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plenty of the DPS damage classes have highly reactive play, and in fact most of the newer ones trend towards that. The 'classic' ffxiv inflexible rotations are really only the DRG, maybe SMN, and I guess NIN and MNK? BLM kinda has one but its more like your 'baseline' while you're using your other buttons to dodge or tank aoes and feel like an insane wizard badass. RDM is highly proc-based and is about management of multiple meters. BRD is completely reactive plate-spinning. SAM is very flexible based on what your needs are. So melee is a little more inflexible but they are also contending with the need to avoid damage in a boss's face. MCH is also a thing but kinda not worth talking about until SHB drops. DNC is also going to be a proc-based and DDR-based class.
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Jun 13, 2019 22:11
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Sacro posted:The main difference is WoW updates roughly seven trillion times more frequently and trusts the client more, so combat feels more responsive and for a topical example dodging AoE a second in advance means you've actually dodged it which is not always the case in 14. To actually answer your question though, WoW has a lot more complex class mechanics revolving around a lot of random procs or other things that change what you should be pressing on the fly. Encounter design also requires reactive play to things that happen. The idea of mapping out what buttons you'll press for optimal dps throughout an entire savage fight is mind boggling to someone used to WoW. I'm trying not to add too much to this WoWtalk but this doesn't really ring true for me, I did recently try WoW for about a month and while I only played hunter and druid neither seemed to have "a lot more complex class mechanics" than anything in FFXIV. I can't speak to encounter design too much, but the class design wasn't anything radically different. I mean the red mage is all about reacting to procs/a not-strict rotation depending on the status of your black/white gauge and it's considered one of the simpler FFXIV classes. Even as summoner with a stricter rotation based around timers you're going to want to drop Ruin IIIs for Ruin IVs reactively when they proc so you don't "waste" procs (at least currently, the stacking of Further Ruin procs in Shadowbringers may change this), as Ruin IV is significantly higher in potency.
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Jun 13, 2019 22:13
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funkymonks posted:Like I said of course you can adjust but it doesn't make it not feel bad. Just because you've acclimated to something due to playing on servers across an ocean doesn't make the experience good. Of course it sucked and I later migrated, but it was because of the feedback delay, going from 210 to 70 didn't change how I moved out of AoE or whether I was being hit, aoe timers aren't that tight.
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Jun 13, 2019 22:17
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WoW encounters experiment more but at the same time are weirdly conservative too, since there's limited battle res. FFXIV is more than happy to have complex and lethal boss abilities since you can revive people mid-fight and they can still participate and see the rest of the fight, even if stack AOEs and DPS checks still provide hard failure conditions.
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Jun 13, 2019 22:18
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WoW's biggest advantage is that movement is handled clientside so it feels a whole hell of a lot smooth. Everything else...depends on the expansion for WoW since classes yoyo between interesting and stupid as hell. Like take Sub rogue, in Legion your gameplay was building up for a big weapon skill on a 30s cooldown, making sure your buffs aligned so you'd hit for massive damage. This is actually fairly comparable to say RDM, where your moment to moment gameplay is building up to this big awesome finisher and then you do it again. In BFA....you spam your one builder and your finisher really fast.  It's brainless now and I hated it. Though my experience was quitting WoW at the end of MoP, never looking at it again until Legion won me back with it's artifact weapon, since the concept resonated so strongly with me. I loved having a big powerful weapon that you keep with you and help grow the entire expansion. It's basically relic weapons done right, as it's mainline content, you get it super early, and it's not as grindy as relics, it was more the focus of just normal gameplay. BFA simplified my class, and since class switching would mean I'd need an entirely new character, once I got bored I just quit instead of suffer. XIV is incredibly consistent in what it is and what it does. The only area of content where it suffers compared to WoW are just the spectacle of large raids that you do with a guild and overworld content, at least for me. 24 mans never quit did it for me since there's no progression on them. Or there is but it's every time you run the drat thing instead of people learning and you clearing it easily.  XIV has that solid release schedule, clear methods of gear acquisition, it always has a penultimate weapon to forge even if it's torturous, no need for alts (easily the best thing ever), and it's unmatched in the looks department. Also, while I still care for the WoW story as it's been a part of my nerdom forever, ShB is finally going into an area where I feel that same excitement for XIV's story. XIV's story has always been something where I'm like, it's well done but didn't really resonate on an emotional level, but I'm very hype for the story this expac.
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Jun 13, 2019 22:26
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the best thing wow combat has over ffxiv is that movement abilities actually work how a person who has ever played any video game ever would assume, in that it moves your hitbox along with the animation. meanwhile ffxiv teleports your avatar to a million simultaneous timelines and realities where you exist in all locations at once until the animation completes.
