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M. Discordia posted:Reminder that Chinese imperialism in Venezuela and the left getting all its news from regime-funded propaganda outlets are both unquestionably great things. Telesur and Venezuelanalysis are exactly as unreliable as the New York Times and there no difference at all in the scale of, or reasons for, their biases. I mean, yes? all of these sources are just as prone to throwing out completely obvious bullshit as this tweet. Just because they're trying to tell different lies does not change the fact that all news sources, especially establishment news sources, will lie their rear end off at the slightest opportunity to enhance their backers' positions.
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Jun 5, 2019 01:43
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GreyjoyBastard posted:like i said, mostly joking, dunno poo poo about venezuelan superstitions, and googling "astrology venezuela" is tremendously unhelpful even if I filter out the Guaido stuff I have had different people recommend me to use my underwear inside out to shield myself against witchcraft.
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Jun 5, 2019 01:44
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M. Discordia posted:Reminder that Chinese imperialism in Venezuela and the left getting all its news from regime-funded propaganda outlets are both unquestionably great things. Telesur and Venezuelanalysis are exactly as unreliable as the New York Times and there no difference at all in the scale of, or reasons for, their biases. and the NYT has evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and that Maduro's people burned the American aid. sorry, man. welcome to the 21st century. it kinda sucks here.
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Jun 5, 2019 01:53
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Blue Nation posted:I have had different people recommend me to use my underwear inside out to shield myself against witchcraft. lol I remember when I was doing outreach and political stuff with Salvadoreans I'd find flyers advertising witches and charms for impotence papered everywhere, I thought it was really funny and kinda wanted to check it out. When I was learning Spanish one of our practice books followed the story of a good witch and how she helped people too i don't know why I always think the magic of other countries is cool, but then when an American starts talking to me about the healing powers of quartz crystals I immediately NOPE right out. . .
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Jun 5, 2019 02:50
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I mean they're not wrong. When Western news outlets still refer to it as a massacre of 10,000 people it's absolutely propaganda.
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Jun 5, 2019 05:35
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M. Discordia posted:Reminder that Chinese imperialism in Venezuela and the left getting all its news from regime-funded propaganda outlets are both unquestionably great things. Telesur and Venezuelanalysis are exactly as unreliable as the New York Times and there no difference at all in the scale of, or reasons for, their biases. Telesur has since deleted that tweet. Sometimes you get a story wrong, we all make mistakes
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Jun 5, 2019 07:10
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Flavahbeast posted:Telesur has since deleted that tweet. Sometimes you get a story wrong, we all make mistakes What do you call an outlet that gets every story wrong?
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Jun 5, 2019 08:21
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fnox posted:What do you call an outlet that gets every story wrong? The home of Rachael Maddow.
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Jun 5, 2019 08:38
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fnox posted:What do you call an outlet that gets every story wrong? the new york times
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Jun 5, 2019 13:06
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Flavahbeast posted:Telesur has since deleted that tweet. Sometimes you get a story wrong, we all make mistakes How on earth would a Venezuelan network writing in this century "accidentally" get a 30 year old story of uncontroversial truth wrong? There is room for debates on how many people were killed and harassed precisely, but not dispute on the overall occurence.
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Jun 5, 2019 13:48
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nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:How on earth would a Venezuelan network writing in this century "accidentally" get a 30 year old story of uncontroversial truth wrong? There is room for debates on how many people were killed and harassed precisely, but not dispute on the overall occurence. It might have been a hot take posted by a tankie employee with access to Twitter, and not actually approved by the editorial staff. If something like that got deleted ASAP I wouldn't necessarily blame the network, kind of like that tweet about MBS (or was it MBZ?) being a shithead that was that was posted on Al Jazeera's Twitter either by a rogue employee or by hackers (whether the hackers were false flaggers or just 4 lulz). WhiskeyWhiskers posted:I mean they're not wrong. When Western news outlets still refer to it as a massacre of 10,000 people it's absolutely propaganda. I have literally never seen this, and Wikipedia quotes the highest source as saying 2600. I tend to see estimates of more like dozens to low hundreds on the rare times numbers are quoted. Usually articles are vague about the number of deaths, but it's not like there's any common consensus as to how many deaths are necessary to constitute a "massacre". "Massacre" is more about lopsided force rather than a necessary allusion to a large number of people. Saladman fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Jun 5, 2019 |
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Jun 5, 2019 14:45
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Saladman posted:I have literally never seen this, and Wikipedia quotes the highest source as saying 2600. I tend to see estimates of more like dozens to low hundreds on the rare times numbers are quoted. Usually articles are vague about the number of deaths, but it's not like there's any common consensus as to how many deaths are necessary to constitute a "massacre". "Massacre" is more about lopsided force rather than a necessary allusion to a large number of people. Here's one https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-42465516 Usually 'massacres' aren't caused by soldiers being burnt alive in a bus and others beaten to death or hanged by rioters.
