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It would be hilarious if the speculation of the WoL being their own version of tempered is true and at the end the WoL is finally freed and just walks off to somewhere far away while giving everyone the middle finger all like "gently caress this poo poo, I am gonna retire somewhere way less prone to disasters"
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Jun 11, 2019 17:55
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Vermain posted:My guess is that they're both similar to Ramuh: they can't help the fact that people see in absolutes and take their respective ideals too far, because, as Primals, they must appear when summoned. If you think back to the times the Echo pops up in Stormblood, it's almost exclusively used to contextualize the nature of people like Yotsuyu and Fordola. If Hydaelyn was merely interested in spreading the Light everywhere, then why give you visions specifically intended to foster a nuanced view of the world? That is a very good point. Maybe it all comes back to those first words, way back from our trip into Eorzea. Hear... Feel... Think...
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Jun 11, 2019 18:16
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Vermain posted:That's the thing. The MSQ starts with it being clearly established that you're already Hydaelyn's chosen, and, consequently, you behave in the same obsessive way that someone tempered might behave. The WoL is, diegetically, a loving bizarre person who is endlessly heroic, kind, and self-sacrificing in a way that's well beyond what any normal person would ever be able to sustain. It's not that you're just an awfully nice person: it's that you're unknowingly compelled to be a paragon of good. that’s kind of my problem with it you cant just be an exceptional person on your own merits that stepped up to fill a void others could not, the right person at the right time, no, you have to be loving tempered I’m not saying I can’t see where the theory comes from, I’m saying it would be extremely unsatisfying to learn after all this time
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Jun 11, 2019 18:29
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Vermain posted:That's the thing. The MSQ starts with it being clearly established that you're already Hydaelyn's chosen, and, consequently, you behave in the same obsessive way that someone tempered might behave. The WoL is, diegetically, a loving bizarre person who is endlessly heroic, kind, and self-sacrificing in a way that's well beyond what any normal person would ever be able to sustain. It's not that you're just an awfully nice person: it's that you're unknowingly compelled to be a paragon of good. I mean, you're also a JRPG protagonist. That sort of comes with the territory-- and even then, stuff like the DRK storyline characterizes the WoL enough to undercut the more sinister interpretation of that.
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Jun 11, 2019 18:29
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UHD posted:that’s kind of my problem with it It’s been pretty clear all this time though. Don’t think you’re under control? Pray return to the waking sands.
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Jun 11, 2019 18:30
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UHD posted:I'm not saying I can't see where the theory comes from, I'm saying it would be extremely unsatisfying to learn after all this time I would find it satisfying if it's handled right. What I think they're aiming for with the WoL in Shadowbringers is that it simply isn't healthy to try and be this ne'er-do-wrong paragon 100% of the time with limited-to-no (diegetic) help. The last main beat the 4.X MSQ leaves off on is you soldiering on, fighting through a warzone, and eventually dueling the most powerful opponent you ever individually faced while you're constantly on the verge of blacking out. You can't help it because you're tempered by Hydaelyn, and she can't help it because it's ultimately out of her control. If Shadowbringers is ultimately about "achieving balance," then there's no way to better represent it on an individual level than the WoL coming to terms with the fact that they have to treat themselves as a person instead of a servant at the constant beck-and-call of literally everyone, driving themselves into ruin doing so. Just as you embark on an impersonal journey to save the First by bringing back the Dark, you also embark on a simultaneous personal journey to find a balance between the two that severs the tempered chain blindly impelling you forwards.
