|
Noshtane posted:It must be absolutely WILD for the Venezuelan goons to read posts by well fed, well educated and generally well off Americans, explaining to them that the hardships they experienced, the starvation and oppression they suffered or are still suffering at the hands of Maduro and his cronies isn't that bad and that they should accept the current situation because any change might bring the big bad wolf to their door. I'm not so sure about the "well-educated" part. Edit: Honestly, it looks more and more like Donnie and his coterie of fools are just saber rattling to hear the noise. If Donnie and Maduro sat down, I bet Donnie would love the guy. I mean christ, look at his weird relationship with Kim Jong Un.
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2019 15:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 17:17 |
|
|
Noshtane posted:It must be absolutely WILD for the Venezuelan goons to read posts by well fed, well educated and generally well off Americans, explaining to them that the hardships they experienced, the starvation and oppression they suffered or are still suffering at the hands of Maduro and his cronies isn't that bad and that they should accept the current situation because any change might bring the big bad wolf to their door. oh, there's definitely a set of changes that wouldn't. for example, the country currently attempting to starve Venezuelans out of hunger could lift its sanctions. we've got more food than we know what to do with, and could end their suffering on a whim. you could even make the argument it would actively help us! we're looking at a situation where despite massive flooding across our agricultural regions it may not make financial sense for a lot of our farmers to even plant next year. but instead we have sent someone who has longer canines than you'd expect, walks on all fours, has fur matted with the blood of his last half-dozen kills, and is howling loudly about how the destroyed corpses left in his wake are Triumphs of Democracy.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2019 16:05
|
|
|
Unoriginal Name posted:Your contention is that military occupation will..relieve suffering and make things better? Mine was "getting rid of Maduro". A concept a rather puzzling segment of presumably US-based posters seem dead-set against by *any* means.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2019 16:09
|
|
|
dirty lousy tramp posted:yours is dumber cause you're actively inviting more suffering but cloaking it in "well we can't be one hundred percent sure that the same thing will happen that I admit happens every single time" I am not in that rather curious group of posters *demanding* regime change only occur at US bayonet-point. Clearly, regime change has happened other ways.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2019 16:14
|
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:oh, there's definitely a set of changes that wouldn't. for example, the country currently attempting to starve Venezuelans out of hunger could lift its sanctions. we've got more food than we know what to do with, and could end their suffering on a whim. you could even make the argument it would actively help us! we're looking at a situation where despite massive flooding across our agricultural regions it may not make financial sense for a lot of our farmers to even plant next year. So your advice to the people of Venezuela is to sit still and continue be slowly starved to death by a kleptocratic dictator who is busy selling off anything that isn't nailed down to imperialistic interests in China and Russia? Because I didn't read anything in your post that didn't boil down to anything but 'USA Bad!'
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2019 16:17
|
|
|
Noshtane posted:So your advice to the people of Venezuela is to sit still and continue be slowly starved to death by a kleptocratic dictator who is busy selling off anything that isn't nailed down to imperialistic interests in China and Russia? USA worse
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2019 16:28
|
|
|
Noshtane posted:So your advice to the people of Venezuela is to sit still and continue be slowly starved to death by a kleptocratic dictator who is busy selling off anything that isn't nailed down to imperialistic interests in China and Russia? oh, the people of Venezuela both can and should try to change matters. i'm on record in this thread as saying a world where the colectivos turn around and toss Maduro out on his rear end is a good one. I don't personally put any money on it happening, as the stance of the long-toothed gent mentioned above on latin american left wingers having a voice in their government is to write down the names of their children while muttering "that's a sledgehammerin'" and maduro has done a pretty good job of keeping them onside thus far, but hope springs eternal.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2019 16:50
|
|
|
The worst part is that whenever they're not constantly pivoting back to USA bad, the proposals they gingerly bring are all things that were attempted and had already been shot down by Maduro.Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:oh, the people of Venezuela both can and should try to change matters. i'm on record in this thread as saying a world where the colectivos turn around and toss Maduro out on his rear end is a good one. You actually believe the government funded and armed terrorists are going to overthrow them you daft oval office? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2019 16:51
|
|
|
Noshtane posted:It must be absolutely WILD for the Venezuelan goons to read posts by well fed, well educated and generally well off Americans, explaining to them that the hardships they experienced, the starvation and oppression they suffered or are still suffering at the hands of Maduro and his cronies isn't that bad and that they should accept the current situation because any change might bring the big bad wolf to their door. Its pretty easy for well-fed, safe from violence white posters in north america and europe to talk about how 'everything is just fine" in VZ and "don't rock the boat". Based on everything I've read in this book about communism I'm sure everyone is doing A-OK!
