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Arthil posted:Simply having them be an antagonist in regards to resources is enough, really. There's actually a surprising lack of real friction between humans/elves/dwarves for example along those lines too. A lot more drama to be had if your enemy isn't your enemy for being "bad", but because if you don't win your people suffer. Sure, there are also no shortage of guilt-free enemies, like undead, non-sapient creatures, and fascists. If you’re introducing a different race of sapient humanoids, it should be because you want them to be people you can interact with as people. Otherwise just put in vampires or something if you want weapon users, or set up some clear enemy humans through setting details.
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Jun 5, 2019 06:47
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Arthil posted:Simply having them be an antagonist in regards to resources is enough, really. There's actually a surprising lack of real friction between humans/elves/dwarves for example along those lines too. A lot more drama to be had if your enemy isn't your enemy for being "bad", but because if you don't win your people suffer. 
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Jun 5, 2019 07:01
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https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3532243 The Tolkien thread has been debating orcs as The Other for ages, well worth a read.
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Jun 5, 2019 11:06
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Ultiville posted:Sure, there are also no shortage of guilt-free enemies, like undead, non-sapient creatures, and fascists. If you’re introducing a different race of sapient humanoids, it should be because you want them to be people you can interact with as people. Otherwise just put in vampires or something if you want weapon users, or set up some clear enemy humans through setting details. Unfortunately, thanks to the rear end in a top hat racist preppers that want to shoot black people, "zombies" is often code for "black people," of course. So that's a fun thing to accidentally run into. (This is one area where the racists are legit appropriating a thing, tho, rather than a core racist idea.)
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Jun 5, 2019 13:03
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Mors Rattus posted:Unfortunately, thanks to the rear end in a top hat racist preppers that want to shoot black people, "zombies" is often code for "black people," of course. So that's a fun thing to accidentally run into. Unless it's Resident Evil 5, in which case the zombies are explicitly black and portrayed using the visual language of racist old Hollywood films to demonize their blackness.
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Jun 5, 2019 13:28
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I like that one Star Trek episode where the Klingon lawyer talked about how Klingons weren't actually inherently violent assholes like humans perceive them to be, but the warrior caste took power in a coup a couple of decades ago and reduced other professions to serfs. So since the violent assholes are running the show, ambitious people join the violent rear end in a top hat club, and the violent assholes are the only ones that foreigners interact with. Also neatly explained how a society composed entirely of pigheaded angry shouty guys would function (it doesn't).
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Jun 5, 2019 14:05
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Liquid Communism posted:It's interesting to note how much this stuff colors our historical perspectives. Especially given the reverence for Rome, and how much of Western thought comes from it; when you consider that Roman depictions of other cultures were heavily colored by how their wars with them went. If Rome won, they played up how noble, cultured, and civilized their opponents were. If Rome lost, then they were clearly fighting barbarian savages who knew only warfare. I don't think that's entirely accurate for Rome. They portrayed the Gauls/Celts from around the time Caesar rose to power as barbaric and warlike, meanwhile Caesar trampled all over them in an insanely short period of time for the era. One of the big things Caesar wrote in trying to legitimize his war there (which lots of people didn't like and thought was bogus) was that the close to Rome tribes (edit: close physically and in some cases political/military allies) were partly "civilized", had some Roman dress, etc. But then he claimed there were these more savage, distant tribes that just wanted to gently caress poo poo up for Rome, and Caesar needed to nip that in the bud. I think whether the society in question was sufficiently Roman/Greek enough plays in a lot, as does the era of Rome you're talking about.