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Jun 11, 2019 18:45
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Vermain posted:I would find it satisfying if it's handled right. What I think they're aiming for with the WoL in Shadowbringers is that it simply isn't healthy to try and be this ne'er-do-wrong paragon 100% of the time with limited-to-no (diegetic) help. The last main beat the 4.X MSQ leaves off on is you soldiering on, fighting through a warzone, and eventually dueling the most powerful opponent you ever individually faced while you're constantly on the verge of blacking out. You can't help it because you're tempered by Hydaelyn, and she can't help it because it's ultimately out of her control. If Shadowbringers is ultimately about "achieving balance," then there's no way to better represent it on an individual level than the WoL coming to terms with the fact that they have to treat themselves as a person instead of a servant at the constant beck-and-call of literally everyone, driving themselves into ruin doing so. Just as you embark on an impersonal journey to save the First by bringing back the Dark, you also embark on a simultaneous personal journey to find a balance between the two that severs the tempered chain blindly impelling you forwards. you can do all that without the dumb plot twist tho a plot twist I don’t even think is true but the idea bugs me enough to bitch about it in the thread
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Jun 11, 2019 18:53
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Given the nature of the revelations about Primals all the way back in Heavensward, it seems to me that players should really stop referring to them as being “summoned”, as if they came from somewhere, when something like “manifested” seems more likely. It’s not like something had to have historically ever existed to be made manifest as a primal. In fact, I wonder if primals actually even have a consciousness/will, or if it’s all just a Chinese Room situation. Personally, I’d bet on the latter. Maybe with the exception of ones like Shiva, etc.
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Jun 11, 2019 18:55
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It’s all just aether, mannnn
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Jun 11, 2019 18:57
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I kind of hate that the trailer ended on that because now I have to endure three weeks of "actually you were under mind control all along" theories
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Jun 11, 2019 19:02
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CuddlyZombie posted:Given the nature of the revelations about Primals all the way back in Heavensward, it seems to me that players should really stop referring to them as being “summoned”, as if they came from somewhere, when something like “manifested” seems more likely. It’s not like something had to have historically ever existed to be made manifest as a primal.
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Jun 11, 2019 19:03
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funkmeister posted:Obviously, the WoL way to reconcile the two is to beat them up at the same time. I knew finishing the Smash Bros Ultimate story was going to help me in the future
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Jun 11, 2019 19:08
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Vermain posted:That's the thing. The MSQ starts with it being clearly established that you're already Hydaelyn's chosen, and, consequently, you behave in the same obsessive way that someone tempered might behave. The WoL is, diegetically, a loving bizarre person who is endlessly heroic, kind, and self-sacrificing in a way that's well beyond what any normal person would ever be able to sustain. It's not that you're just an awfully nice person: it's that you're unknowingly compelled to be a paragon of good. A lot of characters at points take note of how just uncanny you are as well and how you're kind of a blank slate. Even a very boring character like uhhh the EU Warrior of Light (first one that came to my mind) from FF1 has some semblance of personality: A very boring, stoic, "I'm the lead character of a Rhapsody of Fire Album" personality, but a personality nevertheless. UHD posted:that’s kind of my problem with it You're hardly just the right person at the right time, though - It's one thing for you to be a WoW character starting in Elwynn Forest and slowly uncovering an entire bizarre political plot while rising in ranks, raiding dragons, being blessed by countless different deities until the point where you're raised to the ranks of General, and so on. FFXIV starts after a mass cataclysmic event and your character is immediately, right away presented with an ominous meeting with a godlike entity. You then follow a very narrow road pretty much blindly - when Ser Aymric asks you what you want for yourself, the reaction is of surprise because you never even considered that there was a yourself. You meet Ifrit and his reaction is that you've already been claimed. Ramuh comments on how Light and Dark might be fruits of people's mind (just like every other Primal or Primal-like activity). You're not just the right person at the right time, you're a Meteor Survivor who was Chosen by Hydaelyn, had a very private talk to Her and then were granted her Blessing. Then, the game starts. Also in FF whenever you're dealing with deities you're... I want to say almost always but I can't think of an exception, in the games I played you're basically always being used as a pawn one way or another. I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions but none are coming to mind right now. But beyond that there's really nothing about you that screams being the right person at the right time. You're specifically chosen by a deity just as soon as the game starts to do her bidding, in a world where all known deities are fruits of people's desires, and even Ramuh comments on how the same might be the case with Light and Dark. I wouldn't be surprised if they pull off a switcheroo and all of that was a red herring all along but I would say that would be the real plot twist. Elentor fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Jun 11, 2019 |
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Jun 11, 2019 19:10
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Blockhouse posted:I kind of hate that the trailer ended on that because now I have to endure three weeks of "actually you were under mind control all along" theories It happened to ME3, and it's happening again.
