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nine-gear crow posted:Though that last one's worth it for the revelation that Asriel was dating both of them behind one another's backs and they each made his life uniquely miserable. I missed that. That's hilarious.
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Jun 11, 2019 07:19
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MonsieurChoc posted:I missed that. That's hilarious. Yeah, I think Bratty's story is more subdued, but in Catty's version he takes her to the prom, she spikes the punch, spills the spiked punch bowl all over him, then gets arrested by Undyne in the parking lot for drunk and disorderly.
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Jun 11, 2019 07:36
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*e* whoop wrong thread
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Jun 11, 2019 08:28
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Half of Dracula posted:*e* whoop wrong thread For what it's worth, I haven't watched the anime in question, but no, the character in question is clearly a lovely Gen X'ailur 
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Jun 11, 2019 08:30
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nine-gear crow posted:Yeah, I think Bratty's story is more subdued, but in Catty's version he takes her to the prom, she spikes the punch, spills the spiked punch bowl all over him, then gets arrested by Undyne in the parking lot for drunk and disorderly. It's so subdued I didn't even pick up on it. When is that alluded to?
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Jun 11, 2019 09:56
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Samovar posted:It's so subdued I didn't even pick up on it. When is that alluded to? If you talk to each of them about Asriel they each bring up a romantic anecdote about him. Bratty says that Asriel gave her her first kiss because she cornered him in a game of spin the bottle (though the DR wiki says it was truth or dare), and she believes Asriel was going to propose to her before he skipped town. And Catty brings up the prom disaster when you talk to her about him. The throughline in both instances being they were both way more into it than he clearly was and Toriel quickly ruined both relationships by being an overreacting church mom. Like, it's heavily implied that she was even the one who called the cops on Catty.
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Jun 11, 2019 10:15
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Catty sounds like a really catastrophic date so I don't really blame her for sinking that ship tbh.
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Jun 11, 2019 12:33
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the ff7 announcement made me realize that i played undertale three times without ever being reminded of another game where a bed of yellow flowers breaks someone's fall caught the illusion of gaia reference in deltarune right off, somehow missed this
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Jun 11, 2019 13:33
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Danaru posted:Alphys on the other hand fuckin' sucks and basically derailed any chance of a peaceful resolution by going "ALMOST GOT YOUR SOUL SPLENDA ANY SECOND NOW" constantly making Asgore think he didnt need to look for an alternative anymore, Alphys made a fake soul for Mettaton so she clearly has it under control. She didn't make a fake soul for him, she built a robot body for him to possess. The soul he has is his own soul, since he's a ghost monster like Napstablook and the Mad Dummy. But when he made his showbiz debut, he presented himself as a robot created by Alphys with an artificial soul instead of as a ghost possessing a robot that Alphys built.
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Jun 11, 2019 13:46
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W.T. Fits posted:She didn't make a fake soul for him, she built a robot body for him to possess. The soul he has is his own soul, since he's a ghost monster like Napstablook and the Mad Dummy. But when he made his showbiz debut, he presented himself as a robot created by Alphys with an artificial soul instead of as a ghost possessing a robot that Alphys built. That's my point, Asgore figures she made one fake soul, surely she can do it again but strong enough to bust the barrier, then Alphys spent years watching anime and making nightmares while pretending she had the fake soul nearly finished
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Jun 11, 2019 13:52
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Note that Alphys did actually ultimately succeed with her idea to make a determination powered soul-vessel to gather up monster souls. Assuming that Alphys only came on to the stage when a number of fallen humans (possibly even all 6) have already been killed, far from almost derailing peace, Alphys actually managed to narrowly avert war. Toriel is actually wrong because none of the monsters knew the real truth - when a monster absorbs a human soul, control of the resulting body is *shared* between the souls. So Asgore + 1 human soul = a crazy being with huge powers semi-possessed by a murdered kid. Asgore + 2 human souls is even worse. The only way the barrier can actually be broken is exactly what we see in the True Pacifist ending, the vessel has to have 6 human souls + a whole lot of monster souls to provide the compassion and purpose so that all the souls resonate as one. The alternative is that at best the souls rebel and escape, and at worst the souls take over from Big Fuzzy Pushover Asgore and genocide all the monsters. Fangz fucked around with this message at 14:08 on Jun 11, 2019 |
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Jun 11, 2019 13:55
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Oxxidation posted:
Okay wait, what was this
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Jun 11, 2019 13:57
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GunnerJ posted:Okay wait, what was this The moss in Kris’ cell is a shout-out to the scene where the king imprisons Will early in IoG “even moss drinks water” is a direct quote this follows from Undertale itself, since Will’s grandmother cooks him snail pie in the opening of IoG
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Jun 11, 2019 14:02
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GunnerJ posted:Okay wait, what was this Yum Moss
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Jun 11, 2019 14:03
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Mm, right forgot about that, thanks.
