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Coolguye posted:how do you square this belief with your own genetic history as a predatory ape? What in tarnation am I reading?
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Jun 12, 2019 23:13
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Chomp8645 posted:What in tarnation am I reading? I think that he means opportunistic ape. We didn't always or just hunt. We also ate nuts and tubers and poo poo that
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Jun 12, 2019 23:19
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substantial meat-eating is the big thing that separated our evolutionary line from, for example, gorillas and it provided a lot of the spare fat and protein required for our brains to grow to their characteristic size. vegetation foraging is common to all large primates (including humans and our ancestor links). it's a scientific fact that we are only where we are and what we are today because our ancestors ate lots and lots of cooked meat and it is further not arguable that they primarily hunted for it (as opposed to scavenged). hence, the term 'predatory ape'. so, specifically, if we want to get into this, is it meat-eating as a whole that is not ok, even in the context of hunting and killing your otherwise happy prey, or is meat eating generally fine, it's farming that's the problem, and hunting a more humane form of meat acquisition than animal husbandry? if the former, then you're acting against hundreds of thousands of years of evolution and that's a rather odd position to be in. if you want to take it, that's fine, but it's a lot harder to act like a smug dork when you've admitted this precept precisely because most people don't share it. if the latter, your ideal world involves the status quo that resulted in the extinction of hundreds of species at the pressure of paleo humanity to acquire meat and you are agitating for a situation that will objectively result in more ecological ruin in return for being nebulously more moral. it is, again a lot harder to act like a smug dork when you've admitted this precept. e: not that this truly matters now i guess because as i predicted the dude did not have the balls to talk about this honestly. Coolguye fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Jun 13, 2019 |
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Jun 12, 2019 23:31
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it's probably the unnecessary suffering and death on industrial scales that people are objecting to
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Jun 13, 2019 00:31
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TheMaskedUgly posted:it's probably the unnecessary suffering and death on industrial scales that people are objecting to answer the questions coward
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Jun 13, 2019 01:33
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I wish we'd stop raising dumb as a sack of rocks cows just to kill them when we have millions of horsies running around in the southwest eating and loving and messing poo poo up we can kill for tasty meats
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Jun 13, 2019 01:46
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thatguy posted:I wish we'd stop raising dumb as a sack of rocks cows just to kill them when we have millions of horsies running around in the southwest eating and loving and messing poo poo up we can kill for tasty meats our fatasses can't catch the horses, we need our meats slow and cumbersome
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Jun 13, 2019 01:48
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Mnoba posted:our fatasses can't catch the horses, we need our meats slow and cumbersome you don't need to run fast to catch a dead horse
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Jun 13, 2019 01:49
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It's a pretty bizarre thing to argue that we evolved to do something so we should keep doing it forever, completely ignoring the entirety of all science outside of evolutionary history that all indicates that humans are perfectly capable of living quite healthily and successfully without eating meat. It's also strange to try to argue that any kind of food would be worse for the environment than beef production. It's also strange to ignore the fact that insects are healthier and less environmentally damaging of a food source than all the meat we eat now, and that the only reason we don't eat them now is because white people from a continent that didn't have good insects to eat took over the world and brought their cultural norms with them. Not to mention the lack of ethical concerns in farming insects, which all available science indicates do not experience pain or suffering in any way (nociception is not the same thing as pain). ...I guess it's not that strange if you understand that everyone who argues so much about how they have to eat meat constantly is just doing it because they have their masculinity all wrapped up in their meat consumption and aren't thinking about anything else in reality.
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Jun 13, 2019 03:22
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thatguy posted:I wish we'd stop raising dumb as a sack of rocks cows just to kill them when we have millions of horsies running around in the southwest eating and loving and messing poo poo up we can kill for tasty meats This but for deer. Venison is good eating and deer have 0 redeeming qualities otherwise
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Jun 13, 2019 03:24
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M Condriano posted:It's also strange to ignore the fact that insects are healthier and less environmentally damaging of a food source than all the meat we eat now. No one raises them in any kind of volume that would provide a means of proving the second part, and I'll need a citation on bugs being healthier than "all the meat." But thank you for adding "not eating bugs" to the long list of poo poo white people get blamed for. It's at least a fresh take.