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Jun 11, 2019 19:11
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Referring to Hyd/Zod as "Primal" feels like a weird hitch in taxonomy more than anything.
We refer to all of these as "gods"("primals") but each one has significantly different function and relation within respective contexts and comparing them horizontally really doesn't pan out in terms of what it means to refer to them as gods. Hyd/Zod have far more going on than any other "Primal" we've come across so to just toss the label on them seem a bit disingenuous (big shock, half-truths used to trap protagonists!!)
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Jun 11, 2019 19:21
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I think the dude who restarted production of the death gas might not be entirely forthcoming with what he knows
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Jun 11, 2019 19:22
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I read a lore discussion post elsewhere about how perhaps light and dark and Hydaelyn and Zodiark are manifested by peoples’ desire for there to be cosmic good and evil and now I want an expansion boss to be The Fallacious Concept of a Just World
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Jun 11, 2019 19:25
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Ya'll are really not capitalizing on this. You spent weeks in Eureka because the momcrystal made you. You caught all the fish because the momcrystal made you. You maxed out your crafters because the momcrystal made you. You fell off those ledges/stood in the fire because the momcrystal made you. Embrace it.
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Jun 11, 2019 19:26
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Mods, please rename the thread "Final Fantasy XIV: SpoilerBringers"
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Jun 11, 2019 19:26
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Cythereal posted:It happened to ME3, and it's happening again. I'm gonna go with the red crystal.
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Jun 11, 2019 19:30
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Vitamean posted:I think the dude who restarted production of the death gas might not be entirely forthcoming with what he knows There's an annoying other level to this. How much faith do you have in the writers? I'm sorry to say mine is diminished a little after the reductive 4.x plots, Zenos and Solus and their hamminess, but I guess this is too obvious to be 100% on the nose. Also, this is, after all, by the same people who wrote HW. So I guess I'll remin optimistic about it being interesting to see where they go with this.
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Jun 11, 2019 19:32
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Vitamean posted:I think the dude who restarted production of the death gas might not be entirely forthcoming with what he knows wol: so that means... oh no!” *rushes off* ascian: *wrings hands and cackles*
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Jun 11, 2019 19:36
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so whats everyone leveling first to 80? i think im gonna do SMN, get that MSQ dps exp, plus get a free healer with it at 80 sinc ei bet those queues are gonna be instant for a long rear end time. if there's a raubahn ex then ill do gunbreaker while that gets sorted.
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Jun 11, 2019 19:38
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I think the expansion that has the leader writer who also wrote the dark knight questlines that were explicitly about having free will and choosing to do the right thing even amidst frustration and pain and sorrow is not going to have the plot twist that you never had free will at all
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Jun 11, 2019 19:39
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queeb posted:so whats everyone leveling first to 80? i think im gonna do SMN, get that MSQ dps exp, plus get a free healer with it at 80 sinc ei bet those queues are gonna be instant for a long rear end time. Well SMN will most likely end up my main but I think I'll do the MSQ as dancer or red mage because holding a book in battle cutscenes looks silly. I'm not overly worried about queue times, I'll just do fates or something while I wait assuming I can't use Trusts (I will use Trusts whenever possible for dialogue).
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Jun 11, 2019 19:41
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queeb posted:so whats everyone leveling first to 80? i think im gonna do SMN, get that MSQ dps exp, plus get a free healer with it at 80 sinc ei bet those queues are gonna be instant for a long rear end time. Taking sam to 80 first, following up with monk for nostalgia and gear matching purposes. Then probably dancer next. Unless they gently caress opening weekend again and I can't sneak past for those sweet dps instant queues, then it'll be dancer first.
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Jun 11, 2019 19:42
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Cythereal posted:It happened to ME3, and it's happening again. I mean, I am tempered by the writers. If they left that as a cliffhanger it's because they want me, their faithful servant, to discuss it and theorize over their cliffhanger. And as a loyal servant of the 
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Jun 11, 2019 19:43
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You, the player, are a primal. The dark world is just the internet and the echo is your g600 logitech mouse precision pointer and
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Jun 11, 2019 19:44
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queeb posted:so whats everyone leveling first to 80? i think im gonna do SMN, get that MSQ dps exp, plus get a free healer with it at 80 sinc ei bet those queues are gonna be instant for a long rear end time. GNB mostly because it looks fun, but I'm probably not going to be able to actually main it. Then NIN or AST for a real main.
