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When I did a reformed Bon run, I kind of wished I had chosen Meritocracy instead of their unique doctrine. Equality + Polygamy made things confusing when dudes could matrilineally marry up to four women
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Jun 3, 2019 16:26
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ilitarist posted:Give me three interesting starts outside the British Isles to verify your claim. I'll give you four - Socotra (especially if you can pull off a merchant republic while remaining Nestorian), Zunists, half the counts in southwest France, and Sigurdr Ring for the bonus easy mode blobbing plus reformation.
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Jun 3, 2019 16:32
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Jun 3, 2019 16:34
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^^e: Wow! What does that do? I've never seen this before.No Pants posted:When I did a reformed Bon run, I kind of wished I had chosen Meritocracy instead of their unique doctrine. Equality + Polygamy made things confusing when dudes could matrilineally marry up to four women Nobody forced you to choose polygamy! I have to say, I very rarely reform without taking Astrology. Having two societies to join is so much better than being stuck with just the warrior lodge. Of course, the Zunist and Hellenic pagans can join the Hermetic Society at all times (even unreformed), so they don't need to pick Astrology, which is awesome.
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Jun 3, 2019 16:36
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Torrannor posted:^^e: Wow! What does that do? I've never seen this before. How have you managed to achieve that? Every insane ruler is given the option to pass that law at some point.
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Jun 3, 2019 16:41
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Jedit posted:How have you managed to achieve that? Every insane ruler is given the option to pass that law at some point. I had some bad luck with insane rulers. I had Glitterhoof several times, and twice forced my vassals to wear masks, but I've never seen this.
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Jun 3, 2019 16:42
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I've never passed that law because I always choose No Pants 
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Jun 3, 2019 16:43
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Holy loving poo poo I reformed Tengri with Bloodthirsty Gods (as the Ashina, natch) and so many people are being sacrificed.
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Jun 3, 2019 16:44
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Torrannor posted:Which doesn't help them if you've forbidden internal wars, or make strategic use of calling for realm peace. most supervassals become supervassals due to breeding since plots are easy to detect and foil in various ways, agnatic laws do help for the breeding portion of things some but not by much.
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Jun 3, 2019 16:45
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My merchant game ended in disaster so I've started my first game as a pagan. I picked Rurik from the 786 start. So far I've had the poo poo kicked out of me but somehow joined a warrior lodge, and I think I just figured out how to go on a raid. I am looking forward to being confused some more.
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Jun 3, 2019 16:52
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Montalvo posted:My merchant game ended in disaster so I've started my first game as a pagan. I picked Rurik from the 786 start. So far I've had the poo poo kicked out of me but somehow joined a warrior lodge, and I think I just figured out how to go on a raid. I am looking forward to being confused some more. The test to join the warrior lodge is basically just testing to see if you have the courage to fight. I've not yet tried it with a craven character, but I imagine you can fail this event. But losing itself makes no difference to your chances of joining the lodge. One thing to note: Rurik's son is a Slavic pagan, not a Norse pagan. Just keep that in mind going forward.
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Jun 3, 2019 16:55
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Also kind of humorous, one of my random vassals has an ongoing plot to fabricate a claim on my kingdom. In on the plot are my friend and my Spymaster, both of whom love me and I can dissuade from the faction just by asking. Except as soon as I do and they back out, a few days later they're in on the plot again. I ask them to knock it off. They do. Repeat. I can only assume they're just pocketing chunks of change from Gary the Traitor every time he buys them off, then quitting the faction when I ask and waiting for the next buyoff.
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Jun 3, 2019 16:58
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Torrannor posted:One thing to note: Rurik's son is a Slavic pagan, not a Norse pagan. Just keep that in mind going forward. It's probably a clear indication of how little I understand this game when I tell you that I don't understand what the implication of this is. Should I try to off him and get a Norse baby instead?
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Jun 3, 2019 17:01
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Montalvo posted:It's probably a clear indication of how little I understand this game when I tell you that I don't understand what the implication of this is. Should I try to off him and get a Norse baby instead? When (if) he inherits, you can convert to the religion of your capital. That or just roll with being a Slavic Pagan. 786 Rurik is more set up for that than reforming Germanic anyway.
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Jun 3, 2019 17:05
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indeed, the lodge members do not actually expect an initiate to be able to win their first fight since the entire point of the lodge existing is to make people better at fighting. winning the fight makes you more well respected by your fellows but the benefit is fleeting at best and nonexistent at worst. you CAN hold your ground as a craven character, but it's unlikely. i am not sure what the specifics are though, because there's some pretty complicated code surrounding the initiation duels and i haven't had the time to really unravel it yet.
