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chitoryu12 posted:Does anyone have a good source on the clothing worn by 18th century fur trappers and mountain men? Specifically construction of the iconic buckskin outfits.
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Jun 6, 2019 20:58
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zoux posted:https://twitter.com/katemond/status/1135863927483633664 https://twitter.com/tedsimonds/status/1136008394379354113
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Jun 6, 2019 20:59
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LatwPIAT posted:I just read up on Erwin Gast's assault on the Factory Administration Building/Commissar's House during Operation Hubertus, and I found it put lies to a lot of the ideas of German military competence. Imagine you're in charge of the 50th Armoured Combat Engineer Battalion, and you've been tasked with attacking a massive, heavily fortified building that is nearly impervious to anything short of heavy artillery fire and lets the Red Army dominate the battlefield. for the soviets, i understand that the answer was submachine guns and lots and lots of hand grenades chuck one into the room, let it go boom, then shoot whatever's still moving, rinse and repeat
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Jun 6, 2019 22:10
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LatwPIAT posted:I just read up on Erwin Gast's assault on the Factory Administration Building/Commissar's House during Operation Hubertus, and I found it put lies to a lot of the ideas of German military competence. Imagine you're in charge of the 50th Armoured Combat Engineer Battalion, and you've been tasked with attacking a massive, heavily fortified building that is nearly impervious to anything short of heavy artillery fire and lets the Red Army dominate the battlefield. One shouldn't make sweeping statements about the entirety of German military competence based solely on Erwin Gast.  The nitty-gritty of close combat in Stalingrad was that, trying to figure out who controlled what and when was incredibly hard for anyone not directly on the frontlines. There are plenty of stories out there of areas being cleared, or traded, numerous times, either because reinforcements showed up, suppression from artillery/etc forced retreats, or renewed attacks at night became especially murderous. Grenades and booby traps were incredibly common, and I believe Soviet doctrine, at the very least, supports that, where they adopted a policy of simply grenade'ing every room before sweeping them with PPSh fire. Obviously, automatic weapons were king of hill in such cramped environments.
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Jun 6, 2019 22:12
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Obviously, automatic weapons were king of hill in such cramped environments.
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Jun 6, 2019 22:15
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HEY GUNS posted:is it difficult to bring them to bear there, or are the barrels short Submachine guns, so short barrels.
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Jun 6, 2019 22:16
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Jobbo_Fett posted:One shouldn't make sweeping statements about the entirety of German military competence based solely on Erwin Gast. I should probably have said something using the words "exemplifies" and "counterexample" but those words eluded me both on the draft and the editing run. 
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Jun 6, 2019 22:51
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Russia is mad about Chernobylquote:Of his story, Muradov says, “One theory holds that Americans had infiltrated the Chernobyl nuclear power plant and many historians do not deny that, on the day of the explosion, an agent of the enemy’s intelligence services was present at the station.” The heroes, then, will not be the scientists, soldiers, and civilians who helped prevent a further spread of radiation, but rather the KGB officers trying to thwart these CIA operatives. I believe this is actually the second time they'd be making that movie.
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Jun 6, 2019 22:55
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it must be difficult to be a russian propagandist: you have to maintain that the tsarist regime, the communist regime, and the present regime are all good. Most years you'd be talking about that would be fine, but how do you treat the civil war? "both this guy and the guy killing him are in the right"? the triple axel of propaganda
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Jun 6, 2019 22:58
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HEY GUNS posted:it must be difficult to be a russian propagandist: you have to maintain that the tsarist regime, the communist regime, and the present regime are all good. Most years you'd be talking about that would be fine, but how do you treat the civil war? "both this guy and the guy killing him are in the right"? the triple axel of propaganda When in doubt, it's the West's fault.
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Jun 6, 2019 23:00
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zoux posted:Russia is mad about Chernobyl Ah, so Russian is mad about a TV show that accuses the Soviets of trying to cover up the actual cause of the accident so they will make a TV show that covers up the cause of the accident. Makes sense.