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2019 17:55
|
|
|
Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:oh, the people of Venezuela both can and should try to change matters. i'm on record in this thread as saying a world where the colectivos turn around and toss Maduro out on his rear end is a good one. Oh, you think that it's the well being of the Venezuelan children that motivates the Colectivos to continue brutalizing unarmed protesters, traffic drugs and extort protection money from what business still exist? Cute.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2019 17:55
|
|
|
Noshtane posted:So your advice to the people of Venezuela is to sit still and continue be slowly starved to death by a kleptocratic dictator who is busy selling off anything that isn't nailed down to imperialistic interests in China and Russia? US intervention is extremely bad, though. It's a pretty simple point.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2019 18:17
|
|
|
536 posted:Its pretty easy for well-fed, safe from violence white posters in north america and europe to talk about how 'everything is just fine" in VZ and "don't rock the boat". Based on everything I've read in this book about communism I'm sure everyone is doing A-OK! Yes, this is definitely a thing many people have said and continue to say.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2019 18:20
|
|
|
https://www.unhcr.org/news/press/2019/6/5cfa2a4a4/refugees-migrants-venezuela-top-4-million-unhcr-iom.htmlquote:The number of Venezuelans leaving their country has reached 4 million, UNHCR, the UN Refugee Agency, and IOM, the International Organization for Migration, announced today. Globally, Venezuelans are one of the single largest population groups displaced from their country. In the last seven months one million people left Venezuela. I wonder if another million will leave in the next seven? At this rate Venezuelan's neighbors are going to be overwhelmed, there's no way politicians won't be forced to try and curb Venezuelan arrivals. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-economy-idUSKCN1T823D I just linked this article because i liked the picture of someone measuring out the coffee beans they are using in place of money to buy basic goods, and Reuters isn't letting me link the image 
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2019 18:25
|
|
|
fnox posted:
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2019 18:25
|
|
|
I would never advocate this anywhere else but this specific thread would probably benefit from a rule saying there's an automatic three day probation for anyone who summarizes or paraphrases another person's argument instead of quoting it directly.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2019 18:27
|
|
|
Squalid posted:https://www.unhcr.org/news/press/2019/6/5cfa2a4a4/refugees-migrants-venezuela-top-4-million-unhcr-iom.html Probably a pretty troubling example of what a whole hell of a lot of countries are going to be experiencing in a few decades thanks to Global warming. Venezuela's long term agricultural prospects can't be very good. brugroffil fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Jun 8, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2019 18:27
|
|
|
brugroffil posted:Probably a pretty bad example of what a whole hell of a lot of countries are going to be experiencing in a few decades thanks to Global warming. Venezuela's long term agricultural prospects can't be very good. the future agricultural prospects would be a lot better if the Maduro government stopped killing Venezuelan agriculture today.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2019 18:32
|
|
|
brugroffil posted:Guaidó's plan was to have government funded and armed groups overthrow Maduro, no? You mean the military? The Venezuelan military has a duty to protect constitutional order, it's the same argument that Chavez used in 92. Requesting the people who routinely maim and murder people because the government told them so, to suddenly grow a conscience, I mean, it's not gonna happen. There's an intersect between the two of them that makes this even more unlikely. To be fair I've been shot at by both so I don't really trust either. I have a more distinct hatred for colectivos because of how regularly me and other UCV students came into confrontation with them, them being armed with police Glocks, us being armed with gently caress all and being guilty of nothing but just being students standing at the wrong place at the wrong time. Did everyone just forget that the way Chavez came to power was through a failed coup, on which hundreds died? The people in power are there because they tried, and failed, to subvert constitutional order. fnox fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Jun 8, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2019 19:04
|
|
|
fnox posted:You mean the military? The Venezuelan military has a duty to protect constitutional order, it's the same argument that Chavez used in 92. Requesting the people who routinely maim and murder people because the government told them so, to suddenly grow a conscience, I mean, it's not gonna happen. There's an intersect between the two of them that makes this even more unlikely. It happened again in 2002 and 2019, years hat are you talking about?
