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nielsm posted:You're talking as if Overwatch is basically dead already. Is it? I haven't been following it at all. No it got backed by blizzard and has a healthy competitive scene. Skimmed lots of the "talent" playing/casting wise. I never really got into it myself. Despite it's aesthtic tf2 is a death matching game kind of like quake. OW way more like a moba or some thing. Jippa fucked around with this message at 09:43 on Jun 9, 2019 |
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Jun 9, 2019 08:49
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nielsm posted:You're talking as if Overwatch is basically dead already. Is it? I haven't been following it at all. Apparently Blizzard is making an Overwatch 2.
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Jun 9, 2019 09:39
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Reiley posted:No one who has ever been moonshot by the Sandman didn't deserve it. Agreed, it's not like it was something that was even all that easy to do with the size of most maps. ChaseSP posted:Sandman Guillotine was really bullshit but also really drat satisfying getting it at long range. I never seemed to quite pull the combo off, I dunno if it's my brain telling me they had different archs so trying to compensate would miss, or they did have different archs and I hadn't figured it out yet. I also never really hated getting stunned or then taken out by a guillotine, can't really stay mad at someone when the ragdoll from it was always so insane. Since they changed the cleaver though I don't think I've ever seen anyone use it, it's easier and more effective to have a gun equipped and if you wanna make someone bleed just run up and hit them with the boston basher.
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Jun 9, 2019 10:27
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Didn’t they nerf the Sandman before people started pairing it with guillotine?
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Jun 9, 2019 13:01
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QwertySanchez posted:Agreed, it's not like it was something that was even all that easy to do with the size of most maps. They did have different arcs, IIRC.
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Jun 9, 2019 13:12
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nielsm posted:You're talking as if Overwatch is basically dead already. Is it? I haven't been following it at all. people still play it and it's still kind of fun if you just play casual and don't give a poo poo but the changes that have been made over the past couple of years have cemented the most boring comp meta imaginable which cannot be shaken off because it is the only logical conclusion of the actual design philosophy behind the game
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Jun 9, 2019 13:41
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cock hero flux posted:people still play it and it's still kind of fun if you just play casual and don't give a poo poo but the changes that have been made over the past couple of years have cemented the most boring comp meta imaginable which cannot be shaken off because it is the only logical conclusion of the actual design philosophy behind the game What's that meta and design philosophy about?
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Jun 9, 2019 13:55
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Sininu posted:What's that meta and design philosophy about? The current meta is 3 tanks 3 healers, lots of health and sustain, no one dies until ults are used. It’s typically Reinhardt, Zara, DVA, Brigette, Lucia, Zen. There are variations where DVA is switched with Sombra or Zen with Ana. Games are slow until a clean fight is one, then fights snowball with ult advantage. My personal belief is that if tanks weren’t a thing, and cc wasn’t a thing that it is, OW could be better than TF2, but dumping a ton of resources in one character then as effective health in the 1000 range can be pretty annoying. Especially when they can be stack healed to full in two seconds.
