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Hindsight is 20/20 and I regret buying into Garfield’s sales pitch. Mans was clearly delusional in retrospect especially in that latest interview (conducted by my former coworker! Shoutouts to him!!!)
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Jun 9, 2019 09:32
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Kind of a weird nothing article, only like two actual sentences from Garfield and one is basically just a repeat of something he said before about how lootboxes totally aren't pay-to-win. But yeah, if Garfield's main takeaway from the Artifact trials and tribulations was that review bombing hurt the game enough to kill the playerbase in one month, and that the bad reviews were caused by a lack of dailies/weeklies, then he's just straight up insane.
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Jun 9, 2019 10:51
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That's because it's a summary of this: https://win.gg/news/1306 Somehow that got posted in a bunch of places, but not in here.
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Jun 9, 2019 11:00
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Im not sure what happened with artifact that made it so boring. I guess they had to stick to dota systems? Garfield can still design a fun game. Keyforge is great and really cheap to play.
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Jun 9, 2019 15:19
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Its also just mentally exhausting to play in a way that other tcgs arent. Like sure its a lot more complex than something like HS and Gwent but its not meaningfully more complex than mtg and mtg isnt a complete chore to play more than 3 times in a sitting.
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Jun 9, 2019 15:28
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The REAL Goobusters posted:Hindsight is 20/20 and I regret buying into Garfield’s sales pitch. Mans was clearly delusional in retrospect especially in that latest interview (conducted by my former coworker! Shoutouts to him!!!) shoulda listened to me man... adamarama posted:Im not sure what happened with artifact that made it so boring. I guess they had to stick to dota systems? Garfield can still design a fun game. Keyforge is great and really cheap to play. i thought that was it but supposedly garfield designed a game and realized it was dota-ish and went to valve or something.
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Jun 9, 2019 15:37
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adamarama posted:Im not sure what happened with artifact that made it so boring. I guess they had to stick to dota systems? Garfield can still design a fun game. Keyforge is great and really cheap to play. Really boring cards and it was basically unstreamable so even the diehards didn't have a reason to stick around.
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Jun 9, 2019 15:50
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Andrigaar posted:That's because it's a summary of this: https://win.gg/news/1306 I would’ve posted it if I still worked there lmao but nah. Also shoutout Lysander. At TI he and one other person in the closed beta or whatever told me this game was going to have no chance.
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Jun 9, 2019 16:04
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Yeah, I mean it was absolutely pay to win (pay to compete, if you really want to split hairs), all TCGs are, but the real problems were that it was too much work to play, the cards were boring, and there wasn't much progression in place to keep players engaged. Garfield got the last one right at least.
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Jun 9, 2019 16:19
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I think Garfield just needs to hold the L. I know he thinks the game is good since he tested it for years, but it clearly wasn’t and didn’t resonate with a public audience.
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Jun 9, 2019 16:21
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The REAL Goobusters posted:I think Garfield just needs to hold the L. I know he thinks the game is good since he tested it for years, but it clearly wasn’t and didn’t resonate with a public audience. Garfield is just really not on the same wavelength as 99% of humans. Have you ever tried to read the first edition Magic: The Gathering manual?
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Jun 9, 2019 16:25
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I still think the basic concept of a three lane TCG is fantastic. It just needed to strip back some of the pointless Dota-like complications (creeps, item store) and massively overhaul the cards. I still hope they rework the game into something good one day.
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Jun 9, 2019 16:29
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Groovelord Neato posted:shoulda listened to me man... Making games is a huge complicated ordeal, and I suspect the game Garfield approached valve with was likely very different than the end product. Garfield is a tabletop designer first and foremost. It's likely that the game started out as a physical card game. Based on his past games, I suspect that Garfield likes designing games based on an interesting basic concept and fleshing it out. With Artifact it likely started with the idea of having to manage multiple board states at once, and the need to distribute our resources between them. The idea of powerful cards determining what cards you can play in a lane was probably present since early on too, to help try to simplify needing to manage three board states at once. I bet it was this base game that Garfield approached Valve with - manage three boards, powerful cards determine what color cards you can play to those boards. It's likely that items, creeps, etc all got added later on, after it truly became a Dota game. I'm basing this all on my own experience designing both digital and tabletop games, including a card game, but I don't have any actual sources into Artifact specifically so I may be totally wrong. However it's guaranteed that any game will likely change significantly over the course of its design, so who the gently caress knows what the original game Garfield approached Valve with.
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Jun 9, 2019 17:07
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CodfishCartographer posted:Making games is a huge complicated ordeal, and I suspect the game Garfield approached valve with was likely very different than the end product. The artifact alpha and prototypes were shown off to Valve News YouTube guy or whatever and they were pretty close to what the game eventually was. Like the three lanes and all that poo poo was always a part of the game from the beginning.