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Jun 5, 2019 14:16
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Geisladisk posted:I like that one Star Trek episode where the Klingon lawyer talked about how Klingons weren't actually inherently violent assholes like humans perceive them to be, but the warrior caste took power in a coup a couple of decades ago and reduced other professions to serfs. So since the violent assholes are running the show, ambitious people join the violent rear end in a top hat club, and the violent assholes are the only ones that foreigners interact with. Early on in TNG, there was some promising engagement around the subject too. Riker's exchange aboard a Klingon vessel implied there was a lot more going on in their society than just warfare. There was also a lot of subtext that Worf's obsessions about warrior honor and martial pride were very much the essentialism of an immigrant child idealizing trappings of a culture with which they had limited direct experience. Of course, then lazy writers either missed that nuance or couldn't be bothered to deal with it, so no it turned out Worf was right that the Klingons were dumb violent idiots obsessed with honor, with only a few attempts (like the quoted episode above) to give them more of a story.
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Jun 5, 2019 14:56
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LatwPIAT posted:Unless it's Resident Evil 5, in which case the zombies are explicitly black and portrayed using the visual language of racist old Hollywood films to demonize their blackness. What’s that now?
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Jun 5, 2019 15:20
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:What’s that now? I remember the first trailer for Resident Evil 5 upset a lot of people because it showed a white protagonist killing waves of black NPCs. They pretty quickly changed the NPCs to both black/white and added a black second main character, although she's more of a sidekick if I remember right. It's really complicated and I don't know enough about the game or the dev team to really know anything for sure, but it doesn't help the "it's not racist!" camp that the Chief Producer got a lot of inspiration from the movie Black Hawk Down. I dunno about you, but that doesn't sound great to me
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Jun 5, 2019 15:32
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Desiden posted:Early on in TNG, there was some promising engagement around the subject too. Riker's exchange aboard a Klingon vessel implied there was a lot more going on in their society than just warfare. There was also a lot of subtext that Worf's obsessions about warrior honor and martial pride were very much the essentialism of an immigrant child idealizing trappings of a culture with which they had limited direct experience. The episodes that featured Worf's kid also show him as basically just a kid with a wrinkly forehead. It keeps coming back to lazy writing. A story about the in-group heroically struggling against the militant other and making Hard Choices practically writes itself.
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Jun 5, 2019 15:50
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:What’s that now? Look up the village section, where the zombie-esque enemies are literal spear chucking, grass skirt wearing cartoon stereotypes.
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Jun 5, 2019 16:28
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JIZZ DENOUEMENT posted:What’s that now? Was that the one with a stage that depicted an African village? I remember the uproar and thinking that was dangerous territory for game developers and their overwhelmingly white/SE asian staff. Never played it though.
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Jun 5, 2019 16:30
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Desiden posted:Early on in TNG, there was some promising engagement around the subject too. Riker's exchange aboard a Klingon vessel implied there was a lot more going on in their society than just warfare. There was also a lot of subtext that Worf's obsessions about warrior honor and martial pride were very much the essentialism of an immigrant child idealizing trappings of a culture with which they had limited direct experience. Not to go all star trek talk (and I only bring this up cause I recently rewatched a bunch of TNG), but a bunch of the later episodes kinda show Worf as out of touch with how things go and that the Klingon empire isn't really all about honor or whatever and how he keeps being disillusioned because of that. I believe that's stressed even more in the DS9 stuff but I'm not as familiar with that. Like I think TNG did a decent job adding some nuance to most of the other alien races they encounter.
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Jun 5, 2019 16:39
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Maneck posted:Was that the one with a stage that depicted an African village? I remember the uproar and thinking that was dangerous territory for game developers and their overwhelmingly white/SE asian staff. Never played it though. Yup. RE4 worked well with a "somewhere in Spain" peasant village leading to a full-on medieval castle, and they just took the idea to "somewhere in West Africa" without thinking about how the reception would change.
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Jun 5, 2019 16:40
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alansmithee posted:Not to go all star trek talk (and I only bring this up cause I recently rewatched a bunch of TNG), but a bunch of the later episodes kinda show Worf as out of touch with how things go and that the Klingon empire isn't really all about honor or whatever and how he keeps being disillusioned because of that. I believe that's stressed even more in the DS9 stuff but I'm not as familiar with that. Like I think TNG did a decent job adding some nuance to most of the other alien races they encounter. It certainly took DS9 to not be utterly awful about the Ferengi. Still not super great, mind, but less awful.