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Jun 13, 2019 03:31
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M Condriano posted:It's a pretty bizarre thing to argue that we evolved to do something so we should keep doing it forever, completely ignoring the entirety of all science outside of evolutionary history that all indicates that humans are perfectly capable of living quite healthily and successfully without eating meat. Some people enjoy eating meat, dude. Meat tastes good. So do dairy products. That bit about masculinity is really godamn weird. Honky Dong Country fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Jun 13, 2019 |
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Jun 13, 2019 03:31
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Honky Dong Country posted:Some people enjoy eating meat, dude. Meat tastes good. So do dairy products. That's not what I was responding to. The people who eat meat and dairy because they taste good (myself included) do not write weird pseudoinformed arguments about evolution, they just say "I eat meat and dairy because they taste good." Wrath of the Bitch King posted:No one raises them in any kind of volume that would provide a means of proving the second part, and I'll need a citation on bugs being healthier than "all the meat." It's actually not a fresh take, it's a pretty well-known fact academically, for anyone who's done research on the topic. e: If you actually want citations, here they are in autogenerated MLA format. Premalatha, M., T. Abbasi, and SA Abbasi. "Energy-Efficient Food Production to Reduce Global Warming and Ecodegradation: The use of Edible Insects." Renewable & Sustainable Energy Reviews, vol. 15, no. 9, 2011, pp. 4357-4360. Science Direct, doi: 10.1016/j.rser.2011.07.115 van Huis, Arnold. "Edible Insects are the Future?" Proceedings of the Nutrition Society, vol. 75, no. 3, 2016, pp. 294-305. Cambridge Core, doi: 10.1017/S0029665116000069 ee: and here's one about white people being the reason humans stopped eating insects globally: Looy, Heather, Florence V. Dunkel, and John R. Wood. "How then Shall we Eat? Insect-Eating Attitudes and Sustainable Foodways." Agriculture and Human Values, vol. 31, no. 1, 2014, pp. 131-141. Springer Link doi: 10.1007/s10460-013-9450-x M Condriano fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Jun 13, 2019 |
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Jun 13, 2019 03:36
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M Condriano posted:e: If you actually want citations, here they are in autogenerated MLA format. That's cool of you, thanks.
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Jun 13, 2019 03:51
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Beef: it’s all about misogyny in consumption
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Jun 13, 2019 03:53
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Don't eat bugs if you're allergic to shellfish. You'll probably die. If you live in the zone you should farm up some cicadas in a forest this summer, cook and eat them. They're like shrimp x peanuts
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Jun 13, 2019 03:56
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Toxic masculinity is different from misogyny, they just have a lot of overlap. People who get mad about vegetarians also usually think soy beans give you boobs and make your balls fall off, which is actually kinda hilarious since it's so huge in China, the most populated country in the world (clearly they weren't having fertility issues when their population passed a billion and had to be fought with legislation and policy instead. You'd think the government would just lower the price of tofu if it was any good for making you less fertile).
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Jun 13, 2019 03:58
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tofu loving sucks and is the worst vegetarian protein. if you want proper vegetarian food that doesn't make you feel like your balls are going to fall off, look south of the himalayas
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Jun 13, 2019 04:00
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M Condriano posted:Toxic masculinity is different from misogyny, they just have a lot of overlap. People who get mad about vegetarians also usually think soy beans give you boobs and make your balls fall off, which is actually kinda hilarious since it's so huge in China, the most populated country in the world (clearly they weren't having fertility issues when their population passed a billion and had to be fought with legislation and policy instead. You'd think the government would just lower the price of tofu if it was any good for making you less fertile). How many bugs, on average, do you eat a day?
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Jun 13, 2019 04:03
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Burt Sexual posted:How many bugs, on average, do you eat a day? None, they don't sell insect products in the west. Though If I was the emperor of the Earth you'd all be eating insect protein instead of mammal protein and cows would be extinct.
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Jun 13, 2019 04:06
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also the only way americans are going to stop eating meat 3 meals a day is of all of you stop bitching and whining about it and teach a few hundred million people how to actually feed themselves that way. most people don't know where to start, beyond ordering something with tofu from an ethnic restaurant and buying disgusting imitation meat in the grocery store. this poo poo is why nobody goes to your meetings
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Jun 13, 2019 04:10
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You can buy bugs to eat dude you're just not gonna find them in some grocery because it's not a part of most Western cultures. Honestly if you're that passionate about eating bugs I would've figured you'd be doing it.