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Jun 13, 2019 22:27
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Eimi posted:WoW's biggest advantage is that movement is handled clientside so it feels a whole hell of a lot smooth. It's not different from XIV, basic movement is client side, speed increase and special movement get validated first in both games.
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Jun 13, 2019 22:29
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Countblanc posted:meanwhile ffxiv teleports your avatar to a million simultaneous timelines and realities where you exist in all locations at once until the animation completes.
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Jun 13, 2019 22:53
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DizzyBum posted:I sometimes worry I'm in some sort of "FFXIV bubble" because I enjoy the game so much
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Jun 13, 2019 23:01
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FactsAreUseless posted:I've tried a few MMOs because I like FFXIV so much, and the only one I've found that was worth taking a break to play was Elder Scrolls Online. It's honestly quite good and so different from FFXIV that you don't feel burned out on MMOs. The worst one was probably Neverwinter, but World of Warcraft honestly lost my interest really fast. DC Universe also would have sucked but I didn't have the patience for their terrible download speed. Black Desert had a solid combat system but the MMO elements were confusing and pointless, and I think it really needed to just be a Diablo-style action RPG. ESO is really fun if you just play it like a single-player game.
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Jun 13, 2019 23:10
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Propagandist posted:ESO is really fun if you just play it like a single-player game.
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Jun 13, 2019 23:12
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Philonius posted:That's the one quirk you need to get used to in this game. Getting hit by an AOE is determined by standing in the marker when the cast goes off. The animation is (usually) meaningless in terms of mechanics, and in fact once the orange marker has disappeared you're perfectly safe to stand in the nuclear explosion that follows. This isn't entirely true, some AOE attacks do multiple hits if you're standing in them even if you dodged the initial cast bar.
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Jun 13, 2019 23:15
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Impermanent posted:the thing that's confusing is that there's usually a delay between the big warning orange aoe disappearing in sync with the castbar completing --> the AoE damage blast. The AoE damage blast feels like that's when you should have to have moved out by, but its wrong. It's the castbar completing/AoE depletion thing. Yes, this is weird and feels bad. But it is also the way that it is. The game is also just slow to update your positioning. Even understanding that spells are resolved the instant the cast finishes and at the very start/before the actual animation, it's routine to be hit by things you've dodged on your screen with time to spare. Everyone learns to dodge with even more time to spare. It's a hell of a lot better than it was in ARR (for a lot of people largely thanks to the server move, but also they did some upgrades at some point to how the server determines your position) but it's still glacial compared to WoW. Magil Zeal posted:I'm trying not to add too much to this WoWtalk but this doesn't really ring true for me, I did recently try WoW for about a month and while I only played hunter and druid neither seemed to have "a lot more complex class mechanics" than anything in FFXIV. I can't speak to encounter design too much, but the class design wasn't anything radically different. I mean the red mage is all about reacting to procs/a not-strict rotation depending on the status of your black/white gauge and it's considered one of the simpler FFXIV classes. Even as summoner with a stricter rotation based around timers you're going to want to drop Ruin IIIs for Ruin IVs reactively when they proc so you don't "waste" procs (at least currently, the stacking of Further Ruin procs in Shadowbringers may change this), as Ruin IV is significantly higher in potency. 14 has been moving to a more often relevant priority system and more reactionary decision making since the 2.0 launch but it's still far more rigid in both class mechanics and encounter design. It remains major difference in gameplay. I would also say bard is the most alike due to the number of spinning plates to manage and different procs.
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Jun 13, 2019 23:16
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Kwyndig posted:This isn't entirely true, some AOE attacks do multiple hits if you're standing in them even if you dodged the initial cast bar. can you give me an example? i genuinely can't recall any orange AOE having an additional non-telegraphed follow-up hit, but i also have an awful memory and havent done the full content the game has to offer
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Jun 13, 2019 23:16
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merry_trootsmas posted:can you give me an example? i genuinely can't recall any orange AOE having an additional non-telegraphed follow-up hit, but i also have an awful memory and havent done the full content the game has to offer Flamethrower attack from one of the bosses in Keeper of the Lake, off the top of my head.
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Jun 13, 2019 23:18
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merry_trootsmas posted:can you give me an example? i genuinely can't recall any orange AOE having an additional non-telegraphed follow-up hit, but i also have an awful memory and havent done the full content the game has to offer The only ones that immediately spring to mind are Akh Morn-style attacks, but they're fairly rare.
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Jun 13, 2019 23:18
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Keeper of the Lake second boss does a Flamethrower attack with an orange cone and cast, if you stand in the flames, you will get burnt. e:fb
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Jun 13, 2019 23:19
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A8 has an attack like that too.
