other problem is that they’re both nuclear physicists, not mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, doctors, epidemiologists or other experts that would need to work together to come up with a complete account of events and to plan a response. I think the real crime is that 700 000 bio-robots were there for months and we don't have 1 shot of the poor cafeteria workers who fed them all. What, are we suposed to think Legasov fed them all by himself? Totally unrealistic. Why couldn't they give 60 seconds to a fat line cook asking for more potatoes? Totally ruined my immersion guys, this show is total bullshit
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Jun 4, 2019 19:42
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Why are there always concern trolls popping up for this show? Someone on twitter recently started a poo poo storm where she complained there weren’t enough people of colour in the show. To be fair to her she argued that because they didn’t use Russian actors, accents or even the language then it shouldn’t matter if the plant workers were white either. The suggestion is so ridiculous that I have begun to suspect that twitter account is owned by a Russian troll farm as a part of their ongoing effort to stir up right wing sentiment in western countries. Especially since the only news org to report on that tweet was Russia Today. https://www.rt.com/news/460958-chernobyl-hbo-racial-diversity-actors/
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Jun 4, 2019 20:01
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Dalael posted:I think the real crime is that 700 000 bio-robots were there for months and we don't have 1 shot of the poor cafeteria workers who fed them all. What, are we suposed to think Legasov fed them all by himself? Totally unrealistic. Why couldn't they give 60 seconds to a fat line cook asking for more potatoes? They showed the logistics though?
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Jun 4, 2019 20:08
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How different are Ukrainian and Russian as languages? Is it like the difference between Portuguese and Spanish, the difference between English and German, or what? Their cultures have always seemed very similar to me so I'm kinda interested in learning what the key differences are.
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Jun 4, 2019 20:34
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Chillgamesh posted:How different are Ukrainian and Russian as languages? Is it like the difference between Portuguese and Spanish, the difference between English and German, or what? To me it sounds like a strange fusion of Russian and Polish.
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Jun 4, 2019 20:43
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