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2019 20:00
|
|
|
Fiend posted:It happened again in 2002 and 2019, years hat are you talking about? Neither are even remotely comparable to what Chavez did. To note, the 2002 coup was a civil coup backed by the military. The military quickly turned against it once they realized nobody had a loving clue and Carmona Estanga was gonna be president for no reason. To put the April 30 events in the same league as the 1992 coups is laughable. There were more violent days in 2016 and 2014.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2019 21:28
|
|
|
fnox posted:Neither are even remotely comparable to what Chavez did. To note, the 2002 coup was a civil coup backed by the military. The military quickly turned against it once they realized nobody had a loving clue and Carmona Estanga was gonna be president for no reason. yeah calling 2002 was a right wing military coup always rubs me a little bit the wrong way a lot of the legwork got done by a bona fide popular revolt the "what now" stage needed work though
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2019 21:33
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/RealAlexRubi/status/1137478346101678081 Oh hey look, Ramos was full of poo poo. His interview got finished when he straight up said 'oh so your revolution failed' and was already ending when he tried to own Maduro with a video.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2019 23:45
|
|
|
It's kinda rich that Alex Rubinstein, who has worked for Sputnik News, is worried about another reporter's credibility.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2019 00:18
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:It's kinda rich that Alex Rubinstein, who has worked for Sputnik News, is worried about another reporter's credibility. eh, or that the distinction of him lying is "Tried to show him the video and the interview got cut off" vs "Showed him the video and the interview cut off" because you can clearly see Ramos trying to get the tablet working as Maduro cuts off the interview and it doesn't really you know discredit the actual problem with what happened with that interview, which was Maduro detaining Ramos and his crew, seizing all the footage and deporting the Univision crew actually if you want to say that Ramos never showed him the footage, that kind of actually makes Maduro look even worse, because there's no real aggravating cause for any of what Maduro did then so what I'm saying is, good job sexpig by night for trackign this down
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2019 00:28
|
|
|
OJ MIST 2 THE DICK posted:eh, or that the distinction of him lying is "Tried to show him the video and the interview got cut off" vs "Showed him the video and the interview cut off" Man there has been so much poo poo happening at such high speed these days that I already forgot about that nasty little moment.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2019 00:37
|
|
|
Noshtane posted:It must be absolutely WILD for the Venezuelan goons to read posts by well fed, well educated and generally well off Americans, explaining to them that the hardships they experienced, the starvation and oppression they suffered or are still suffering at the hands of Maduro and his cronies isn't that bad and that they should accept the current situation because any change might bring the big bad wolf to their door. Literally no one here has argued that the Venezuelan people should accept the current state of affairs, or that their suffering “isn’t that bad.”
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2019 00:57
|
|
|
fnox posted:Neither are even remotely comparable to what Chavez did. To note, the 2002 coup was a civil coup backed by the military. The military quickly turned against it once they realized nobody had a loving clue and Carmona Estanga was gonna be president for no reason. The point you were trying to make was the military’s obligation to uphold the constitution. The military did uphold the constitution quote:The Venezuelan military has a duty to protect constitutional order, it's the same argument that Chavez used in 92. My point is they ARE.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2019 01:05
|
|
|
There's literally already death squads operating in Venezuela but apparently the metaphysical possibility of the wrong death squads forming in the future means we have to keep slobbing the knob of the guy actually sponsoring the correct Jacobin-approved death squads today. There really is no country more dystopian than Hypothetical Venezuela.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2019 01:07
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Literally no one here has argued that the Venezuelan people should accept the current state of affairs, or that their suffering “isn’t that bad.” Literally every socialist on this forum has argued for the past 15 years that the Venezuelan people should accept the current state of affairs, or that their suffering “isn’t that bad.”