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Jun 13, 2019 23:23
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oh heck that's correct, i completely forgot! But I was thinking more of akh-morn like attacks where it is a bunch of single, "discrete" attacks, while the flamethrower is more of a continuous damage dealer, but you're right
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Jun 13, 2019 23:23
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Second boss of ghimlyt dark's fire laser thing, the lingering fire will still kill you if you run back in. They're exceptions though. e: oh i dont think that one has a ground marker now that i think of it
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Jun 13, 2019 23:24
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Kwyndig posted:Keeper of the Lake second boss does a Flamethrower attack with an orange cone and cast, if you stand in the flames, you will get burnt. The Gunship's Flamethrower attack was probably a compromise due to not having time to do up an entirely new effect. In general, telegraph markers are supposed to only display when an attack is about to hit, rather than when an attack is hitting, or else you risk creating a confusing visual vocabulary. You see persistent damage fields with better boundary indicators on later bosses like the Scorpion Tank.
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Jun 13, 2019 23:24
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FactsAreUseless posted:I've tried a few MMOs because I like FFXIV so much, and the only one I've found that was worth taking a break to play was Elder Scrolls Online. It's honestly quite good and so different from FFXIV that you don't feel burned out on MMOs. The worst one was probably Neverwinter, but World of Warcraft honestly lost my interest really fast. DC Universe also would have sucked but I didn't have the patience for their terrible download speed. Black Desert had a solid combat system but the MMO elements were confusing and pointless, and I think it really needed to just be a Diablo-style action RPG. Neverwinter is a lootbox engine that happens to have a game attached, I played on and off for a while but they lost me for good after the whole Dragonborn thing.
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Jun 13, 2019 23:25
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Kurieg posted:Neverwinter is a lootbox engine that happens to have a game attached, I played on and off for a while but they lost me for good after the whole Dragonborn thing.
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Jun 13, 2019 23:26
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Posting this here on the off-chance anyone is as dumb as I was and got a SHB pre-order for the wrong region - https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3891857
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Jun 13, 2019 23:29
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I had fun making joke campaigns in the watered-down version of the NWN toolkit Neverwinter had but then they got rid of it (it might be back again at this point?)
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Jun 13, 2019 23:31
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Impermanent posted:plenty of the DPS damage classes have highly reactive play, and in fact most of the newer ones trend towards that. The 'classic' ffxiv inflexible rotations are really only the DRG, maybe SMN, and I guess NIN and MNK? BLM kinda has one but its more like your 'baseline' while you're using your other buttons to dodge or tank aoes and feel like an insane wizard badass. RDM is highly proc-based and is about management of multiple meters. BRD is completely reactive plate-spinning. SAM is very flexible based on what your needs are. So melee is a little more inflexible but they are also contending with the need to avoid damage in a boss's face. FWIW, current Stormblood MCH is a rigid inflexible rotation like DRG, but ranged.
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Jun 13, 2019 23:31
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What are we expecting in tomorrow's live letter? Is it crafting/gathering changes or something else? I hope we can get confirmation on whether or not we're getting a new housing district too. EDIT: Oh, uh... Thrall Sylvanas Garrosh Tyrande something, something, for the Horde.
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Jun 13, 2019 23:34
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CYBEReris posted:I had fun making joke campaigns in the watered-down version of the NWN toolkit Neverwinter had but then they got rid of it (it might be back again at this point?)
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Jun 13, 2019 23:39
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Cryptic has like three active staff members and the one who actually made and maintained the mission creation thing left and nobody who's still there knows how to update or maintain it, so they just stripped it out. 
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Jun 13, 2019 23:42
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I have to say I *really* like the "targets are locked in when the aoe marker disappears/cast bar ends" thing. It's unintuitive, but my dumb self had it figured out by level 15 dodging those overpowering enemies on middle la noscea, trying to find out why I keep getting hit. It's very obvious if you take a minute and pay attention to it imo. On the other hand, you gain a *fuckton* of confidence of when enemy skills are gonna murder you because it's incredibly exact, because the attack animations being elaborate pieces of trash fire that can often be completely impossible to read. I'm glad they sacrificed a tiny bit of intuitiveness for a ton of extra verbosity. They also trust the client to a pretty big degree on "where were you when the aoe locked in". I played on west coast servers for a few weeks from eastern europe, and when the connection was stable I could still dodge titan EX bullshit fine. In an action RPG, you can't get away with this kind of bullshit at all. Every attack needs to be straightforward, so you can read when to dodge. In a game like FF14 where the spectacle is often at least 50% of the enjoyment of even the harder fights and obvious telegraphs and cast bars exist, I rather have the stupidity of dying to something when I'm on the other side of the arena now, but keep those silly animations.
