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In light of this discussion, how are y’all playing The Estates? The money supply is fixed, and each player can launder money on their turn, but that’s not a private action, considering you hide the money under the main board, despite explicitly not allowing any player to count someone’s stack. Beyond that with paper and pencil you could track how much money everyone has at anytime. Personally I play with hidden money, it’s far more interesting to me.
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Jun 4, 2019 16:09
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al-azad posted:Is money open in 18xx games? We always play with open money because even though it seems unthematic that robber barons would be transparent about their wealth it makes the games more strategic when I can just open a bid with the lowest amount that shuts you out. I think some old guard 18xx players don’t let you know the current contents of company treasury unless you are a shareholder I like the argument that no hidden trackable makes games better because people can play better instead of relying on memory. Money being open in auction games is a big one for me. Also it makes hidden actions more powerful in games like Keyflower. I do recognize that it’s a group by group thing, but I am definitely less AP when stuff is on the table
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Jun 4, 2019 16:09
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ketchup vs catsup posted:In light of this discussion, how are y’all playing The Estates? The Estates shouldn't be too bad AP wise with open money, since the questions basically boil down too "can this person outbid this other person if I put this piece up" and "How much does this person have to pay for this."
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Jun 4, 2019 16:13
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SoftNum posted:The Estates shouldn't be too bad AP wise with open money, since the questions basically boil down too "can this person outbid this other person if I put this piece up" and "How much does this person have to pay for this." Yeah in Estates, unlike Keyflower, there's only ever one thing that people are bidding on at a time. So basically if you want it, you just check how much money other people have and bid appropriately, rather than figuring out strategies around three/four colors of currencies. It does have the problem where people will often look at someone's pile of money and think "oh they are winning" even though money is worth nothing at the end of the game.
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Jun 4, 2019 16:27
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I think there is some conflating of truly unknown information and information that is not always on display (but can be known through memory). I am fine with games that have truly hidden information (e.g. not knowing how many victory points someone currently has, and never having known, because it was never displayed to you). Those games can be fun, because they can leave you guessing and forming strategies not because you knew but did not remember, but simply based on probabilities. What I do not like are perfect information games, but where in order to have the perfect information, you have to have a good memory. Like, I could probably remember things better than I do - I just don't want to spend the time doing it. To me, that type of mechanic can do nothing but increase analysis paralysis. Any game where your performance relies on taking the time to memorize information would suffer from that I think. (People have tended to post in terms of "You remember it or you don't," but it does not work that way - the more time I spend trying to remember something, the more likely I am to remember it - like repeating a list until it is firm in my memory. Yes, some people are faster at it than others, but just because you cannot memorize something instantly does not mean you cannot memorize it with time. And I don't want to have to sit there and try to memorize where counter X is and watch it move around a gameboard trying to keep it in memory, or decide not to spend that time, at the cost of being at a disadvantage.)
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Jun 4, 2019 17:19
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Memory based skill doesn’t really lend to AP because you either remember the information or you dont, and spending more time thinking won’t generally remind you. If the game has long countable hidden information I could see that being a problem but I can’t think of any like that. This is my hill because two of my top three games (Keyflower and T&E) rely on trackable hidden info but it’s not a detriment and both use it to great effect to make the game better.  Mayveena posted:l I hope it’s clear I was not criticizing you for playing that way, merely stating how it changes the game. I don’t think anyone was critiquing others for playing whichever way they like. Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Jun 4, 2019 |
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Jun 4, 2019 17:23
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Bottom Liner posted:This is my hill because two of my top three games (Keyflower and T&E) rely on trackable hidden info but it’s not a detriment and both use it to great effect to make the game better. So says you
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Jun 4, 2019 17:25
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I appreciate hidden trackable info as a tool to reduce AP. If you are paying attention during a game, you can more or less tell what you need to know without knowing exact figures.
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Jun 4, 2019 17:36
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Bottom Liner posted:I hope it’s clear I was not criticizing you for playing that way, merely stating how it changes the game. I don’t think anyone was critiquing others for playing whichever way they like. OK It did feel like a criticism. Yeah playing with open information certainly changes any game really. If you played 1830 with closed money that would absolutely change the game (for the worse in my opinion).