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Jun 9, 2019 14:01
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Araxxor posted:Apparently Blizzard is making an Overwatch 2. they are but it's pve
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Jun 9, 2019 14:09
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Sininu posted:What's that meta and design philosophy about? every new character is either a tank with 500 or so HP and a bunch of defensive abilities, a combat healer who can pump out damage while using passive skills that can easily heal their entire team at once, or a barely-functional offense character with minimal health who has either the ability to do okay damage or the ability to stay alive for more than five seconds (but never both) also literally a quarter of the cast have abilities that inflict either stuns or disabling debuffs
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Jun 9, 2019 14:13
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Sininu posted:What's that meta and design philosophy about? the meta strat is called GOATS, after the pro team that invented it and in doing so ruined comp overwatch forever 3 tanks, 3 supports. DPS, which makes up over half the cast and is also the category that the average player actually wants to play, is completely ignored. Other than, if the team wants to be ballsy, occasionally running a sneaky Sombra who exists purely to hack shields, DPS is not played. The design philosophy behind Overwatch essentially hinged on the concept that people don't like being one-shot or killed before they have a chance to react, and thus doing so should not really be possible. To that end, the game was balanced such that, in a DPS vs. DPS confrontation, it takes a while for one to kill the other(as opposed to say, Siege, where you can sometimes die on literally the frame after an enemy spots you). This was done by making sure damage output was low relative to other games of its genre. The problem with this: Tanks and Supports exist, who have enormous HP pools/damage mitigation/barriers, etc. By keeping DPS damage output and especially burst damage low, the result was that 2 DPSes could not eat through the EHP of a Tank/Support combo in a reasonable timeframe. Combine this with the fact that some Tanks and Supports have comparable damage output to DPSes but also big HP and/or healing and the entire DPS roster became obsolete. And will stay there, forever, because it is impossible to drag them out without compromising that design philosophy. A team will gain more effectiveness by having another Tank/Support combo than they would by having 2 DPSes every time, and the only way to fix this would be to either dramatically buff their damage output or nerf everyone's HP, both of which would result in squishy characters dying fast and thus break the underlying balance goal of the design team.
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Jun 9, 2019 14:17
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basically imagine if the tf2 6s meta was 3 heavies, 3 medics, heavies had 1200 hp, ubercharge was on a 10 second cooldown, and backstab and headshot maxed out at 100 damage
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Jun 9, 2019 14:20
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So what you're saying is, Overwatch was designed by scrubs who were mad that scouts kept killing them.
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Jun 9, 2019 14:23
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Dabir posted:So what you're saying is, Overwatch was designed by scrubs who were mad that scouts kept killing them. overwatch was balanced for low-mid level casual play where people don't know how to avoid that sort of thing and are just playing whatever they feel like. which is a perfectly fine thing to do, mind you, it's just that they also decided to include a comp mode and push for a pro-scene, and the result is a dumpster so hot that the garbage atoms are beginning to fuse into previously theoretical super-heavy trash elements
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Jun 9, 2019 14:27
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Dabir posted:So what you're saying is, Overwatch was designed by scrubs who were mad that scouts kept killing them. OW didn't have a kill feed until very late into its beta, by design
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Jun 9, 2019 14:30
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Countblanc posted:OW didn't have a kill feed until very late into its beta, by design it also does not have a scoreboard or any way to measure how well you're doing against the rest of your team other than by medals(where you can only see your own medal) this was theoretically supposed to prevent toxicity and poo poo-talking based on scoreboard position but in practice actually results in enormous levels of turbo poo poo-talk where people constantly scream at each other about how poo poo they are and accuse each other of lying about what medal they actually have in enormously petty bullshit arguments which would not exist if there were a scoreboard and people could see in half a second whether someone is actually doing well or not like a standard overwatch argument that you will hear over the voice chat in at least half of comp matches is "WOW X IS PLAYING LIKE TOTAL poo poo, GO BACK TO (RANK BELOW THIS ONE), REPORT X" "gently caress YOU Y ACTUALLY I HAVE LIKE THREE GOLD MEDALS, YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS BAD" "NUH UH I HAVE ALL THE GOLD MEDALS SO YOU'RE LYING" *inarticulate screeching* *torrent of racial slurs* whereas in games with scoreboards they tend to get resolved rather quickly because you can just go "eh they're actually doing fine" or "yeah, I guess they could be doing better" and settle the whole thing in 5 seconds because it's impossible to lie about it
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Jun 9, 2019 14:38
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Jippa posted:OW way more like a moba or some thing. finally someone agrees with me
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Jun 9, 2019 16:22
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GOATS make me miss the Dive meta. (Think 1 heavy, 1 medic and 4 scouts to gently caress up the other teams medic)
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Jun 9, 2019 16:37
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Zedd posted:GOATS make me miss the Dive meta. (Think 1 heavy, 1 medic and 4 scouts to gently caress up the other teams medic) nah because dive meta wasn't DPSes, it was just fast tanks think 1 heavy and then 3 more heavies with jetpacks, and then 2 medics
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Jun 9, 2019 16:43
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cock hero flux posted:overwatch was balanced for low-mid level casual play where people don't know how to avoid that sort of thing and are just playing whatever they feel like. which is a perfectly fine thing to do, mind you, it's just that they also decided to include a comp mode and push for a pro-scene, and the result is a dumpster so hot that the garbage atoms are beginning to fuse into previously theoretical super-heavy trash elements The secret is to just never play comp and just don't pay attention to OWL. It's a really fun game, I get tons of enjoyment out of it and it still seems really healthy to me. I play exclusively QP and arcade(for those sweet sweet LOOT BOXES) and never have to wait long than 20s to find a game.