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Jun 13, 2019 23:42
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Ibblebibble posted:FWIW, current Stormblood MCH is a rigid inflexible rotation like DRG, but ranged. It’s a tragedy, because HW MCH was by far the most flexible class in that era of the game, with so many good little oGCD interactions that let you just pull so much poo poo off on the fly. Alas, it was also by multiple orders of magnitude the hardest to come to grips with, to the point where bad MCHs were getting the class kicked on sight. It had to die so the plebs could get their gun fantasy on too, because having a class less then 2% of the player base bothered to get to max level was bad design in the long run. And then we got Stormblood’s leavings which they molded into what they called a Machinist.
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Jun 13, 2019 23:43
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i'm gonna miss stormblood mch new mch might be good, who knows; i have some hesitations about it but the new animations look dope at least rest in peace, the only dps class i took seriously
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Jun 13, 2019 23:54
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CYBEReris posted:I had fun making joke campaigns in the watered-down version of the NWN toolkit Neverwinter had but then they got rid of it (it might be back again at this point?) The only reason I played Neverwinter for as long as I did was because of that. The dungeons were laughably dull and the world itself was stupidly out together but I will always have fond memories of Yes, A Kobold Dungeon Master.
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Jun 13, 2019 23:58
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DizzyBum posted:Where did they move Primal to, again? I'm on the east coast and my latency didn't change at all after the move. Montreal to Sacramento.
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Jun 14, 2019 00:34
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Mr. Locke posted:It’s a tragedy, because HW MCH was by far the most flexible class in that era of the game, with so many good little oGCD interactions that let you just pull so much poo poo off on the fly. Alas, it was also by multiple orders of magnitude the hardest to come to grips with, to the point where bad MCHs were getting the class kicked on sight. It had to die so the plebs could get their gun fantasy on too, because having a class less then 2% of the player base bothered to get to max level was bad design in the long run. Amusingly I feel the same way as you but for SB MCH. I love the rigid playstyle and whilst ShB MCH looks fun for more people it really isn't for me.
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Jun 14, 2019 00:35
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Shy posted:It's not different from XIV, basic movement is client side, speed increase and special movement get validated first in both games. Yeah I was going to say, this isnt 1.0 where everything, including opening a map, had to be verified by the server because the client had 0 trust.
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Jun 14, 2019 00:37
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I've played WoW off and on since 2005. Just finished ARR Hildibrand and that was a better story arc than anything WoW has ever had. I do mean that seriously, but to make a larger point, WoW's story and characters feel largely disposable and inconsistent, whereas FF14 does a way better job with story arcs across every single piece of the game.
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Jun 14, 2019 00:49
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Xalidur posted:I've played WoW off and on since 2005. Just finished ARR Hildibrand and that was a better story arc than anything WoW has ever had. I legit liked WoW's story when it was a sequel to Warcraft 3. The horde forging a new homeland in a harsh area, mostly with conflict with the natives. Repairing the alliance and the aftermath of a corrupt government in the absence of the king. The defias plot, up through Prestor and Onyxia was cool, the northern kingdom's and Alterac, sprinkles of the lovecraftian old gods. Eh, tbc was mostly loving stupid, but fun at least. WotLK was back to form though. For the most part they were short narratives interspersed between bear asses, but there was a story. Then it became a sequel to WoW and got so high huffing its own farts that I had to check out.
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Jun 14, 2019 01:00
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What ultimately got me to switch was that FFXIV had more interest in telling a cohesive story, and I'd begun to feel that WoW's design was becoming increasingly more cynical with even more treadmills and treadmills to run on to get to those treadmills.
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Jun 14, 2019 02:27
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The thing with WoW is that it was the first and still the main MMO that does everything fairly well. PvE, PVP, collecting, world environment, etc. A lot of MMOs do one or two of those things as well, if not better, than WoW but not all in one package. A lot of distaste for WoW right now comes from a ton of A-B's bullheaded decisions and overall corporate rehaul. They don't seem to want to budge on the story and in some cases seem outright hostile to their fanbase. A lot of the foundations of the game are there and can work well if they'd just tweak some things, but it's hard to support a company like Blizz in the current environment. FFXIV isn't perfect, but it does a lot of the same things WoW does on about the same level. Given the current distaste of WoW's story, having the FF MSQ as the primary focus for new players tends to be really welcome. Also the fact that Yoship is very honest about his decisions and interacts/cares deeply for his players is a breath of fresh air. I know a few players from WRA that were kind of on the fence about jumping to FFXIV, but after seeing how Yoship treats his fans, they made the decision to give it a shot. It's much more fun to follow someone you enjoy personally. I like both at different points of their lives, but FFXIV is just too good right now for me to go back to WoW's current state. I want A-B to pull their heads' out of their asses, but I think BFA will be a wash for me. Which is sad after spending so much time and money over it for 15 years, but it's not like FF isn't a huge franchise with lots of nostalgia, too. Axel Serenity fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Jun 14, 2019 |
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Jun 14, 2019 02:29
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