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Jun 4, 2019 17:41
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Bottom Liner posted:Memory based skill doesn’t really lend to AP because you either remember the information or you dont, and spending more time thinking won’t generally remind you. If the game has long countable hidden information I could see that being a problem but I can’t think of any like that. I commented on that earlier; I just don't think that's true. I remember things better the more time I actively spend trying to commit it to memory. I remember hidden pieces that move position better the more slowly I make an opponent move them so that I can recall what is going where. If this weren't true, I would either remember a ten item grocery list or I wouldn't. Instead, if I repeat the grocery list in my head for a period of time, it increases the likelihood that I will remember each item (or more items). Memory does have a strong component as to the amount of time committed to trying to put something into memory. Otherwise, people would not study and reread things for exams. They either would have learned it or not learned it up front. I could see an argument that this isn't "analysis," but the point of AP is really not why it is happening, but that it really slows the game. And memory mechanics do that for me (and others I have played with). And in some ways, while it may not be true "analysis," it is all about mental processing of information.
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Jun 4, 2019 18:12
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I respect people’s right to play how they want, however it’s obvious open information fundamentally changes the gameplay in Keyflower or T&E. In my opinion I agree with BL that at least on paper it would not be a change I’m interested in playing with. I feel like the auction mechanic would be undermined by being able to 100% know the amount needed to lock someone else out from the very first bid. The game would end up having a lot more strategy and less tactics with such definitive knowledge. I really should try it myself before saying anything further but it seems like a very different game. It’s one thing if you want to play with these rules because you like them better, but to feel compelled to play with them for balance is strange. Do you really have people in your group who have memories this good or carry around pencil and paper? I play with what I would consider a diverse and bright group of people and no one has ever demonstrated the ability to memorize that much critical information during a game. If someone insisted on bringing a pen and paper when no one else wanted to my group would tell them to knock it off and we wouldn’t be interested in playing with them again.
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Jun 4, 2019 19:38
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there are only two paths before us for perfect balance - open information, or running your regular gaming group through a series of memory training exercises so that you all can perfectly memorize a deck of cards.
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Jun 4, 2019 19:58
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After a lot of careful thought I believe that the only truly valid mechanics and methods are the ones that I'm personally dialed into
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Jun 4, 2019 20:02
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Tekopo posted:Yeah came in early today before the crowd and they were 100% sold out, sorry Hey mate, do you want to sort out me getting you some money for that figure then?
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Jun 4, 2019 20:04
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SoftNum posted:
I haven't played Qwinto, but I've played Qwixx, and I'll recommend that one for just about anyone.
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Jun 4, 2019 20:16
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Megasabin posted:If someone insisted on bringing a pen and paper when no one else wanted to my group would tell them to knock it off and we wouldn’t be interested in playing with them again. Someone tried this with High Society to track the amount and denominations spent each auction once and we all collectively told him to  immediately. It's a drat party game dude, it's ok if you don't win.
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Jun 4, 2019 20:21
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Pen and paper? Y'all heard of phones??? 🙂 Like I said at the beginning of this conversation, Keyflower felt arbitrary. There was no point in doing much of anything because who knows what would happen. Not my type of gaming. I haven’t played T&E in many years and haven’t missed it.
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Jun 4, 2019 21:08
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thebardyspoon posted:Hey mate, do you want to sort out me getting you some money for that figure then?
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Jun 4, 2019 23:58
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Chill la Chill posted:The other bonus hidden VPs does is to create a fuzzy area so you’re not just going for the leader all the time. You say "bonus", I say "argument for dunking on the guy who owns the game because I think they are probably winning"
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Jun 5, 2019 00:10
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Board Game Thread 4e: There was no point in doing anything because who knows what would happen
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Jun 5, 2019 00:33
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homullus posted:Board Game Thread 4e: There was no point in doing anything because who knows what would happen Except when I DO know what would happen!!!! I'm out now though, I think I've expressed myself probably too much.
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Jun 5, 2019 01:19
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Over in the Civ 6 thread someone actually thought that Through the Ages is the Civ board game. Hmph!!!! Gotta give Tresham his due!!
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Jun 5, 2019 01:20
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Mayveena posted:Pen and paper? Y'all heard of phones??? 🙂 Millenials  
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Jun 5, 2019 02:31
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I will say, having hidden trackable information be open makes a lot more sense in digital adaptations: - it's very easy for someone to track it with pen-and-paper anyway, and there's not even social pressure to stop them - ap is generally already addressed to some extent with turn timers, so giving ap-prone people more information to think about doesn't actually slow things down - they'll typically use their entire timer anyway.