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2019 01:09
|
|
|
M. Discordia posted:There's literally already death squads operating in Venezuela but apparently the metaphysical possibility of the wrong death squads forming in the future means we have to keep slobbing the knob of the guy actually sponsoring the correct Jacobin-approved death squads today. There really is no country more dystopian than Hypothetical Venezuela. I see a much lower chance of Maduro successfully carrying out a Guerra Sucia than whoever Abrams would put in power. M. Discordia posted:Literally every socialist on this forum has argued for the past 15 years that the Venezuelan people should accept the current state of affairs, or that their suffering “isn’t that bad.” That’s just completely false.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2019 01:10
|
|
|
Majorian posted:I see a much lower chance of Maduro successfully carrying out a Guerra Sucia than whoever Abrams would put in power. what if the MUD puts an interim president in power without the US imposing it and/or there are fair-ish elections that lead to a MUD or MUD-adjacent victory admittedly the odds of either of those things have dropped in the last couple months, but there are / were options for Maduro's displacement that aren't "Elliot Abrams Kills Everybody" At the moment it looks like Maduro and the PSUV are secure in their position. Venezuela is saved, and he will lead it into a new era of prosperity and justice.  The next scheduled presidential elections (assuming there isn't an urgent crisis brought on by foreign oppression) are in 2024, so we'll see how those go.
Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Jun 9, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2019 01:16
|
|
|
The idea that Deathsquads forming as a "possibility" is absolutely ludicrous. It's a total certainty especially with Abrams in control. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/06/el-salvador-iraq-police-squads-washington
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2019 01:18
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Literally no one here has argued that the Venezuelan people should accept the current state of affairs, or that their suffering “isn’t that bad.” Define 'here', because uninterrupted is a regular poster and there was that one guy who tried to use Google reviews to prove there wasn't any starvation in Venezuela.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2019 01:20
|
|
|
brugroffil posted:Yes, this is definitely a thing many people have said and continue to say. Yup, youve had a few people in the last few pages respond to actual Venezuelans and tell them either things arent really that bad or that they are assholes for wanting change.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2019 01:21
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:what if the MUD puts an interim president in power without the US imposing it and/or there are fair-ish elections that lead to a MUD or MUD-adjacent victory That’d be a better outcome, especially if the US didn’t immediately overthrow that leader or whatever. But no, I don’t think the odds are terribly high either. quote:At the moment it looks like Maduro and the PSUV are secure in their position. Venezuela is saved, and he will lead it into a new era of prosperity and justice. Nah, it’s a lovely outcome. It’s just less lovely than Pinochet 2.0.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2019 01:22
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:what if the MUD puts an interim president in power without the US imposing it and/or there are fair-ish elections that lead to a MUD or MUD-adjacent victory Is it just me, or does it seem like goons secretly think that Venezuelans are too naive and/or dumb to do something about their current crappy leadership without inviting a U.S.-led, Abrams-initiated regime change that effectively vassalizes the country? Goons are finger-wagging at fnox, essentially telling him he doesn't know what the gently caress is going on in his own country and that the well-fed liberal goons know better than he does. Hoping that Maduro eventually has a change of heart just to score ideological points against the U.S.'s capricious interventionist tendencies is a bit dumb and forcing Venezuelans to put up with Maduro as a "better option" versus the mere possibility of Uncle Sam's fuckery is equally dumb. Meanwhile, millions of Venezuelans who had the means to gtfo have done so. Voting with one's feet is the usual answer of a people who've gotten fed up with their current govt, but lack the power to do anything about it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2019 01:29
|
|
|
