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punk rebel ecks posted:People do the same poo poo with Cuba all the time holding the nation up as some type utopia despite tens of thousand of people traveling over 200 miles on make shift rafts on the endless ocean to leave the country. Yeah but then you talk to Miami Cubans and you realise exactly the type of people who would make that journey. Complete fascists.
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Jun 16, 2019 03:57
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Yeah but then you talk to Miami Cubans and you realise exactly the type of people who would make that journey. Complete fascists. yes. all those people were risking death crossing the ocean to do fascism in miami. gently caress you.
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Jun 16, 2019 04:16
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Miami, notable hub of fascist politics in America.
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Jun 16, 2019 04:19
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ASenileAnimal posted:yes. all those people were risking death crossing the ocean to do fascism in miami. gently caress you. No, to do Fascism in Cuba.
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Jun 16, 2019 04:26
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The previous Cuban government literally practiced slavery
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Jun 16, 2019 06:15
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VitalSigns posted:The previous Cuban government literally practiced slavery Literal has a very specific meaning. You'd probably be right if you said "de facto" instead. Anyway Black Cubans are still incredibly marginalized in Cuba, overrepresented among the prison population, typically relegated to poorer neighborhoods, and with little representation in the upper ranks of the civil service, the communist party, and in both older state industries and more recently established private businesses. Castro didn't really do much to solve the issues at heart there.
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Jun 16, 2019 06:40
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Cuba has a government that actually manages to feed it's people and give them medical care. As opposed to Venezuela.
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Jun 16, 2019 06:57
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punk rebel ecks posted:Miami, notable hub of fascist politics in America. The Cuban expat population is known for being right wing, especially the older segments that fled in the 60's.
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Jun 16, 2019 11:39
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I remember a lot of people itt being completely incredulous over the idea of cyber attacks targeting critical infrastructure and particularly the power grid of a country. https://twitter.com/aaronjmate/stat...ingawful.com%2F brugroffil fucked around with this message at 12:57 on Jun 16, 2019 |
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Jun 16, 2019 11:41
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fnox posted:But it seems like those posters are more concerned about trying to seem witty than contemplate reality. I have to admire your tenacity, because any other person would have just said "peace out" and left the thread to whatever circlejerks the posters want to engage in.
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Jun 16, 2019 12:10
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brugroffil posted:I remember a lot of people itt being completely incredulous over the idea of cyber attacks targeting critical infrastructure and particularly the power grid of a company. when america does it is just sending a warning to check aggression and ensure that other nations understand their actions "impose costs" someone doing that to america might be called cyber terrorism but nyt understands the subtleties and legal frameworks at play
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Jun 16, 2019 12:33
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brugroffil posted:I remember a lot of people itt being completely incredulous over the idea of cyber attacks targeting critical infrastructure and particularly the power grid of a country. Lets not forget this is the new york times, frequent source of fake news. This is probably just a piece because of orders from the CIA to try and make the US government look strong. I bet they can't hack poo poo.
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Jun 16, 2019 13:09
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brugroffil posted:I remember a lot of people itt being completely incredulous over the idea of cyber attacks targeting critical infrastructure and particularly the power grid of a country. I’m not incredulous, I’m being realistic. The reason why the power grid in Venezuela doesn’t work and why the power goes out every day has nothing to do with a cyber attack, it has to do with corruption and decades of complete failure to improve and build infrastructure. The Tocoma Dam stands as a multi billion dollar example of what I’m speaking of. The “wind farm” in Falcon that isn’t actually plugged to anything is another. I’m not sure why it’s so hard to believe that something bad can happen without the US being involved, but uh, Venezuela has had regular problems with its power grid since at least 2007.
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Jun 16, 2019 14:08
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brugroffil posted:I remember a lot of people itt being completely incredulous over the idea of cyber attacks targeting critical infrastructure and particularly the power grid of a country. I remember it too. Most people weren't saying "the US can't/doesn't do this", but that it likely wasn't the cause in that specific case.
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Jun 16, 2019 14:26
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Bear Enthusiast posted:I remember it too. Most people weren't saying "the US can't/doesn't do this", but that it likely wasn't the cause in that specific case. no there were people latching on to a former manager saying the plant systems were old and stuff to try to claim it was impossible
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Jun 16, 2019 14:49
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Bear Enthusiast posted:I remember it too. Most people weren't saying "the US can't/doesn't do this", but that it likely wasn't the cause in that specific case. Incorrect. Multiple people laughed at the idea of a cyber attack causing a power outage. When explained to them, they dismissed it as "mission impossible" scenarios. e: more broadly, there were even a few that expressed bafflement at the idea that the US or other foreign actors would even target critical infrastructure for disruption. Which is weird, because it's literally in the CIA playbook. brugroffil fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Jun 16, 2019 |
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Jun 16, 2019 14:54
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Well whoever those posters were certainly didn't know what they were talking about.
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Jun 16, 2019 15:20
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fnox posted:I’m not incredulous, I’m being realistic. The reason why the power grid in Venezuela doesn’t work and why the power goes out every day has nothing to do with a cyber attack, it has to do with corruption and decades of complete failure to improve and build infrastructure. The Tocoma Dam stands as a multi billion dollar example of what I’m speaking of. The “wind farm” in Falcon that isn’t actually plugged to anything is another. Is not possible that the United States of America have been sabotaging Venezuela since 2007?
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Jun 16, 2019 15:35
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Kindest Forums User posted:Is not possible that the United States of America have been sabotaging Venezuela since 2007? It is FAR more likely that the rampant corruption, under funding and brain drain has eroded a system that is maintenance heavy and fragile even under the best of circumstances.