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Jun 6, 2019 23:03
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Epicurius posted:When in doubt, it's the West's fault. edit: at least the extremely online mad about old french politics guys are not pro- and anti- Revolution at the same time, most of them pick one HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Jun 6, 2019 |
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Jun 6, 2019 23:03
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Ice Fist posted:Ah, so Russian is mad about a TV show that accuses the Soviets of trying to cover up the actual cause of the accident so they will make a TV show that covers up the cause of the accident. Makes sense. Ah. You understand the dialectic now, tovarisch! <We've been activated!>
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Jun 6, 2019 23:51
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I don't think that this came from here but I've been following a recap thread by a Russian dude who grew up in the late Soviet era and he's extremely complementary towards the authenticity of the setting, the characterization and the way it portrays the Russian people. https://twitter.com/SlavaMalamud/status/1132029943297265664 I was curious if others from Russia would agree with this though https://twitter.com/SlavaMalamud/status/1132702229193003009 zoux fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Jun 7, 2019 |
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Jun 7, 2019 00:12
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zoux posted:I don't think that this came from here but I've been following a recap thread by a Russian dude who grew up in the late Soviet era and he's extremely complementary towards the authenticity of the setting, the characterization and the way it portrays the Russian people. oh yeah, Slava Malamud made me want to watch the show in the first place. Also if you've spent any time in a thrift store in East Germany, or an old person's house...the shots I've seen from the show are the same--the tchotkes, what the clothing is made out of, the patterns on the cloth itself. The street lights and apartment buildings fill me with a pang of nostalgia but I believe the outside shots were filmed in Lithuania or something--I don't think there's enough room in Dresden for distance shots not to have something distinctly "dresden" in the background. Also most of the buildings in Dresden may have been built in the 60s, 70s, and 80s but many of the ones with people still living in them (there are some empty hulks) have been lovingly maintained since then, so you'll have one of those apartment blocks with modern window/balcony things, modern paint. The Palace of Culture just had a new roof put on it. edit: inspiring messages on the roof are one hundred percent real, only the language is different. This is the post office I use when I'm in Dresden. 
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Jun 7, 2019 |
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Jun 7, 2019 00:17
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V. Illych L. posted:for the soviets, i understand that the answer was submachine guns and lots and lots of hand grenades Tactics later perfected in noted military documentary Call of Duty. I don't remember if it was in this thread or the cold war thread, but someone had translated a comic given to the soldiers explaining how to clear a building and I don't even remember them mentioning SMG fire, it was mostly "throw grenades and when you think they're dead, throw more grenades"
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Jun 7, 2019 00:54
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Don Gato posted:Tactics later perfected in noted military documentary Call of Duty. Ensign Expendable in the previous milhist thread, actually, and they were all for SMGs. quote:"Approach the enemy by hidden ways: trenches, ditches, breaches in the walls and fences. Move while prone. Use craters and ruins, you can hide well here. And then: a brave dash forward.
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Jun 7, 2019 03:32
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https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/what-hbos-chernobyl-got-right-and-what-it-got-terribly-wrongquote:Herein lies one of the series’ biggest flaws: its failure to accurately portray Soviet relationships of power. There are exceptions, flashes of brilliance that shed light on the bizarre workings of Soviet hierarchies....[but in general]...repetitive and ridiculous are the many scenes of heroic scientists confronting intransigent bureaucrats by explicitly criticizing the Soviet system of decision-making. In Episode 3, for example, Legasov asks, rhetorically, “Forgive me—maybe I’ve just spent too much time in my lab, or maybe I’m just stupid. Is this really the way it all works? An uninformed, arbitrary decision that will cost who knows how many lives that is made by some apparatchik, some career Party man?” Yes, of course this is the way it works, and, no, he hasn’t been in his lab so long that he didn’t realize that this is how it works. The fact of the matter is, if he didn’t know how it worked, he would never have had a lab. This is interesting. One counterpoint might be that these people are speaking out loud not for each other, but for the audience. People don't usually talk out loud to themselves as often as they do in stage plays either. Another counterpoint might be that these speaking-truth-to-power main characters are the usual American active good-guy protagonists and they do everything that American drama has conditioned us to think one should do--only they lose. That this isn't just about the USSR, but about the movies. It's Erin Brokovich or A Civil Action in Hell. And the main character hangs himself, which his historical counterpoint did too, possibly for the same reason. Or the writing's bad in this specific area, or Gessen is wrong. In any case, the lines Gessen quotes are Hollywood. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Jun 7, 2019 |
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Jun 7, 2019 03:51
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this is kind of milhist, in that...uh...oh dear. https://twitter.com/shahselbe/status/1136307111262949376
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Jun 7, 2019 04:27
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whole areas gonna be aphid free. just absolutely pest free plants in that whole region
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Jun 7, 2019 04:39
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zoux posted:I don't think that this came from here but I've been following a recap thread by a Russian dude who grew up in the late Soviet era and he's extremely complementary towards the authenticity of the setting, the characterization and the way it portrays the Russian people. I can imagine that with international media, where most movies come from the western world that has spent the last 80 years denigrating your country and your people, it could really get to you after a while. It's really a shame that their government is a hive of kleptocrats prone to waging wars of aggression on their neighbors and in the process of trying to sabotage most of the western world. There's a lot I like about the people.