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Jun 3, 2019 17:10
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DeathChicken posted:Also kind of humorous, one of my random vassals has an ongoing plot to fabricate a claim on my kingdom. In on the plot are my friend and my Spymaster, both of whom love me and I can dissuade from the faction just by asking. Except as soon as I do and they back out, a few days later they're in on the plot again. I ask them to knock it off. They do. Repeat. That's very annoying, and I see it all the time. It wasn't that way a until a few patches back, and makes asking people to stop backing a plot useless. But trying to fabricate a claim on your territory is grounds to imprison him. You could to that without your vassals getting upset. He either gets thrown into prison, where he can't continue his plot, or he escapes and raises his flag in rebellion. After beating him, you can revoke two titles from him without getting opinion penalties with your vassals. Montalvo posted:It's probably a clear indication of how little I understand this game when I tell you that I don't understand what the implication of this is. Should I try to off him and get a Norse baby instead? There are several things that are important for this. The biggest mechanical differences between characters after having a different government (feudal rulers play very different from merchant republics or nomads) is having a different religion. Every religion has unique features. For Germanic (Norse) pagans, you pay only 10% upkeep for raised ships (yes, 90% less!), which makes coastal raiding so profitable for vikings. You also have the unique casus belli to simply conquer any coastal province that's not held by a Norse pagan. You can choose any coastal county not owned by vikings and say "I want that". It's by far the best single province CB. Also, as a Germanic pagan, you can do prepared invasions. While your realm has less than 35 holdings, you can target other realms and announce a prepared invasion for a whole kingdom under their rule. Then for about 2 years, viking soldiers will converge on your capital, giving you a couple thousand free troops. Then you can attack that realm, and if you reach 100% war score, you take the entirety of that kingdom for yourself. Read up here for more info: https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Casus_Belli#Prepared_Invasion Germanic pagans also can travel along major rivers, which is very important for quick travel, especially in Eastern Europe, where there are a lot of major rivers, creating a direct waterway from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea. Slavic pagans are much less exciting. You have some garrison size bonuses, and as a defensive pagan faith, your troops have very big bonuses to defense and morale if you fight in one of your provinces that also follows your religion. You can also choose patron deities. Another important point is the normal pagan county conquest casus belli. You can use it to conquer any county neighboring one of your provinces, as long as they are not of your religion. As Rurik, you can use it against basically anybody around you, because they are either Suomenusko, Slavic or Romuva. If you become Slavic yourself, you cannot use it against the other Slavic realms (who are mostly south/southeast/southwest of you). Germanic pagans are a lot stronger at that point of the game. On the other hand, the Germanic holy sites are in Scandinavia, so you can't reform your own religion without invading that place. And unless the AI reforms the Germanic religion, that means you can't adopt feudalism (or become a merchant republic) while remaining a Germanic pagan. So at some point you may need to switch to Slavic to escape being tribal, which is the worst government form, and not long term viable.
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Jun 3, 2019 17:18
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ilitarist posted:Give me three interesting starts outside the British Isles to verify your claim. Others have answered but the kingdoms and duchies in the south of France are also very good in 769. Muslims to your south, Italians who are weirdly inclined to convert to heresies to your east, and among the most interesting vassal experiences if big C manages to form the HRE.
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Jun 3, 2019 17:19
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As it happens I really wish they would put some of the Slavic Holy Sites somewhere else. Rugen and especially the one in Romania are awful to get to and hold.
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Jun 3, 2019 17:22
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Torrannor posted:info This is super useful, thank you! So if I'm getting what you're saying right, being a Norse pagan carries significant advantages in terms of being able to raid and have CB against certain provinces; but that at some point I will need to switch to Slavic pagan in order to be able to have a real shot at converting to Feudalism (which is what I had hoped to achieve in this game).