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Jun 5, 2019 15:12
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are we really going to defend the deng xiaoping regime killing a bunch of students because it's tactically convenient
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Jun 5, 2019 15:17
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V. Illych L. posted:are we really going to defend the deng xiaoping regime killing a bunch of students because it's tactically convenient Apparently so. The cited BBC post does *not* claim that 10000 were killed, merely that a cable was sent at the time citing a source. But this is horribly off-topic. Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Jun 5, 2019 |
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Jun 5, 2019 15:22
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V. Illych L. posted:are we really going to defend the deng xiaoping regime killing a bunch of students because it's tactically convenient No, because it's the truth. Rust Martialis posted:The cited BBC post does *not* claim that 10000 were killed, merely that a cable was sent at the time citing a source. But this is horribly off-topic. I'm glad the BBC writes stories about all declassified documents. WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Jun 5, 2019 |
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Jun 5, 2019 15:27
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:I'm glad the BBC writes stories about all declassified documents. Dude, *you* cited the BBC document, don't blame someone else because it *contradicts* you.
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Jun 5, 2019 15:34
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Rust Martialis posted:Dude, *you* cited the BBC document, don't blame someone else because it *contradicts* you. What? I meant that there's a reason they wrote the story. It's ridiculous to say it's not claiming a death toll of 10,000, because it's simply citing a newly declassified document. The author obviously thinks the document has some relevance.
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Jun 5, 2019 15:37
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:What? I meant that there's a reason they wrote the story. It's ridiculous to say it's not claiming a death toll of 10,000, because it's simply citing a newly declassified document. The author obviously thinks the document has some relevance. Ah, the Downing Street Memo approach.
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Jun 5, 2019 15:39
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V. Illych L. posted:are we really going to defend the deng xiaoping regime killing a bunch of students because it's tactically convenient Lol, he did the exact same thing in this exact same thread a month ago.
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Jun 5, 2019 20:19
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tim russert said 10,000 on meet the press according to the columbia journalism review. The Myth of Tiananmen quote:It is hard to find a journalist who has not contributed to the misimpression. Rereading my own stories published after Tiananmen, I found several references to the “Tiananmen massacre.” At the time, I considered this space-saving shorthand. I assumed the reader would know that I meant the massacre that occurred in Beijing after the Tiananmen demonstrations. But my fuzziness helped keep the falsehood alive. Given enough time, such rumors can grow even larger and more distorted. When a journalist as careful and well-informed as Tim Russert, NBC’s Washington bureau chief, can fall prey to the most feverish versions of the fable, the sad consequences of reportorial laziness become clear. On May 31 on Meet the Press, Russert referred to “tens of thousands” of deaths in Tiananmen Square.
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Jun 6, 2019 03:19
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R. Guyovich posted:tim russert said 10,000 on meet the press according to the columbia journalism review. Why didn't you post about that yesterday?
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Jun 6, 2019 03:36
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https://twitter.com/MV_Eng/status/1...ingawful.com%2F
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Jun 6, 2019 04:09
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captainblastum posted:Why didn't you post about that yesterday? yesterday, june 5 beijing time? because i didn't check the thread
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Jun 6, 2019 07:44
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What a loving joke. That they thought they could pull this kind of stunt after gutting the state department is laughable. They'd be better off just invading with US troops, and that would be a colossal gently caress up on its own
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Jun 6, 2019 08:54
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https://twitter.com/AmayaCarpintero/status/1136095935459733507?s=20
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Jun 6, 2019 14:15
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How come you never complain when you hear of government officials doing the exact same thing?
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Jun 6, 2019 14:55
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fnox posted:How come you never complain when you hear of government officials doing the exact same thing? This is textbook whataboutism. Guaido claims to be oppressed by a dictatorial regime. What kind of authoritarian dictator allows coup plotters to hang out at exclusive nightclubs?
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Jun 6, 2019 15:04
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Well if the argument is that this Guaido guy is a true man of the people and would be such an amazing leader that Venezuelans would be better off getting carpet bombed just to put this guy in charge then yeah I'm not sure "well if Maduro does it, it's fine for Guaido to do too" is the route you want to go
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Jun 6, 2019 15:05
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:This is textbook whataboutism. Guaido claims to be oppressed by a dictatorial regime. What kind of authoritarian dictator allows coup plotters to hang out at exclusive nightclubs? What was that npr headline last week? A Fugitive In his Own Country?