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Jun 9, 2019 16:47
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YOURFRIEND posted:The secret is to just never play comp and just don't pay attention to OWL. It's a really fun game, I get tons of enjoyment out of it and it still seems really healthy to me. I play exclusively QP and arcade(for those sweet sweet LOOT BOXES) and never have to wait long than 20s to find a game. in my own opinion the changes that have been made and the design goals behind them have dragged down casual plenty as well, because despite the fact that it's not an intolerable slog of giant energy shields slowly grinding away at each other like comp the truths that put comp into the terrible state it's in now still apply: DPS have bad damage output and struggle to deal with tank EHP pools and playing them isn't much fun when it feels like you're firing a nerf gun into an oncoming car. the fact that people don't care as much and don't insist on playing in the incredibly boring optimal way doesn't change the fact that more than half the hero pool just isn't capable of doing much. You can pick up and play a DPS and fight some other people picking up and playing DPS, but ultimately it feels as though what you're doing has no impact on the course of the match, and that that's most dictated by whoever plays Tanks and Supports. You can have some fun but I definitely see that as having declined over time as well.
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Jun 9, 2019 16:56
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For me the 6v6 matchmaking format is just awful for casual play compared to 12v12 drop in/drop out servers, regardless of the problems with game balance and design. But yeah, TF2 really nailed the pacing and lethality of combat in a way that Overwatch never really did.
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Jun 9, 2019 17:30
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There's some serious wizardry in the pace and scale of TF2. Somehow you can simultaneously have one or two players on a team absolutely carry a round, and yet having a few players on that same team loving around throwing sandwiches at each other doesn't drag the entire team down. Contrast that to OW, where if one player out of your six is loving around you just sorta lose, and a single player really can't carry all that hard.
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Jun 9, 2019 17:59
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ptroll posted:There's some serious wizardry in the pace and scale of TF2. Somehow you can simultaneously have one or two players on a team absolutely carry a round, and yet having a few players on that same team loving around throwing sandwiches at each other doesn't drag the entire team down. It's weird because OW tends to be more mechanically demanding. In TF2 a really good scout or soldier isn't really going to kill you faster than an okay scout or soldier. In OW DPS vs DPS fights there's more of a gulf in execution, but you can't solo a tank just by aiming really well. Which is probably part of the toxicity.
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Jun 9, 2019 18:47
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I disagree. Hit boxes in OW are huge and everyone moves relatively slow. Outside a few hero’s weapons are hitscan or auto-aim. I’d say only Genji and Tracer are extremely mechanical extensive. It’s really more of a first person MOBA than a shooter as far as what skills are needed.
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Jun 9, 2019 18:58
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When OW first came out I thought it was the bee's knees but after a month I got real sick of it and I will admit I was wrong back then. A shooter that de-emphasizes shooting the other guy dead can not be a good game.
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Jun 9, 2019 20:22
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Straight White Shark posted:a really good scout or soldier isn't really going to kill you faster than an okay scout or soldier. demonstrably and absolutely false
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Jun 9, 2019 20:23
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also everyday i wake up i thank my picture of cristina fernandez de kirchner that i never felt the need to play the miserable garbage that is overwatch
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Jun 9, 2019 20:24
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Oxygenpoisoning posted:I disagree. Hit boxes in OW are huge and everyone moves relatively slow. Crit boxes are still way smaller than TF2 hitboxes, and there's way less falloff so you can't just rely on point blank shots as much as TF2.