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Jun 3, 2019 18:24
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Montalvo posted:This is super useful, thank you! So if I'm getting what you're saying right, being a Norse pagan carries significant advantages in terms of being able to raid and have CB against certain provinces; but that at some point I will need to switch to Slavic pagan in order to be able to have a real shot at converting to Feudalism (which is what I had hoped to achieve in this game). Yes, that's about right. Now, Norse pagans are pretty powerful even in AI hands, so it's not too rare to see them reform the faith. I think about 1 in 5 games I've played since Holy Fury came out has seen the Norse reform on their own. But a 20% chance to be able to adopt feudalism is still pretty low. Of course, it all depends on what happens with Rurik's son. Perhaps he simply refuses to die, so you just have to play as a Slavic ruler. It's not the end of the world, but will make the game a bit harder in the short term. When playing pagans, you need to be aware of the special subjugation CB. If your character has the ambition to form a kingdom, like Novgorod, you can use that CB to subjugate any ruler who has territory in the kingdom of Novgorod. Once you have all those lands, it's usually just a matter of getting enough gold to from the kingdom, since tribal pagans are notoriously broke. You can also use pagan subjugation once per ruler against any pagan you want, which should be used to absorb big neighbors.
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Jun 3, 2019 18:43
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speaking of the early british isles, what the unholy gently caress is up with the king of pictland in 769 in the last few patches? every time i've played in the last month or two, regardless of who i'm playing, that dude ends up like 1500 gold in the hole. i have no idea what the hell he is doing to go into so much debt but it's insane.
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Jun 3, 2019 20:47
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Pictland turned into a king-tier theocracy during my 769-1453 Basque run. So many Scottish popes.
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Jun 3, 2019 22:05
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Well, I guess my solution for my realm control problem is going to be to Lannister the everloving gently caress out of the HRE. The Karlings will have the powerful seats come hell or high water. Family first. I just need to figure out how to do this as a five year old. My spymaster ratfucked my last emperor by calling that favor for a Title Council vote. On the other hand, I've noticed my borders creeping outward without me doing anything. The thing I've noticed in this session is that the HRE is like playing Spain, but instead of constant holy wars with Muslims, it's constant 3rd and 4th string vassal thunderdome while a questionably competent elected emperor tries to hold it all together. edit: goat farts  
Warmachine fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Jun 4, 2019 |
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Jun 3, 2019 23:54
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And of course the Basque wife/guardian gets pregnant and immediately drops dead of Unspecified Illness at 25. The sole heir is still Irish. Sigh
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Jun 4, 2019 10:23
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DeathChicken posted:And of course the Basque wife/guardian gets pregnant and immediately drops dead of Unspecified Illness at 25. The sole heir is still Irish. Sigh What succession system do you use? You will be dropped out of tanistry into gavelkind if you go from a Celtic character to a non-Celtic character.
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Jun 4, 2019 11:15
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Ultimo Oh wow, so I declared on one of my uppity vassals, this one somehow had territories scattered all over the Empire. No real bother, I crush her to 100%, she ends up in prison, I try to force peace...can't, game declares a third party has one of her holdings. So first thing I do is execute her and see if the war ends that way, it does not, someone else just takes over. Okay says I, scroll out and see just what this crazy lady held. Turns out she owned exactly one territory somewhere south of Egypt, it's occupied by some rando she was fighting with, and my local revolt war will never end until I personally sail across the world and retake this single county south of the desert from this guy I don't know. I dislike this game mechanic DeathChicken fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Jun 4, 2019 |
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Jun 4, 2019 13:56
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I've added some DLCs that I've been putting off, and boy howdy, these powerful vassals sure are loving annoying. No, man, you can't even do simple math, I'm not making you the goddamn steward. On a positive note, they seem to rebel much less than they used to.
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Jun 4, 2019 17:04
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ElGroucho posted:I've added some DLCs that I've been putting off, and boy howdy, these powerful vassals sure are loving annoying. No, man, you can't even do simple math, I'm not making you the goddamn steward. make him the steward and send him to collect taxes. once he demands eleventy billions ducats from the local pig farmers they'll take care of the problem for you
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Jun 4, 2019 17:30
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My problem with Conclave is that it seems to remove semi-random events with people trying to get into your council or bringing friends there. Conclave just makes them automatically angry instead of using their ambitions.
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Jun 4, 2019 18:57
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luxury handset posted:make him the steward and send him to collect taxes. once he demands eleventy billions ducats from the local pig farmers they'll take care of the problem for you Goddamn, brilliant, thanks man
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Jun 4, 2019 22:37
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ilitarist posted:My problem with Conclave is that it seems to remove semi-random events with people trying to get into your council or bringing friends there. Conclave just makes them automatically angry instead of using their ambitions. Guys still have those events and ambitions, but not your most powerful vassals. They see being on the council as a right they are being denied, not a privilege. It’s your weaker vassals who will try to worm their way onto the Council.