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Jun 11, 2019 14:21
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Fangz posted:Toriel is actually wrong because none of the monsters knew the real truth - when a monster absorbs a human soul, control of the resulting body is *shared* between the souls. So Asgore + 1 human soul = a crazy being with huge powers semi-possessed by a murdered kid. Asgore + 2 human souls is even worse. The only way the barrier can actually be broken is exactly what we see in the True Pacifist ending, the vessel has to have 6 human souls + a whole lot of monster souls to provide the compassion and purpose so that all the souls resonate as one. flowey/asriel both had no trouble keeping them in check without frisk calling out to them, which is not a thing that anyone on the surface would likely be inclined to do and, again, her line to asgore was correct because it revealed the weakness of his intentions. the logistics of soul-eating do not apply to this situation
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Jun 11, 2019 14:24
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Oxxidation posted:and, again, her line to asgore was correct because it revealed the weakness of his intentions. the logistics of soul-eating do not apply to this situation The dude just watched both of his kids die in the same day, he should get a pass for being hyperbolic in anger and not fully thinking his plan out
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Jun 11, 2019 14:30
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Danaru posted:The dude just watched both of his kids die in the same day, he should get a pass for being hyperbolic in anger and not fully thinking his plan out his initial lashing out was one thing. refusing to correct the situation even as the years went on and the bodies kept piling up, not so much asgore's my favorite character in undertale and it's because the man's a gigantic fuckup imprisoned and immiserated by his own better nature
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Jun 11, 2019 14:32
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Oxxidation posted:flowey/asriel both had no trouble keeping them in check without frisk calling out to them, which is not a thing that anyone on the surface would likely be inclined to do Frisk precipitated the souls rebelling against Flowey but that's no guarantee that they wouldn't have rebelled anyway after a period of time. Asriel was able to resist attacking the humans like Chara wanted to, but I think saying that Asriel had 'no trouble' doing so is rather dubious. Toriel's line to Asgore is logical given what she knows, and Toriel does seem like the more 'logically problem-solve' member of the pair. But that's not to say she was correct and had all the information. The thing about the souls sharing control is an important fly in the ointment. Also yeah Toriel is hypocritical, because she knows full well the consequence of sending a human *alone* to Asgore. If she wanted to ensure no more humans were killed, she could have easily accompanied any one of the humans to Asgore, and with the human's help, deposed him. Or like, destroyed the exit to the Ruins at *any point*. Her self-isolation is a lot more about avoiding getting blood on her hands, than actually changing the situation. When she tells you to head for the exit, and to not let Asgore take your soul, she's knowingly setting you up to kill Asgore. Fangz fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Jun 11, 2019 |
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Jun 11, 2019 14:35
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Had the nice flutist lady plays Deltarune yet? I think her name was Lauren?
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Jun 11, 2019 19:12
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She has
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Jun 11, 2019 19:15
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Danaru posted:The dude just watched both of his kids die in the same day, he should get a pass for being hyperbolic in anger and not fully thinking his plan out So did Toriel? If there's one person who's got room to judge someone for their grief-fueled choices, it's her.
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Jun 11, 2019 19:25
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Danaru posted:That's my point, Asgore figures she made one fake soul, surely she can do it again but strong enough to bust the barrier, then Alphys spent years watching anime and making nightmares while pretending she had the fake soul nearly finished Ah, my bad. I misinterpreted your post.
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Jun 11, 2019 19:46
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I never finished Undertale because I'm just slightly colourblind enough that the blue bullets are hard to tell apart from the white bullets. Especially when they're going fast.
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Jun 11, 2019 19:59
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MonsieurChoc posted:I never finished Undertale because I'm just slightly colourblind enough that the blue bullets are hard to tell apart from the white bullets. Especially when they're going fast. Did you try after Toby patched the game? https://twitter.com/tobyfox/status/689494229718999040?lang=en
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Jun 11, 2019 20:02
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Fangz posted:Did you try after Toby patched the game? No, this might solve it!