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Jun 9, 2019 21:08
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that TF2 doesn't have its own mechanical demands, but they don't have the same direct impact on time to kill that they do in OW.
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Jun 9, 2019 21:17
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Straight White Shark posted:Crit boxes are still way smaller than TF2 hitboxes, and there's way less falloff so you can't just rely on point blank shots as much as TF2. That’s not true either. Head hitboxes in TF2 are smaller than the average one in OW. Just because only sniper and spy can hit critical damage headshots doesn’t somehow mean it’s a difficult thing to do in OW. I’d argue the opposite, landing Mcree headshots seems a lot easier than landing with the ambassador, even on more mobile characters. Widow also seems easier than Sniper because the time between shots is substantially shorter.
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Jun 9, 2019 21:58
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All this talk as if there isn't only 4 actual good classes in TF2
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Jun 9, 2019 23:42
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:All this talk as if there isn't only 4 actual good classes in TF2 yeah Pyro, engineer, heavy, and pyro.
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Jun 9, 2019 23:52
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Jippa posted:No it got backed by blizzard and has a healthy competitive scene. it could not stand on its own two legs as a grassroots scene, because the game is just not made for competitive play Gravitas Shortfall posted:All this talk as if there isn't only 4 actual good classes in TF2
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Jun 10, 2019 00:19
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It's not really "mechanical demand", since I'd honestly say many of the TF2 characters require a lot more of that. It's more that because of the slow movement and high healthpools in OW, as well as the fact that guns have very little burst fire and abilities have enforced cooldowns, positioning both as an individual and as a team member matter a lot more. A solo character can't carry because you need focus fire to take anyone down except for the DPSes, who can typically be wiped out by a stiff breeze if they don't have both a tank and a support backing them up. In TF2, most of the offensive characters can quickly kill a few people in a row if they need to, and their mobility enhancements are either always on or have no cooldown as long as you can pay their cost. In Overwatch, even the "damage" heroes will usually blow more than half their clip just killing one DPS or healer, and their mobility skill is usually tied to a long cooldown. Soldier can rocket-jump in, gib two or three non-Heavies with well-placed rockets, and rocket-jump out. There's no one in the OW roster that's capable of anything comparable to that, and there's a lot more characters with Heavy-level healthpools too.
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Jun 10, 2019 00:24
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I don't know if it's me or not, but the most bizarre thing about OW's UI is that I swear I won't even notice I'm being shot from behind or the side until after I'm dead.
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Jun 10, 2019 00:33
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Main Paineframe posted:there's a lot more characters with Heavy-level healthpools too. Genuinely, I'd say it's easier to kill a heavy in TF2 than it is to kill a Zenyatta in Overwatch.
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Jun 10, 2019 02:28
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6cvIT8NCXg
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Jun 10, 2019 17:27
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Looks fun, but can't help wondering if that style of flamethrower would be better than what we've got now.
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Jun 10, 2019 17:43
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Over watch is a game where I feel like I can never kill enemy players because of tanks and supports, and I also feel like I get one shot constantly. Someone said earlier that OW'S design philosophy includes "a dps shouldn't be able to kill another dps before they have time to react" but like even ignoring widow and hanzo (sniper characters in multiplayer fps need to die), doomfist can kill any nontank in half a second (generally the punch+wall hit is a oneshot), McCree "technically" can't oneshot you but can stun you, then unload the entire clip of his gun with a single button press before your stun is over, a reaper behind your "technically" kills you in as many shots as a scout in that position can kill you, but he has 2.5x scout's fire rate so he'll definitely kill you before you've even figured out that you're being shot in the back, a mei thats gotten close to you will freeze you before you could conceivably get away, and then oneshot you with her altfire so it's slightly more fair in that you could theoretically 180 and snapshot her face if you're playing as a character that can oneshot her. Which uh, means you're a character that can oneshot another character. The lethality in overwatch is loving stupid, you're made out of paper unless there's a tank in front of you and a support behind you, in which case you're loving invincible. And if your whole team is tanks and supports, your whole team is loving invincible.
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