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Jun 7, 2019 04:42
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zoux posted:Good D-Day trolling https://twitter.com/pptsapper/status/1136456314740232192
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Jun 7, 2019 06:19
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Didn't the US Army lose most of its top brass to Louisiana at about the same time?
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Jun 7, 2019 06:21
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GotLag posted:Didn't the US Army lose most of its top brass to Louisiana at about the same time? What the gently caress are you talking about? It's like you heard there were Army maneuvers roughly contemporaneous with the Soviet invasion of Finland and vomited up some idiocy because of it.
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Jun 7, 2019 06:26
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In the absence of a better source, https://www.historynet.com/failure-not-option.htm :quote:The big Louisiana Maneuvers, staged in August and September 1941, served as a proving ground for Marshall’s officers. Only 11 of the 42 generals who commanded a division, a corps, or an army in the maneuvers would go on to command in combat. Just one of the prewar army’s senior generals, Walter Krueger, would be given a top command in World War II.
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Jun 7, 2019 06:44
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That's not losing brass to Louisiana, which is the gibberish you said. They weren't fighting Louisiana. Words actually mean things.
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Jun 7, 2019 06:47
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I'm sensing some negative vibes
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Jun 7, 2019 06:56
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GotLag posted:In the absence of a better source, https://www.historynet.com/failure-not-option.htm : Never forget Roosevelt's purges
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Jun 7, 2019 07:26
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LatwPIAT posted:Anyway, I've been on a Stalingrad kicker lately. What were the nitty-gritty of house-to-house fighting in Stalingrad? How did German and Soviet troops go on about assaulting a building, and how did they go on about fighting from room to room? Like, which weapons do you bring to bear, where do you attack, how many soldiers do you need to attack the average Stalinka, etc.? Questions with, uh, many different answers. - The soviets used direct fire howitzers against buildings where possible, such as capping a building with hastily assembled 122mm (and at 200+ yards 203mm) guns. The 62nd army used more grenades in 'Grad than they did in the rest of the war combined. Another popular tactic was creeping through smoke cover or through buildings to launch an unguided artillery rocket into an enemy position. - As has been said, the soviets used PPzhs and hand grenades to great effect, though melee with knives, clubs and spades were definitely also used if necessary. Eventually, all clearings were handled by 'storm groups', special ad hoc groups of below company-strength men, supplemented with pioneers and special weapons (LMG, anti-tank rifles) as were available. Soviet chemical specialists played a role here, using smoke grenades and fire projectors. - Germans, conversely, used company-plus size groups, which makes sense since they were the offensive party, but had less time to get used to urban warfare than had the soviets. Sevastopol and Odessa were not defended in the streets of the city itself, and less was made of proper isolation and clearing of areas than just bringing overwhelming force to bear. Ironically, some German detachments, as you point out, used badly planned attacks by large groups, something we normally criticize the soviets for.
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Jun 7, 2019 09:01
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HEY GUNS posted:it must be difficult to be a russian propagandist: you have to maintain that the tsarist regime, the communist regime, and the present regime are all good. Most years you'd be talking about that would be fine, but how do you treat the civil war? "both this guy and the guy killing him are in the right"? the triple axel of propaganda To be fair I'm not sure a single columnist in The Moscow Times can accurately be described as the entire nation of 150 million people, Russia.
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Jun 7, 2019 09:34
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Is there much left of a building after you hit it with a 152 or 203 mm shell?