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Jun 13, 2019 04:10
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M Condriano posted:None, they don't sell insect products in the west. Though If I was the emperor of the Earth you'd all be eating insect protein instead of mammal protein and cows would be extinct. All smug, no bug. Fe should’ve saved that for the inevitable probe
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Jun 13, 2019 04:10
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Actually I was wrong, you can get bugs in loving Walmart, the biggest chain of stores there is lmao. https://www.walmart.com/ip/Bag-of-M...n0aApJFEALw_wcB E: and naturally there's about a million sources online Honky Dong Country fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Jun 13, 2019 |
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Jun 13, 2019 04:12
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Honky Dong Country posted:You can buy bugs to eat dude you're just not gonna find them in some grocery because it's not a part of most Western cultures. Honestly if you're that passionate about eating bugs I would've figured you'd be doing it. Who's passionate? I already said I eat meat and dairy because they taste good and I don't care that much about ethical procurement of food or trying to pretend like my actions have any meaningful impact on the environment. I was just making fun of some guy pretending like science supports his position when all he had to say was "I like meat and dairy because they taste good and I don't care that much about ethical procurement of food or trying to pretend like my actions have any meaningful impact on the environment", it's not that hard. If we were all going to live according to what science says is best meat would be outlawed because it's destroying the planet, but in real life that poo poo doesn't really matter. Burt Sexual posted:All smug, no bug. That would make for a really good probe reason.
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Jun 13, 2019 04:15
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I'll give the goon kudos for bringing citations at least.(whether or not they're valid or not due to specific measuring or whatever reason is a different matter) Also with the bug talk I just remembered a lot of stuff about aphid reproduction(tl;dr summary is parthenogenesis + offspring already born pregnant.) Very pro read if you're into biology IMO. Also also: don't be cruel to animals, bovines or bugs regardless. "I'm/You're going to eat them later" isn't an excuse.
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Jun 13, 2019 04:18
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I don't even know what point this dude is trying to make.
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Jun 13, 2019 04:19
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I was just making fun of some guy who said something dumb, I'm not really trying to make any point. I honestly thought that anyone with internet access already knew all this stuff, it's pretty uncontroversial.EorayMel posted:I'll give the goon kudos for bringing citations at least.(whether or not they're valid or not due to specific measuring or whatever reason is a different matter) The papers have details on methodology and data analysis if you're interested.
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Jun 13, 2019 04:21
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Meat eaters be like disgusting water bug, oh my god this is such a delicacy, it's so amazingly tasty, I don't care that it eats poo poo! not water bugs, oh my god this is gross as hell, how dare you suggest I eat this thing! *insert racist comments about how bug eating is for foreigners*
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Jun 13, 2019 04:21
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M Condriano posted:I was just making fun of some guy who said something dumb, I'm not really trying to make any point. I honestly thought that anyone with internet access already knew all this stuff, it's pretty uncontroversial. People are just used to these kind of posts having a clear agenda or being representative of the most tedious crusade in the world, like so: Do it ironically posted:Meat eaters be like
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Jun 13, 2019 04:23
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Would've been better to call out the dumb things specifically and ask for proof rather than going on a weird aimless tangent about bugs and bizarre assumptions of people being macho or something
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Jun 13, 2019 04:27
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Wrath of the Bitch King posted:People are just used to these kind of posts having a clear agenda or being representative of the most tedious crusade in the world, like so: Is my take on western responses to eating bugs wrong? What's the difference between eating a crab or lobster and a grub or grasshopper?
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Jun 13, 2019 04:28
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Your gimmick is dumb and people prolly aren't gonna engage because Burt's prolly gonna just probe you again.
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Jun 13, 2019 04:29
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maybe it's because peta which should have the most benign and friendly agenda in the world that everybody loves, is actually a garbage organization filled with garbage people and I'd rather eat a steak drowned in baby seal blood bbq sauce right in front of any number of peta spokespeople instead of ever aligning anything I do to anything they support
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Jun 13, 2019 04:30
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Tojo had me cooped up in a bamboo rat cage. Nothing to eat but rats. So that's what I ate. Then one day I was down to my last rat. I kept him alive so I could eat his droppings. Called it jungle rice! Tasted fine.