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Jun 5, 2019 04:08
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 So I played Underwater Cities for the first time, and I had a blast. 3 player, teacher ended with 95, my wife got 100, and I had a ridiculous 129 with that city of bio dreams and the endgame card that was points for bio domes or whatever they're called. The overall genre felt kinda like Terraforming Mars, except the things you're doing are interesting decisions. And, seriously, filling my city with those red domes was super satisfying.
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Jun 5, 2019 04:28
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silvergoose posted:So I played Underwater Cities for the first time, and I had a blast. 3 player, teacher ended with 95, my wife got 100, and I had a ridiculous 129 with that city of bio dreams and the endgame card that was points for bio domes or whatever they're called. This has been on my "want to play" list since seeing it and hearing it hyped up at BGG Con in November. Has it had a US retail release? I feel like I haven't seen it on shelves anywhere yet (and rarely shop online/import, because I'm a sap).
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Jun 5, 2019 05:23
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Mayveena posted:Over in the Civ 6 thread someone actually thought that Through the Ages is the Civ board game. Civ 6 isn't the Civ game, but it's definitely THE civ-game.
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Jun 5, 2019 07:31
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silvergoose posted:
I played it three times and each time we were near four hours before we finished. How long did yours last?
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Jun 5, 2019 13:11
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Merauder posted:This has been on my "want to play" list since seeing it and hearing it hyped up at BGG Con in November. Has it had a US retail release? I feel like I haven't seen it on shelves anywhere yet (and rarely shop online/import, because I'm a sap). It did come to retail here in the US and sold out almost immediately.
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Jun 5, 2019 13:11
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Mayveena posted:I played it three times and each time we were near four hours before we finished. How long did yours last? Oof, four hours, that's a lot of downtime. I played Underwater Cities twice, and including rules explanations, it took close to three hours for four players, and two hours for three players.
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Jun 5, 2019 13:31
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Three hours, but the two new players of us were goddamn exhausted from kids so that probably contributed. I wonder if the first few turns are too card dependent, since you're so resource starved until the first production phase that a card or two that gets around some costs would be overly powerful. I'd definitely play again though, it really did feel like some of the better parts of terraforming mars without everything I hate about it. The graduated decks are vital.
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Jun 5, 2019 13:43
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Anyone play Seafall? From reviews it sounded like it severely suffered from overhype, but it’s been a fun exploration game for the few weeks since we started.
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Jun 5, 2019 15:26
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Koryk posted:Anyone play Seafall? From reviews it sounded like it severely suffered from overhype, but it’s been a fun exploration game for the few weeks since we started. I think maybe one person in this thread had maybe an okay experience with it. Maybe. My group found it a huge slog with very few interesting decisions, very little interesting story, bad snowball problems, and the "choose the great diverse starting folks since they look great, then tear them up and all that's left is boring white people" thing at the beginning left a really bad taste in our mouths.
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Jun 5, 2019 15:36
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MM was selling piles of Seafall for $20 each. I considered it at that price but I still held strong.
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Jun 5, 2019 16:31
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SettingSun posted:MM was selling piles of Seafall for $20 each. I considered it at that price but I still held strong. MeepleMart in Toronto has had fat stacks of the game sitting in their store for I feel like years. They would have trouble giving it away from the sound of things.
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Jun 5, 2019 16:48
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Based on recommendation from the thread (al azad I think) I'm probably gonna pick up quartermaster general ww2. -any expansions really needed? -what play advice should I give to new players so they know how the game flows? -ive heard the allies have an advantage, has this been your experience and if so how to balance?
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Jun 5, 2019 17:39
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StashAugustine posted:Based on recommendation from the thread (al azad I think) I'm probably gonna pick up quartermaster general ww2. If you get the WWII version, the airplane expansion is almost required as the game is fairly dull without it. I highly recommend the WWI version instead though, it's such a major improvement that I can't go back to the original anymore
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Jun 5, 2019 18:08
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I think SVWAG also recommend the air stuff and the second edition is including it base?
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Jun 5, 2019 18:14
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silvergoose posted:I think maybe one person in this thread had maybe an okay experience with it. Many people played Seafall but I don't know of a single group that finished it.
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Jun 5, 2019 18:56
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Arcane Wonders announced today that they're handling the US distribution of Smartphone Inc. Anyone play this already / have opinions on it? I've heard mostly good things, but always curious to hear the Goon perspective. Merauder fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Jun 5, 2019 |
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Jun 5, 2019 19:08
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