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Jun 11, 2019 20:52
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Toriel's calling Asgore a coward for not doing anything in any direction he's an intensely sympathetic coward, granted, paralyzed between his obligation to his people and his horror at killing people, but he's unable to face his fear of letting his people lose hope and has fallen into the role of murderer because he values that hope over his own moral validity. He's gone suicidal over it, and honestly? it's understandable. frankly he's a more sympathetic coward than toriel, who just left and didn't try to fix anything, or alphys, who told absolutely no one of the amalgamates in her basement the characters are very, very strong, it turns out
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Jun 12, 2019 00:18
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I'll say one thing for Toriel not doing anything to stop Asgore - he is the king, and she is not. It's one thing to argue with your husband but another to commit treason. If she didn't respect the institution of the monarchy she wouldn't have been queen in the first place.
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Jun 12, 2019 00:21
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When I played Undertale for the first time, I knew that there was a pacifist route and I decided wanted to shoot for that ending, since I generally don't care for the "evil" route in most games that have a moral choice system. After I got through Hotland and the Core, I thought I was ready for whatever the game could throw at me in terms of fights. So I was completely caught off guard when all the monsters in the capital, instead of attacking me, told me the story of the royal family and the tragic death of their children. And then I finally arrive at the castle and oh god why does it look exactly like Toriel's house... and then I get further in and there's Asgore and oh my god he's just like Toriel okay okay, it's all right, we'll figure out a way out of this, I just need to stay determined and... ... he broke my Mercy button. What. No. No, you can't do this. This isn't fair, you can't do this to me. This is supposed to be a game where nobody has to die, why are you loving doing this to me, I DON'T WANT TO loving FIGHT HIM, I DON'T WANT TO KILL HIM WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS TO ME THIS IS BULLSHIT! I was so goddamn relieved when I finished that fight and the Mercy button was back and I was given the option to spare him. ... and then that loving flower showed up. I don't know what other people's reactions to Photoshop Flowey was, but at that point, I was way too loving pissed off to be freaked out or scared of him. So in conclusion, the whole lead up to the Asgore fight, the fight itself, and the aftermath, was emotionally manipulative as hell, and one of my favorite parts of the Undertale experience.
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Jun 12, 2019 00:41
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I was killing indiscriminately on my first playthrough. I think the moment I went "oh gently caress" was fighting Undyne the first time around. That really shook me, I just didn't expect it. It also wasn't until playing the second time that i paid attention to fighting Toriel that she didn't really want to kill you. I was still acting like it was regular RPG game. i just watched my brother try to spare everyone on his first playthrough afterwards and i clearly missed ALOT of poo poo just by trying to figure the monsters out. I did absolutely none of these things until it was forced on me by the bosses.
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Jun 12, 2019 01:57
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Fargin Icehole posted:I was killing indiscriminately on my first playthrough. I think the moment I went "oh gently caress" was fighting Undyne the first time around. That really shook me, I just didn't expect it. Consider you answer to this question very, very carefully: What did you do with Lesser Dog?
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Jun 12, 2019 03:12
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Jen X posted:frankly he's a more sympathetic coward than toriel, who just left and didn't try to fix anything, or alphys, who told absolutely no one of the amalgamates in her basement I will absolutely stan for Asgore but I hate pretty much every take along these lines. For one thing, Alphys is one of the only characters in the game who never exhibits even the slightest intention of seriously hurting or capturing a child. The whole thing with Mettaton was poor judgement on her part, but even then, in terms of being actively malicious or cold, Papyrus of all people is meaner. (Side note: Once I saw a post that suggested Undyne was "too good for her," which is part of why I bring that stuff up - it's absurd on its face.) More to the point, the amalgamate thing is the same way. Was it cowardly to refuse to own up to it? Sure. Was it more cowardly than Asgore refusing to back down, or Toriel holing herself up in the Ruins, or Undyne and Mettaton concocting ridiculous excuses for child murder so they don't have to confront the gravity of their actions? I don't think so, especially considering the context. The amalgamates are a direct result of Alphys trying and failing to save monsters' lives. Even ignoring her severe depression, it's easy to view what happened to them as "a fate worse than death," something that their families are better off not knowing... If only because they won't hate her guts on top of their grief. She's wrong, of course, but calling her unsympathetic bc she feels like dirt about her failed attempts at groundbreaking medical science, and doesn't want to make herself or others feel even worse? I don't get that at all. If anything, of the core cast, I'd argue she's the best person, if only by process of elimination.