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Jun 7, 2019 09:40
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GotLag posted:Is there much left of a building after you hit it with a 152 or 203 mm shell? Depends on structural integrity, angle of hit and so on.. But there's going to be a bunch of suppressed germans, which is the main thing. 203mm destroyed most buidlings and fortifications IIRC.
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Jun 7, 2019 09:54
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LatwPIAT posted:Anyway, I've been on a Stalingrad kicker lately. What were the nitty-gritty of house-to-house fighting in Stalingrad? How did German and Soviet troops go on about assaulting a building, and how did they go on about fighting from room to room? Like, which weapons do you bring to bear, where do you attack, how many soldiers do you need to attack the average Stalinka, etc.? I found a US Army Command and General Staff College report from 1975 that you might be interested in, Breaching Walls in Urban Warfare. The historical analysis (including Stalingrad) starts on page 32 (page 40 of the PDF). It also covers the battle of Ortona, sometimes called the Italian Stalingrad, in which the Canadians fought house to house, breaching through adjoining walls of row houses to avoid German defensive fire along the streets. The Ortona section also has a bit more detail on the specifics of breaching: quote:Unit pioneers set a 'Beehive' demolition charge in position against the wall on the top floor, and exploded it while the attacking section sheltered at ground level. Before the smoke and dust had subsided the infantry were up the stairs and through the gap to oust the enemy from the adjoining building. In this manner the Canadians cleared whole rows of houses without once appearing in the street. GotLag fucked around with this message at 10:19 on Jun 7, 2019 |
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Jun 7, 2019 10:16
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Tias posted:Questions with, uh, many different answers. Thanks. The initial attempt on the Factory Administration Building was made with breaching charges to create an ingress in a presumably less well defended area. Did the Red Army use that kind of breaching tactics against buildings to any significant degree? I also got the impression from reading about the assault on the Apothecary and Factory Administration Building that German standard practice was to ingress, climb to the top of the building, and fight their way down: a very specific way of dealing with a house obstacle. Did the Red Army do the same thing as a matter of practice?
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Jun 7, 2019 10:22
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GotLag posted:I found a US Army Command and General Staff College report from 1975 that you might be interested in, Breaching Walls in Urban Warfare. The historical analysis (including Stalingrad) starts on page 32 (page 40 of the PDF). It also covers the battle of Ortona, sometimes called the Italian Stalingrad, in which the Canadians fought house to house, breaching through adjoining walls of row houses to avoid German defensive fire along the streets. Wouldn't the enemy be able to figure out the meaning of the blasts advancing up the street and then lie in wait for you as you laboriously fumble with the fuse on your nth demolition charge for the day? aphid_licker fucked around with this message at 10:56 on Jun 7, 2019 |
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Jun 7, 2019 10:47
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aphid_licker posted:Wouldn't the enemy be able to figure out the meaning of the blasts advancing up the street and then lie in wait for you as you fumble with the fuse on your nth demolition charge for the day? Seems to require a level of situational awareness that would be hard to achieve during house-to-house fighting.
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Jun 7, 2019 10:55
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Gort posted:Seems to require a level of situational awareness that would be hard to achieve during house-to-house fighting. I don't even begin to have a basis to judge that but they allegedly used this tactic so it must've worked so maybe you're right.
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Jun 7, 2019 10:58
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aphid_licker posted:Wouldn't the enemy be able to figure out the meaning of the blasts advancing up the street and then lie in wait for you as you fumble with the fuse on your nth demolition charge for the day? This is Ortona:  Because the buildings along a street are separated by common walls, there's basically no way to see or attack an enemy except by blowing a hole in the wall first yourself. Which I guess you could do if you had the situational awareness, but it leaves you with a hole in the wall that the Canadians were trying to breach anyway.
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Jun 7, 2019 11:10
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is there a manual for what to do if you are being attacked like that?
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Jun 7, 2019 11:23
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Wait just slightly downstairs / around the corner of the wall in question, once you hear the bang very very quickly throw grenades / spray SMG fire through the hole. Or affix your own demo charge to your side of the wall, wait for them to blast their way into the house next door, give em five seconds to really pile in there, then boom.
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Jun 7, 2019 11:30
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