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Jun 13, 2019 04:30
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Honky Dong Country posted:Would've been better to call out the dumb things specifically and ask for proof rather than going on a weird aimless tangent about bugs and bizarre assumptions of people being macho or something I really didn't expect many people to take umbrage with that, aside from being well understood academically it was one of those things that rang true the first time I heard it. Also I forgot to cite this paper earlier, it's about greenhouse gasses produced by current livestock compared to insects: Oonincx, Dennis G. A. B., et al. "An Exploration on Greenhouse Gas and Ammonia Production by Insect Species Suitable for Animal or Human Consumption." Plos ONE, vol. 5, no. 12, Dec. 2010, pp. 1-7. EBSCOhost, doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0014445 insects rate at like 1-5% the GHGs of other animals iirc.
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Jun 13, 2019 04:32
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Skeleton Ape posted:Tojo had me cooped up in a bamboo rat cage. Nothing to eat but rats. So that's what I ate. Then one day I was down to my last rat. I kept him alive so I could eat his droppings. Called it jungle rice! Tasted fine. Lmao https://youtu.be/r8P__OhT7t0
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Jun 13, 2019 04:32
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M Condriano posted:It's a pretty bizarre thing to argue that we evolved to do something so we should keep doing it forever, completely ignoring the entirety of all science outside of evolutionary history that all indicates that humans are perfectly capable of living quite healthily and successfully without eating meat. and if THAT is more complicated than some reductionist sound bite, can't nutrition and meat eating? which, by the way, it already is, and you're objectively wrong about what 'science' says? vegan diets do not allow many children to thrive and have endangered many to the point of the state needing to intervene and call it child abuse. you can trivially google dozens of such articles and the NIH spells out that while vegetarian diets are perfectly fine, vegan diets have real risks that must be considered, especially for children who need large amounts of protein and fat to grow. but then, vegetarian diets permit the use of animal products and therefore keep animals in 'immoral' slavery. quote:It's also strange to try to argue that any kind of food would be worse for the environment than beef production. this also discounts the alternatives, which are all even worse for the ecology as a whole. as morally troubling as factory farming is, it's undeniable that it has returned hundreds of square miles of former pastureland to wilderness, which is the ultimate ecological win. i don't think anyone would argue that we would like food production of all stripes, meat included, to be cleaner, cheaper, and less cruel. i have never met a meat eater who would refuse a steak if the meat for it was grown in a lab using a biological 3d printer versus slaughtered in an abattoir. what i take issue with is this ridiculous moralizing that tries to con people into feeling bad about doing something that is pretty darned close to the best option for pretty much everyone and everything involved at this time. quote:It's also strange to ignore the fact that insects are healthier and less environmentally damaging of a food source than all the meat we eat now quote:Not to mention the lack of ethical concerns in farming insects, which all available science indicates do not experience pain or suffering in any way (nociception is not the same thing as pain). quote:...I guess it's not that strange if you understand that everyone who argues so much about how they have to eat meat constantly is just doing it because they have their masculinity all wrapped up in their meat consumption and aren't thinking about anything else in reality. as a PS, your own citations (i happen to have access to back issues of agriculture and human values thanks to living in loving kansas and being an avid patron of the library system) lay the lie to your 'white people' diatribe, as they note that even civilizations that developed parallel to anglo ones tended to abandon insects as a food source as they got richer. moving up the trophic pyramid (further away from plants and small animals) is a pattern you can see going back to paleo man (as explored in The Red Queen) and can see today as people are lifted out of poverty (Poor Economics). Coolguye fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Jun 13, 2019 |
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Jun 13, 2019 04:32
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Honky Dong Country posted:Your gimmick is dumb and people prolly aren't gonna engage because Burt's prolly gonna just probe you again. It's not a gimmick and I'm not de-railing the thread I'm staying on topic here
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Jun 13, 2019 04:35
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M Condriano posted:I really didn't expect many people to take umbrage with that, aside from being well understood academically it was one of those things that rang true the first time I heard it. It's cool stuff but I have a lot of questions when you get to a point where it becomes a food mainstay. This might be addressed in one of your sources but issues like containment become a serious concern unless you're genetically engineering all the insects to be flightless, incapable of large movements, or controlling their ability to breed through hormones (or whatever the bug equivalent is). Just questions of scale, mostly. When a truck full of chickens gets t-boned on the highway you don't have to worry about that completely decimating the ecology of an area, but with insects that might not be the case. Eating insects makes sense and the doing of it is well known, but I don't think that bugs being intrinsically healthier than your typical meat sources is common knowledge.
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Jun 13, 2019 04:38
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