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Jun 5, 2019 16:52
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Lemniscate Blue posted:It certainly took DS9 to not be utterly awful about the Ferengi. On the other hand, DS9 also brought us fuckin' Profit and Lace, so it was at best a mixed bag the whole way through.
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Jun 6, 2019 01:40
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Maneck posted:Was that the one with a stage that depicted an African village? I remember the uproar and thinking that was dangerous territory for game developers and their overwhelmingly white/SE asian staff. Never played it though. Depicted an African village makes it seem kind of low key, it's literally a village of tribal zombies using leather and wood shields, giant masks and grass skirts who throw spears at you. When I first played it I thought people were exaggerating since the first level shows a city with both black, white and a surprising amount of vaguely light brown zombies attack you but then I got to that part and, yeah. The best view I can think of is that they didn't think it was racist since, again, they had a game in Spain where the locals have a literal castle filled with faux-Gregorian monks but man was it not a good look. Don Gato fucked around with this message at 07:14 on Jun 6, 2019 |
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Jun 6, 2019 03:11
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I was watching as my friend completed that part. Dropped the controller and screamed at the TV, "WE JUST LITERALLY ROLLED INTO THEIR HOME, KILLED THEM, AND TOOK EVERYTHING OF VALUE THEY OWNED"  (don't forget the treasure things you take from shrines/shelves)
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Jun 6, 2019 04:56
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Don Gato posted:Depicted a black village makes it seem kind of low key, it's literally a village of tribal zombies using leather and wood shields, giant masks and grass skirts who throw spears at you. When I first played it I thought people were exaggerating since the first level shows a city with both black, white and a surprising amount of vaguely light brown zombies attack you but then I got to that part and, yeah. The best view I can think of is that they didn't think it was racist since, again, they had a game in Spain where the locals have a literal castle filled with faux-Gregorian monks but man was it not a good look. Yeah, after N'Gai Croal's criticism of its imagery just based on trailers and previews, a friend and I got to the village, and were like "holy poo poo, imagine what he would have thought if he'd gotten to play the actual game".
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Jun 6, 2019 07:17
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The Wesker fight at the end was great but I'm not sure if it made up for like uh. Everything else.
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Jun 7, 2019 06:19
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The RE5 thing was an interesting example of what was essentially tone-deafness on behalf of the developers, not seeing how the context between gross spaniards and zombie africans can be perceived as really very different. I can't see any maliciousness in the portrayal its more that the anglosphere is a post colonial nightmare factory. (I'm operating off the assumption that the devs were Japanese, who have their own colonial past.) I've been playing Gloomhaven, and I'm looking at the narrative thrust of the campaign, which I guess I'm going to have to spoiler for the sake of not being a jerk. So spoilers for Gloomhaven follow - town records book stuff. The quick version is this: You open the town records book and you get a brief history of the town of gloomhaven, gloomhavens currently under military (seems to parallel feudal) rule with the rest of the world turning towards mercantile rule, which is seen as the march of progress. Obviously, mercantilism in real life was brutal, colonial and exploitative and laid the foundations of the loving mess we find ourselves in now. I'm not finished the campaign so I don't know what decision making we have a head of us, but I don't really like the way its going. This is a fantasy world with magic and poo poo, I think you know proof of the supernatural would take the shine off of wealth acquisition. Anyway I don't know if its been written with a critical view of history in mind or if the author is just an unreconstructed shitlord. Your options seem to be Militaristic (fash) or mercantilism (proto-capitalist shitlordery) Anyway! Keep capitalism out of my fantasy!