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Jun 4, 2019 22:40
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There's probably enough events that have been rendered defunct by patches and DLC to fill a series of y/a novels.
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Jun 5, 2019 00:55
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What is the usual MO for taking control of the holy sites for a given religion? As you all told me a few pages ago I am now playing as Rurik's Slavic Pagan son and I figure I'll give faith reformation a shot. Am I supposed to just use the conquest CB to carve my way through to each county with a religious site, or there something more clever I could be doing?
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Jun 5, 2019 02:31
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Montalvo posted:What is the usual MO for taking control of the holy sites for a given religion? As you all told me a few pages ago I am now playing as Rurik's Slavic Pagan son and I figure I'll give faith reformation a shot. Am I supposed to just use the conquest CB to carve my way through to each county with a religious site, or there something more clever I could be doing? More or less, yeah. The usual claim game shenanigans still apply, and you'll get a lot of mileage out of the Become King ambition.
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Jun 5, 2019 04:13
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Wanted to try something new, so I started as the Count of Basel in the Charlemagne start. Fun fact: becoming the Habsburgs will disinherit all members of your old family, your kids included. Do it on a young guy with very few kids. On the upside, Castle Habsburg comes tricked out with a bunch of tier 2 buildings that no one in your neighborhood has the tech for.
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Jun 5, 2019 04:52
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What governs the AI willingness to revoke titles? I'm thinking about getting back into Holy Roman Thunderdome, but I don't want to end up losing my titles because the Emperor decided he'd rather (someone else) be king.
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Jun 5, 2019 06:08
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Funky Valentine posted:Holy loving poo poo I reformed Tengri with Bloodthirsty Gods (as the Ashina, natch) and so many people are being sacrificed. Never really bother with pagans that much so I haven't reformed before. What kind of shenanigans can you get up to? Anything OP?
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Jun 5, 2019 06:16
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Thrasophius posted:Never really bother with pagans that much so I haven't reformed before. What kind of shenanigans can you get up to? Anything OP? You can make some very powerful religions but excepting one or two things it’s still not going to be as powerful as Catholicism out of the box. Bloodthirsty Gods is a perfect example of something that’s really fun and cool on paper, but in practice isn’t that mechanically powerful because when you capture people from an enemy nation you can just execute them anyway so they are still ending up dead. Many other doctrines let you use features popularized by other religions but they’re generally less cool or not as useful - ancestor veneration gives you a form of sainthood, but the Catholic version is generally better because their saintly bloodlines give more prestige and piety, and therefore when you stack them you get an absurd amount of basic currency for free. Agnatic/Enatic clans give you many of the features of Islam, including the Open succession style, but fails to include the Islamic escape valves that eventually let them out of their gender-restricted holes. But you don’t have to deal with decadence so that’s nice. The OP potential comes from your ability to mix and match things as you please. It’s nice to take Meritocracy, which allows you to designate your heir freely, and Stability, which allows you to spend piety to upgrade a courtier’s stats. It doesn’t take a genius to see how those things work together. But still, for the truly most powerful religion out there, it’s still Catholicism. You can hand design the most loving annoying religion to fight against and I will still fear a Catholic bloc with more than about 60 MA more. Crusades are gut chilling after HF. Way worse than GHWs or Jihad. Catholics already have a lot of advantages and only one big drawback, and a Crusade will now pretty much always mobilize the entire Catholic world against a single target. So in addition to just having a lot of advantages, Catholics can also just slap their balls on the table and get poo poo done.
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Jun 5, 2019 07:22
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Eh, I'd say by far reformed Hellenism is the best religion, you get so many nice perks. All the society's of Catholics + warrior lodge + astrology sign + no vassal opinion on raised levies + haruspicy for levy morale + tolerance for other faiths + meritocracy. Though of course odds are to get there you spend at least your early game as Catholic or Orthodox, Catholic being superior to leech free money from the people you're going to eventually murder.
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Jun 5, 2019 08:05
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Vengarr posted:Guys still have those events and ambitions, but not your most powerful vassals. They see being on the council as a right they are being denied, not a privilege. Maybe so, but I rarely see those. I've enjoyed telling someone they should work harder to replace my guy. In general I somewhat like Imperator Rome approach more: it has fewer events but many of them actually interact with character wishes. In CK2 you sometimes get vassal asking for his de jure land or son wants a title. But you never get a great general asking for some recognition and it never feels like character relations and ambitions ever affect their job.
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Jun 5, 2019 08:36
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