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Jun 11, 2019 19:44
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Saint Freak posted:You, the player, are a primal. The dark world is just the internet and the echo is your g600 logitech mouse precision pointer and How the gently caress did you guess my mouse Are we all that predictable
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Jun 11, 2019 19:44
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The Blessing Of Light and the Echo aren't the same thing right? Didn't you get echo stuff in HW
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Jun 11, 2019 19:45
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queeb posted:so whats everyone leveling first to 80? i think im gonna do SMN, get that MSQ dps exp, plus get a free healer with it at 80 sinc ei bet those queues are gonna be instant for a long rear end time. Probably going to stick with RDM for the MSQ but I'm really itching to try out DNC. But also the DRG changes might make me switch back to it (It was my main through HW before I switched to RDM from the button bloat)...
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Jun 11, 2019 19:45
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queeb posted:so whats everyone leveling first to 80? i think im gonna do SMN, get that MSQ dps exp, plus get a free healer with it at 80 sinc ei bet those queues are gonna be instant for a long rear end time. DRG probably, since I suspect it'll take me up until a few days before launch to get through the rest of Stormblood. After finishing 5.0 I'm taking all my DoH/L up to 80, due to having terminal grinding disease
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Jun 11, 2019 19:47
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queeb posted:so whats everyone leveling first to 80? i think im gonna do SMN, get that MSQ dps exp, plus get a free healer with it at 80 sinc ei bet those queues are gonna be instant for a long rear end time. SAM, then a tank (PLD looks good but will consider post-launch trip reports), then a healer (same consideration). ShB's direction with SAM is the kind I want for a class that's already good, and double Midare/single target Guren will be fun.
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Jun 11, 2019 19:47
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I will hella do dancer first then probably scholar between hoh and beast tribes and such it shouldn’t be too hard to get a dancer up to speed and decked out in ilvl 400 gear
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Jun 11, 2019 19:49
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Elentor posted:A lot of characters at points take note of how just uncanny you are as well and how you're kind of a blank slate. Even a very boring character like uhhh the EU Warrior of Light (first one that came to my mind) from FF1 has some semblance of personality: A very boring, stoic, "I'm the lead character of a Rhapsody of Fire Album" personality, but a personality nevertheless. Ehh, it's also kind of unsaid that you also went though the entire happenings of 1.0. So you're a little more than a random dude. Albu-quirky Guy posted:Mods, please rename the thread "Final Fantasy XIV: SpoilerBringers" It should be everyone's duty on quoting to reveal headcanon and plot points that are years old at this point. One issue with the Mom's a primal thing is that isn't she the aether source sorta? IE every time a primal gets summoned it pulls it's energy from her?
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Jun 11, 2019 19:52
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https://twitter.com/Aelrindyl/status/1138511395203493888?s=19
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Jun 11, 2019 19:54
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Oscar Wilde Bunch posted:Ehh, it's also kind of unsaid that you also went though the entire happenings of 1.0. So you're a little more than a random dude. I assumed that but I didnt play through 1.0, but yeah, sure. But yeah, point being you're not just a random person.
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Jun 11, 2019 19:59
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CuddlyZombie posted:I read a lore discussion post elsewhere about how perhaps light and dark and Hydaelyn and Zodiark are manifested by peoples’ desire for there to be cosmic good and evil and now I want an expansion boss to be The Fallacious Concept of a Just World At least the music for Fallacious Concept of a Just World(Savage) will probably be rocking.
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Jun 11, 2019 20:02
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queeb posted:so whats everyone leveling first to 80? i think im gonna do SMN, get that MSQ dps exp, plus get a free healer with it at 80 sinc ei bet those queues are gonna be instant for a long rear end time. I'm 50/50 between WHM and AST, but AST cards look so much loving better than the old system it might win me over. I don't know if I'll enjoy being so unkillable but ineffectual in solo duties though. WHM at least has some kick behind throwing holy rocks. WHM, AST and DRK will be first three though.
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