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Jun 7, 2019 11:49
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Southpaugh posted:The RE5 thing was an interesting example of what was essentially tone-deafness on behalf of the developers, not seeing how the context between gross spaniards and zombie africans can be perceived as really very different. I can't see any maliciousness in the portrayal its more that the anglosphere is a post colonial nightmare factory. (I'm operating off the assumption that the devs were Japanese, who have their own colonial past.) poilers for Gloomhaven That's not quite how it's actually portrayed when it happens. You achieve "mercantile rule" by causing an undead invasion of the city to murder the military, led by a woman who's previous actions were to send you to murder a bunch of Inox, including their children, in their homes and steal and murder from a Vermling diamond mine. Jekserah is not painted as good Piell fucked around with this message at 12:06 on Jun 7, 2019 |
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Jun 7, 2019 12:03
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Piell posted:poilers for Gloomhaven That's not quite how it's actually portrayed when it happens. You achieve "mercantile rule" by causing an undead invasion of the city to murder the military, led by a woman who's previous actions were to send you to murder a bunch of Inox, including their children, in their homes and steal and murder from a Vermling diamond mine. Jekserah is not painted as good Ahhhhh we didn't do that - we wasted her, I was thinking that the kind of rule gloomhaven winds up under would be decided at a higher prosperity level. Presumably for going forward in the expansions or whatever.
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Jun 7, 2019 12:29
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Don Gato posted:Depicted an African village makes it seem kind of low key, it's literally a village of tribal zombies using leather and wood shields, giant masks and grass skirts who throw spears at you. When I first played it I thought people were exaggerating since the first level shows a city with both black, white and a surprising amount of vaguely light brown zombies attack you but then I got to that part and, yeah. The best view I can think of is that they didn't think it was racist since, again, they had a game in Spain where the locals have a literal castle filled with faux-Gregorian monks but man was it not a good look. I always remember that there's a text file in that level where they write how the virus makes people regress back to the ways of their ancestors. I wasn't very woke at the time but i distinctly remember even then thinking "drat that's loving racist" and it left an impression.
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Jun 7, 2019 12:36
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Southpaugh posted:Ahhhhh we didn't do that - we wasted her, I was thinking that the kind of rule gloomhaven winds up under would be decided at a higher prosperity level. Presumably for going forward in the expansions or whatever.
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Jun 7, 2019 13:13
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RagnarokAngel posted:I always remember that there's a text file in that level where they write how the virus makes people regress back to the ways of their ancestors. It's not quite that clear, but here's the series of files in question.
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Jun 7, 2019 15:08
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Don Gato posted:Depicted an African village makes it seem kind of low key, it's literally a village of tribal zombies using leather and wood shields, giant masks and grass skirts who throw spears at you. You know, I'd like to do some Colonial era wargaming someday, specifically the Zulu War. I like that sort of asymmetrical scenario, brave numbers vs. firepower. But even though I'd be rooting for the Zulus, I'm afraid there are too many negative connotations there to do it.
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Jun 7, 2019 17:12
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Cessna posted:You know, I'd like to do some Colonial era wargaming someday, specifically the Zulu War. I like that sort of asymmetrical scenario, brave numbers vs. firepower. Just blast Jaluka's "Impi" constantly during the game.
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Jun 7, 2019 18:07
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Southpaugh posted:The RE5 thing was an interesting example of what was essentially tone-deafness on behalf of the developers, not seeing how the context between gross spaniards and zombie africans can be perceived as really very different. I can't see any maliciousness in the portrayal its more that the anglosphere is a post colonial nightmare factory. (I'm operating off the assumption that the devs were Japanese, who have their own colonial past.) I didn't love Gloomhaven's story, but it's due to excessive grimdark rather than any particular apparent dedication to shitlording. As mentioned, the mercantile rule isn't any better than the military rule, probably worse. My major lack of engagement with it was that it felt like you could only pick what kind of miserable situation held, which made it hard for me to care much, but the game didn't present any of these miserable situations as good.
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Jun 7, 2019 21:46
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I haven't played Gloomhaven and don't want to be spoiled - is there a sanitized version of whatever is going on here?