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Jun 9, 2019 17:34
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I think designing a game from the ground up as "hardcore" is usually a mistake. They made a game that was complicated but did not feel particularly deep or rewarding.
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Jun 9, 2019 17:58
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The REAL Goobusters posted:I know he thinks the game is good since he tested it for years, but it clearly wasn’t and didn’t resonate with a public audience. Granted, at least for him, his reputation is probably the only thing worth trying to salvage from this whole mess, Valve is probably just gonna sweep this under the rug as soon as they can.
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Jun 9, 2019 18:22
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How many failures does it take for people to think maybe Richard Garfield got lucky. Like I'm not even convinced Magic is a good game what with the whole being mana screwed/starved thing.
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Jun 9, 2019 18:25
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think designing a game from the ground up as "hardcore" is usually a mistake. They made a game that was complicated but did not feel particularly deep or rewarding. see also: Wildstar.
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Jun 9, 2019 18:32
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Duck and Cover posted:How many failures does it take for people to think maybe Richard Garfield got lucky. Like I'm not even convinced Magic is a good game what with the whole being mana screwed/starved thing. Magic has problems that are easy to spot in retrospect but it also pretty much invented the genre so it's understandable it wouldn't be perfect. I think luck plays a big role in any mega-success like that but I don't think it was as major of a factor for Magic as it was for a lot of them, like, say, Minecraft, for example.
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Jun 9, 2019 18:34
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Duck and Cover posted:How many failures does it take for people to think maybe Richard Garfield got lucky. Like I'm not even convinced Magic is a good game what with the whole being mana screwed/starved thing. Let’s be honest, if Magic was a good game, every set wouldn’t have cards that fatally unbalance the game, or the cards that make the last fatally unbalancing cards useless. It was a fun idea, and the collectible aspect was novel, but the game itself is highly flawed.
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Jun 9, 2019 20:38
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Deadguy2322 posted:Let’s be honest, if Magic was a good game, every set wouldn’t have cards that fatally unbalance the game, or the cards that make the last fatally unbalancing cards useless. It was a fun idea, and the collectible aspect was novel, but the game itself is highly flawed. I don't really know as I don't really play magic. The thing he keeps getting hired. Isn't his track record terrible?
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Jun 9, 2019 20:46
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Deadguy2322 posted:Let’s be honest, if Magic was a good game, every set wouldn’t have cards that fatally unbalance the game, or the cards that make the last fatally unbalancing cards useless. It was a fun idea, and the collectible aspect was novel, but the game itself is highly flawed. Honestly, that's not an accurate description of Magic's design cycle. They have definitely made some mistakes over the last few years but there are reasons other than inertia that keep them on to top.
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Jun 9, 2019 21:22
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Duck and Cover posted:I don't really know as I don't really play magic. The thing he keeps getting hired. Isn't his track record terrible? hes made a ton of games, some good some bad. but overall his track record is pretty good
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Jun 9, 2019 21:28
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adamarama posted:Im not sure what happened with artifact that made it so boring. I guess they had to stick to dota systems? Garfield can still design a fun game. Keyforge is great and really cheap to play. I really thought it was mostly the cards themselves. I don't know if it was classic first set timidity or if they were trying to compensate for the complexity of the core mechanics, but a set full of "target creature gets +2 attack" cards with no expansions in sight got old fast. Duck and Cover posted:I don't really know as I don't really play magic. The thing he keeps getting hired. Isn't his track record terrible? I don't think so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Garfield I've only heard of about half of these, but even ignoring Magic, he's got a few celebrated hits here: RoboRally, V:TES, Netrunner (or at least the remake, which still had his name on the box), and KeyForge. I think his issue is that he's prolific and compulsively tries to go in new directions. Personally, I respect that more than if he just redesigned his first hit every few years like a lot of developers, even if it gives him a lower hit rate overall. edit: beaten
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Jun 9, 2019 21:29
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Garfield has come back to wotc to make some sets and those sets have been very well received. He designed the first Ravnica set and they've come back to it like 3-4 times now.
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Jun 9, 2019 21:34
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Avasculous posted:I really thought it was mostly the cards themselves. I don't know if it was classic first set timidity or if they were trying to compensate for the complexity of the core mechanics, but a set full of "target creature gets +2 attack" cards with no expansions in sight got old fast. They probably just rushed the game out ASAP, so the cards were generic stuff thrown together, there weren't many game modes/formats, and there wasn't a stream overlay or working tournament mode or whatever quality of life features people would want. If the game was a free-to-play beta, sure toss it out there, but you can't expect people to pay  plus whatever money for cards for a rushed product and stay happy.