Majorian posted:That’d be a better outcome, especially if the US didn’t immediately overthrow that leader or whatever. But no, I don’t think the odds are terribly high either. just so we're clear, i was not sneering at you specifically about the apparent Maduro Wins Heck Yeah, i'm just a bit mad and a bit depressed about it and some of that comes out in snarky venting Balliver Shagnasty posted:Is it just me, or does it seem like goons secretly think that Venezuelans are too naive and/or dumb to do something about their current crappy leadership without inviting a U.S.-led, Abrams-initiated regime change that effectively vassalizes the country? Goons are finger-wagging at fnox, essentially telling him he doesn't know what the gently caress is going on in his own country and that the well-fed liberal goons know better than he does. Hoping that Maduro eventually has a change of heart just to score ideological points against the U.S.'s capricious interventionist tendencies is a bit dumb and forcing Venezuelans to put up with Maduro as a "better option" versus the mere possibility of Uncle Sam's fuckery is equally dumb. I don't think enough agency is being ascribed to the Venezuelan opposition. I think Guaido's a moderately more interesting shithead than just being a mindless puppet of Mr Abrams.  And got there through a more interesting and complicated sequence of events, that Probably Matter for the future of the Venezuelan opposition if it, you know, remains a thing.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2019 01:34
|
|
|
M. Discordia posted:Literally every socialist on this forum has argued for the past 15 years that the Venezuelan people should accept the current state of affairs, or that their suffering “isn’t that bad.” the situation was somewhat different fifteen years ago - there's certainly been a shift in perception over venezuela as the situation has deteriorated, but i think that's actually fairly reasonable from an outside view. certainly the case for a military coup was not there in 2004 part of the problem is also something that can be seen in discussions about syria - assad is an awful murderer, but the main opposition was so much worse that he actually looks acceptable by comparison, to some this is to some extent by design - assad killed off less horrid groups first, and my guess is that the PSUV has used various tricks to shape their opposition, but that opposition has also systematically poo poo the bed. a changing of the guard is obviously necessary at this point, but how it should happen and who should take over are still valid questions: i would caution against any notion that US military intervention would make anything better, for instance, because US military interventions have a track record of taking bad situations and somehow making them worse
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2019 01:35
|
|
|
M. Discordia posted:There's literally already death squads operating in Venezuela but apparently the metaphysical possibility of the wrong death squads forming in the future means we have to keep slobbing the knob of the guy actually sponsoring the correct Jacobin-approved death squads today. There really is no country more dystopian than Hypothetical Venezuela. this does an excellent job of summing up why Guaido's coup attempt failed, tbh. grant every particular of the opposition's argument. the colectivos are a gang of murderous thugs accountable to noone and/or Maduro directly depending on which is most convenient. the nation proudly proclaiming its goal was to starve and darken venezuela until such time as it was forced to its knees actually had nothing to do with starving or darkening Venezuela- it's all on Maduro. Maduro is an imbecilic bus driver who becomes Lex Luthor only when required to hush up a mass killing or when he spies an unguarded empanada. the country is a catspaw of imperial Cuban ambitions, dancing to the tune of puppetmasters in Havana. Bolsonaro genuinely wants the best for his Venezuelan neighbors. half the military will honestly, we pinky swear, rise up against Maduro this time, they're just waiting for someone to lead them. grant every single one of those things as true. you are still left with the question "what about this makes the 'murder all military-aged males if the population gets restive' guy an improvement?" Our Death Squads Will Be A Lateral Move does not get people in the streets for you.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2019 01:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 17:17 |
|
|
Balliver Shagnasty posted:Is it just me, or does it seem like goons secretly think that Venezuelans are too naive and/or dumb to do something about their current crappy leadership without inviting a U.S.-led, Abrams-initiated regime change that effectively vassalizes the country? Goons are finger-wagging at fnox, essentially telling him he doesn't know what the gently caress is going on in his own country and that the well-fed liberal goons know better than he does. Hoping that Maduro eventually has a change of heart just to score ideological points against the U.S.'s capricious interventionist tendencies is a bit dumb and forcing Venezuelans to put up with Maduro as a "better option" versus the mere possibility of Uncle Sam's fuckery is equally dumb. The fact that fnox has quite explicitly said that he doesn’t think a right-wing US-backed regime could be any worse than the status quo, and that people who are bringing up things that have historically happened are engaging in fantasies, suggests that no, he does not actually have the best handle on things.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2019 01:39
|
|