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Jun 7, 2019 23:36
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I know that there have been a lot of discussions about the impact of misogyny within gaming communities and how to best eliminate it. Today the Washington Post released an article about an attack on a Yoga studio in Florida by an Incel who had a history of assaulting and attacking women, and how white supremacists and fascist groups utilize misogyny as an easy way to recruit new members. To me it reinforces just how critical it is to ensure that gaming communities are welcome and inclusive, and that the kind of behavior that enables misogyny be completely excised.
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Jun 8, 2019 00:17
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moths posted:I haven't played Gloomhaven and don't want to be spoiled - is there a sanitized version of whatever is going on here? Basically, it turns out Gloomhaven also thinks capitalism is bad
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Jun 8, 2019 00:30
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moths posted:I haven't played Gloomhaven and don't want to be spoiled - is there a sanitized version of whatever is going on here? Gonna spoiler it just to be safe, in case someone wants no info at all. All the specifics I'll write are things spoiled by components in the box that aren't sealed (reading the text on some of the stickers you can put on the board) so you should be fine if you don't mind spoilers on that level. No spoilers within about how to accomplish any of these things in the game or any of that. Gloomhaven has some branching paths where you can influence who leads the city. One option is military rule (feudal more than fascist), another rule by merchants. OP was concerned one or both of these might be glorified in a problematic way. I said that my impression was that it treated both of them as bad things.
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Jun 8, 2019 00:31
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Now, to create the People's Glorious Revolutionary Gloomhaven Campaign.
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Jun 8, 2019 01:02
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dwarf74 posted:Now, to create the People's Glorious Revolutionary Gloomhaven Campaign. It's all oozes.
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Jun 8, 2019 06:14
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So, I know this was a while back in the thread, but in regards to the Lancer diversity statement: The gently caress up with that wasn't so much that they didn't know the right word, the gently caress up was that it suggested they hadn't checked with anyone in that community first. If you hosed up a term like that in a casual conversation, most people aren't going to flip their poo poo at you. Generally, you're just going to get "Yeah, that term isn't really used anymore. You can google why if you like, but please just say transgender instead." But this was an official statement for their game, and the standards should be higher. Partly from professionalism; you try to make sure you don't have typos in your published work, so make sure you're getting the even more important stuff right. Someone said they have a very diverse discord. There's no reason they couldn't have asked in there, "Hey, we've got a diversity statement we're including in the game. Can we get some eyes on it so we can make sure it's cool?" When you have a group that's often frustrated with not being listened to, it's very important to stop and actually listen to them. I don't think the Lancer guys are bad people, and it speaks well that they've apologized and fixed it. But publishers (and I know there are a fair number of people here who make elfgames) need to make sure they're taking the extra steps. It's frankly easy to get this stuff right if you take the time to do so. My point is that it's not enough just to try to speak to minorities. It's important to actually reach out and ask them about these issues. You don't need to know every nuance of LGBT+, PoC, or feminist issues, you just have to be willing to ask and listen. The resources are there to do better, and there's less excuse all the time to get it wrong.
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Jun 8, 2019 17:35
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JackMann posted:So, I know this was a while back in the thread, but in regards to the Lancer diversity statement: Wasn't this a draft copy that they circulated, got feedback on and will be changing before it goes to print?
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Jun 8, 2019 18:28
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NovemberMike posted:Wasn't this a draft copy that they circulated, got feedback on and will be changing before it goes to print? No, it's the current beta. Which they are changing before it goes to print but was a wide release to their kickstarter backers and their itch.io. Until the print version is done it is the Lancer everyone is playing. JackMann's point is valid, they clearly didn't ask any trans folks about it and that's something that needs to be addressed by publishers (including self-) more widely and actively, rather than only after there's some kind of public outcry.
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Jun 8, 2019 18:33
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I dunno to what extent this is apropos to the thread topic, but someone wrote up a good blog post about torture and why it should not work as an information-gathering tool in Dungeons & Dragons on both a practical and moral level.
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