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Jun 12, 2019 03:17
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Jen X posted:frankly he's a more sympathetic coward than toriel, who just left and didn't try to fix anything, or alphys, who told absolutely no one of the amalgamates in her basement Could Toriel have done anything? I got the idea she left because just about everyone was on board with the plan. If you kill enough monsters and/or kill Undyne/Papyrus, when she comes to take over now that Asgore's dead and tries to implement a "let's be nice to humans who fall down here" law the monsters rebel and depose her. She probably tried to get Asgore to publicly walk back his declaration but with him refusing and everyone wanting it, I think she did what she thought would work for trying to stop humans who came to the Underground from leaving the Ruins and getting killed.
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Jun 12, 2019 03:19
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MaxieSatan posted:She's wrong, of course, but calling her unsympathetic bc she feels like dirt about her failed attempts at groundbreaking medical science, and doesn't want to make herself or others feel even worse? I don't get that at all. If anything, of the core cast, I'd argue she's the best person, if only by process of elimination. I always get really frustrated at the hate Alphys gets.
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Jun 12, 2019 03:41
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I guess it depends how you morally see an an amateur experimental medical treatment turning someone into the robocop toxic waste guy by accident (but worse) then locking them in a pitch-black basement. For some people that goes beyond every moral sensibility and is just so horrible, I basically zoned out the rest of the game because it was so disgusting. For others it's not as bad so the character is controversial I guess. No Wave fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Jun 12, 2019 |
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Jun 12, 2019 03:53
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MaxieSatan posted:For one thing, Alphys is one of the only characters in the game who never exhibits even the slightest intention of seriously hurting or capturing a child. The whole thing with Mettaton was poor judgement on her part, but even then, in terms of being actively malicious or cold, Papyrus of all people is meaner. asgore and undyne attempt to kill frisk because the fate of their entire civilization hangs in the balance and there is no other course of action which would result in anything other than being trapped underground forever. mettaton tries to kill frisk partly so that he can personally escape but also because he's fallen in love with humanity and wants to prevent asgore from destroying them. papyrus tries to capture frisk for personal gain but legitimately has no idea that frisk would actually be harmed by this in any way and doesn't seem to understand why the king even wants humans captured. alphys does not attempt to kill frisk but does put them in incredibly harmful situations which can and do result in them getting hurt purely because she wants to feel important. no other reason, any of the situations she set up could have resulted in frisk dying and there is no point to them whatsoever. civilizations aren't on the line, there's no great noble goal that might provide any justification for it. she just feels like doing it so that she can get to be cool. she's doing something that's 90% as bad as what everyone else is doing for 0% of the justifiable reasons.
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Jun 12, 2019 04:08
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Alphys also had basically no stakes besides wanting to be popular. Asgore and Toriel lost their kids and are dealing with it in lovely ways, Alphys wanted to be popular and then accidentally did a Mengele in her basement. Plus the whole thing with her and Mettaton having a fake adventure was super gross and manipulative. Honestly I'd consider Asgore trying to kill you so he can use your soul to free his people LESS cold than leading you on a lovely adventure where you almost died so Alphys could play anime adventure time. At least Asgore is trying to accomplish something. E: ^^^ yeah that.
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Jun 12, 2019 04:12
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cock hero flux posted:alphys does not attempt to kill frisk but does put them in incredibly harmful situations which can and do result in them getting hurt purely because she wants to feel important. no other reason, any of the situations she set up could have resulted in frisk dying and there is no point to them whatsoever. civilizations aren't on the line, there's no great noble goal that might provide any justification for it. she just feels like doing it so that she can get to be cool. she's doing something that's 90% as bad as what everyone else is doing for 0% of the justifiable reasons. You can never get hurt in those situations - if you fail (and it's actually set up so that it's really hard to fail and you probably have do so intentionally), Mettaton always comes up with an excuse for why he can't actually kill Frisk and lets you go on. Only when he decides to go against Alphys's plan in the Core are you actually in real danger from him.
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Jun 12, 2019 04:14
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She turns off the lasers the moment it looks like you might die. None of the television segments can kill you. The monsters in Hotland can kill you but she doesn't seem to have any control over them. Mettaton wasn't kidding; the dangers she was putting you through didn't exist. You can fault her for wasting your time for her own benefit, but at no point in her scheme as written could you possibly die. It was only when Mettaton started going off-script that you started facing real danger. ETA: Also, Mettaton specifically mentions that Alphys hoped you would like her enough that she could convince you to stay and not kill Asgore, so it's wrong to say she has no stakes in her fake adventure besides her own gratification. TheArchimage fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Jun 12, 2019 |
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Jun 12, 2019 04:17
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The giant paroramic area outside snowdin is beautiful but definitely undermined the feeling that the monsters are trapped in a tiny claustrophobic environment.
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Jun 12, 2019 04:23
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