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Jun 6, 2019 15:06
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imo slamming politicians for going to night clubs is bad no matter their political persuasion that he feels it's safe to do this does say something about the situation in venezuela, though i'm not entirely sure what
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Jun 6, 2019 15:07
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it could be that he's not persecuted, and it could be that the government can't reach him in this mileu
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Jun 6, 2019 15:08
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V. Illych L. posted:imo slamming politicians for going to night clubs is bad no matter their political persuasion You're safe anywhere in Venezuela with enough bodyguards. If you wanna test how safe the country is, go see it for yourself. No, really, go for a vacation there, you'll have a grand old time, seems like. CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:This is textbook whataboutism. Guaido claims to be oppressed by a dictatorial regime. What kind of authoritarian dictator allows coup plotters to hang out at exclusive nightclubs? You didn't answer the question. Why are paragons of socialism sending their children abroad in yatchs, partying and living like kings?
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Jun 6, 2019 15:11
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well even the best goons that money can hire aren't to put up much of a fight against the security services
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Jun 6, 2019 15:13
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V. Illych L. posted:well even the best goons that money can hire aren't to put up much of a fight against the security services Immediately arresting him the first chance they get would just, uh, prove that it is an authoritarian dictatorship after all, lol. Is this even something that is in contention considering how frequently Maduro has arrested opposition politicians before? He won't touch Guaido for now because of the optics, seems pretty obvious to me. The second he loses favour with America and drops out of the spotlight he's getting put away. I'm not even gonna bother listing just how many opposition politicians have been detained by Maduro.
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Jun 6, 2019 15:18
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honestly? openly calling for foreign intervention and a military coup would've gotten him arrested most places in the world - this has little to do with optics, you can't let people do that my take here is that the PSUV don't see him as a threat and would rather have him figureheading the opposition than someone else who might be more dangerous
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Jun 6, 2019 15:22
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V. Illych L. posted:honestly? openly calling for foreign intervention and a military coup would've gotten him arrested most places in the world - this has little to do with optics, you can't let people do that You're aware that's how Chavez got created, right? There's no point in detaining him if he can cause more damage to your regime behind bars. Like Leopoldo Lopez did. I mean, just to use this take. brugroffil posted:What was that npr headline last week? A Fugitive In his Own Country? Imagine the NPR headline if he got arrested. Would be great material. Wouldn't him being arrested just serve as further proof of Maduro's government being a dictatorship that imprisons their opponents? fnox fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Jun 6, 2019 |
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Jun 6, 2019 15:29
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fnox posted:Imagine the NPR headline if he got arrested. Would be great material. Wouldn't him being arrested just serve as further proof of Maduro's government being a dictatorship that imprisons their opponents? Yes imagine if someone called Maduro a dictator for arresting a coup plotter and not for simply being an enemy of the US. The shock and horror would completely change western media's coverage of him. What would it matter?
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Jun 6, 2019 15:51
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really if they are arresting other opposition leaders that ship has sailed i think foreign perception is already locked for maduro's government; there is practically nothing they can do to change it one way or the other, so they probably don't care much. guaido has shown himself to be a very useful enemy, in that he's clearly completely incompetent and easy to tally against, so he gets to party away his credibility it's worth noting that the opposition has also not been entirely constructive in the run-up to the current situation - the breakdown of talks in the vatican, for instance, is one sign here. imo the opposition shot itself in the foot when it aligned itself with the USA, because it legitimises the PSUV critique that they're yankee lackeys - now they're probably never getting away from it
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Jun 6, 2019 15:59
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fnox posted:You're aware that's how Chavez got created, right? There's no point in detaining him if he can cause more damage to your regime behind bars. Like Leopoldo Lopez did. I mean, just to use this take. you just try to overthrow the government by force ONE TIME and people start talking about you like you committed a crime
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Jun 6, 2019 16:00
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Yes imagine if someone called Maduro a dictator for arresting a coup plotter and not for simply being an enemy of the US. The shock and horror would completely change western media's coverage of him. What would it matter? Well, what would you say then? Would it be justified? To put Guaido in jail? Because I mean, they arrested Guaido's #2, Edgar Zambrano. He's in jail right now. If the argument is supposed to be, the fact that he's free means that there isn't a dictatorship in Venezuela, then I'm very curious to hear what you think about the other people who are in jail.
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Jun 6, 2019 16:03
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