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Jun 9, 2019 21:34
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babypolis posted:hes made a ton of games, some good some bad. but overall his track record is pretty good Oh okay guess it makes sense to keep hiring him then. Artifact is still totally better than Hearthstone.
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Jun 9, 2019 21:39
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the worst part is not adding the new heroes to dota.
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Jun 9, 2019 21:42
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Deadguy2322 posted:Let’s be honest, if Magic was a good game, every set wouldn’t have cards that fatally unbalance the game, or the cards that make the last fatally unbalancing cards useless. It was a fun idea, and the collectible aspect was novel, but the game itself is highly flawed. This is insanely inaccurate what cards are you even talking about, last few sets have maybe a handful that even made it to modern.
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Jun 9, 2019 21:42
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Honestly the problems with Artifact are so obvious that I wonder if all the "man we had NO idea people wouldn't like this!" isn't just a bullshit PR move and in reality they knew they were shipping a totally transparent cash grab, but thought people would stick to it anyways because people gobble up everything else they put out. I mean, to not plan a single tournament for the game's release week/month says a LOT about how well they were anticipating things going
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Jun 9, 2019 21:43
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Valve just feel like theyre completely out to lunch and have no idea how to build or interact with a community anymore.
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Jun 9, 2019 21:51
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socialsecurity posted:This is insanely inaccurate what cards are you even talking about, last few sets have maybe a handful that even made it to modern. This is kind of what this thread does, people are just here to walk poo poo wildly.
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Jun 9, 2019 22:05
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socialsecurity posted:This is insanely inaccurate what cards are you even talking about, last few sets have maybe a handful that even made it to modern. I played from retail launch to Ice Age, and my daughter got into it when she was about 10, around a decade ago. If it got away from the cycle of breakage, it must have been in between the periods I was paying attention to it.
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Jun 9, 2019 22:15
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:Honestly the problems with Artifact are so obvious that I wonder if all the "man we had NO idea people wouldn't like this!" isn't just a bullshit PR move and in reality they knew they were shipping a totally transparent cash grab, but thought people would stick to it anyways because people gobble up everything else they put out. I mean, to not plan a single tournament for the game's release week/month says a LOT about how well they were anticipating things going I doubt this, actually. The game peaked at ~60k users, who each bought in for $20. Assuming the whales and the huge number who spent 0 additional dollars averages out to $40 total/user, the total revenue for the game was around 2.5 million dollars. That's not much of a cash grab when Steam generates about 11 million dollars a day for Valve, and I would guess even the pretty minor damage to Valve's reputation/brand of their first new game in 7 years imploding was not worth it. The fact that they barely advertised the release does suggest they didn't expect a massive hit, but I think they would have just pulled the plug and eaten the development cost if they had any idea how bad it was going to be.
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Jun 9, 2019 22:35
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Reality Sinner posted:Garfield has come back to wotc to make some sets and those sets have been very well received. He designed the first Ravnica set and they've come back to it like 3-4 times now.
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Jun 9, 2019 22:56
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Irony Be My Shield posted:It seems like that set was largely skipped for Artifact, with a lot of the feedback they received during the closed beta being totally masturbatory because people wanted to be insiders on the next big Valve promise fixed that
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Jun 9, 2019 23:23
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Avasculous posted:I doubt this, actually. The game peaked at ~60k users, who each bought in for $20. Assuming the whales and the huge number who spent 0 additional dollars averages out to $40 total/user, the total revenue for the game was around 2.5 million dollars. Yeah Valve used to have a reputation for being overwhelmingly cautious when it came to game dev. This whole debacle is pretty solid proof that the Valve we knew back in the day doesn’t exist anymore.
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Jun 9, 2019 23:44
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Groovelord Neato posted:the worst part is not adding the new heroes to dota. ....why would there be non-DOTA heroes in the DOTA card game? lol valve come on guys, get that brand synergy going
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Jun 9, 2019 23:48
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Groovelord Neato posted:the worst part is not adding the new heroes to dota. Still shaking my head at the new red spear-wielding hero in Dota 2 being some dude named Mars and not Sorla Khan. Such a strange decision
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Jun 10, 2019 01:39
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Still shaking my head at the new red spear-wielding hero in Dota 2 being some dude named Mars and not Sorla Khan. Such a strange decision I've seen discussions about how the terrible Sonic design was intentionally different from the regular renditions in order to give it a degree of separation from the film which they figured would be bad and the main franchise which is only unintentionally bad, and I wonder if this is something similar. Like, they didn't want to move any Artifact heroes into Dota until they knew the game was successful and now that it's not they can safely drop all their plans of doing that. That being said I think both Mars and all the original Artifact heroes are poorly designed but in very different ways
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Jun 10, 2019 02:00
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