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Jun 16, 2019 15:42
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Kindest Forums User posted:Is not possible that the United States of America have been sabotaging Venezuela since 2007? Did the CIA make government officials steal money away from infrastructure projects? Did the US force ministers, the president, and even some opposition officials like Capriles to take money from Odebrecht? Did DEVGRU operators prevent technicians from being hired to fix turbines at the Guri Dam? Has any of you ever left the United States? The world doesn't revolve around everything America says or does, and there's way more capable evil out there. You're not going to convince me that the US is responsible for everything me, my family and friends went through after personally witnessing the debauchery that PSUV officials engaged in. Is it not possible that Venezuela went to poo poo because of an incompetent, corrupt government, and that they use the US as a scapegoat to distract from their share of the blame? And the reason why they choose to blame the US for everything is because you idiots will believe it no matter what, even in the face of overwhelming evidence of mismanagement? fnox fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Jun 16, 2019 |
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Jun 16, 2019 15:44
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Why can't the United State be responsible for the corruption as well? Are they not capable of paying politicians off, swindling them, backstabbing, offering safe haven. They've done it, like, in pretty much the entirety of the Americas and abroad. What makes you think America would suddenly stop any nefarious attempts at destabilizing Venezuela in the 2000s. Especially since it's one of the last countries in the WORLD that poses a threat to capitalism. Do you think the United States just laid everyone off after they won the cold war?
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Jun 16, 2019 16:18
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fnox posted:Has any of you ever left the United States? The world doesn't revolve around everything America says or does, and there's way more capable evil out there. You're not going to convince me that the US is responsible for everything me, my family and friends went through after personally witnessing the debauchery that PSUV officials engaged in. hmmm. I dunno man. America happens to be the biggest empire in the world. But maybe they forgot about Venezuala, who knows. And I'm not defending the PSUV either. But to suggest that America is not involved in a country they've been involved in for decades is kind of wacky. If you claim that the PSUV is so easily corruptible, then wouldn't the Americans find that as a perfect opportunity to destabilize Venezuela?
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Jun 16, 2019 16:27
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quote:You're not going to convince me that the US is responsible for everything me, my family and friends went through after personally witnessing the debauchery that PSUV officials engaged in. What is this strawman lol; no poo poo the USA isn't responsible for literally every bad thing. quote:Is it not possible that Venezuela went to poo poo because of an incompetent, corrupt government, and that they use the US as a scapegoat to distract from their share of the blame? And the reason why they choose to blame the US for everything is because you idiots will believe it no matter what, even in the face of overwhelming evidence of mismanagement? Yeah it's almost like it is a little from column A and a little from column B. Saying the USA is 100% responsible is as absurd as saying Maduro is 100% responsible. I doubt the power grid is getting hosed on by the CIA or something, that said. brugroffil posted:Incorrect. Multiple people laughed at the idea of a cyber attack causing a power outage. When explained to them, they dismissed it as "mission impossible" scenarios. But also that said yeah, this is what they fuckin' do as a job. Like they didn't gently caress with Iran's power plants not too long ago. ee: BTW the USA is literally running concentration camps on the border so lol if you think they're gonna do anything but be the evil empire that they are Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 17:10 on Jun 16, 2019 |
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Jun 16, 2019 16:52
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Also the Cuban derail was stupid, too. It's almost like people vary and you can't paint them all with the same "From Cuba" brush. Yeah I'm sure some of the people fleeing have legit concerns about how things are arranged in Cuba but at the same time I'm sure there are people in Cuba who are happy that things are much better than they were when capitalist mafiosos ran the country. You can't just point to a couple Cubans and go "ah well see they think X so therefore..." In either case it isn't the USA's responsibility to replace the government of a foreign country. e: Also it's some fuckin 1990s mentality btw because most Cubans coming over since 2000 are just coming to try and get some American Dream, not because of political issues at home quote:Jorge Ferragut, a Cuban immigrant who founded Casa Cuba, an agency that assists Cuban immigrants arriving in Texas, said in a 2008 article that many Cuban immigrants of the first decade of the 21st century left due to economic instead of political issues.[12] Biggest wave of Cuban emigration was after the USSR collapsed and tons of economic aid to Cuba ended. If the USA was trying to achieve the utility function of helping as many Cubans as possible it'd end these idiot rear end sanctions and embargos. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Jun 16, 2019 |
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Jun 16, 2019 16:56
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If there isn't any evidence to what you believe, and there is abundant evidence of the contrary, what that makes you is a conspiracy theorist. I'm not going to engage in hypotheticals and what ifs because the explanation for power shortages is frankly clear cut. There is absolutely no evidence of American sabotage of the power grid, of cyber attacks, and if said evidence actually existed you bet that Maduro would never live it down. To the contrary, there is a stunning amount of evidence of grafting from infrastructure projects, Tocoma was an Odebrecht project, they were tried and found guilty of corruption, and the evidence tying it to Maduro, Capriles and ministers such as Haiman El Troudi is readily available. If you're going to push this, post evidence. Kindest Forums User posted:hmmm. I dunno man. America happens to be the biggest empire in the world. But maybe they forgot about Venezuala, who knows. I'm sorry buddy but what you're proposing is so loving stupid I don't even know how to answer to it. PSUV being an American operation to destabilize Venezuela is a hilarious concept, however. Moridin920 posted:What is this strawman lol; no poo poo the USA isn't responsible for literally every bad thing. This guy is saying otherwise. fnox fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Jun 16, 2019 |
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Jun 16, 2019 17:11
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Kindest Forums User posted:Why can't the United State be responsible for the corruption as well? Are they not capable of paying politicians off, swindling them, backstabbing, offering safe haven. They've done it, like, in pretty much the entirety of the Americas and abroad. It's like every type of information that enters or leaves the mind of a tankie goes through a filter of USA BAD. Not everything revolves around the US, nor does the US have a monopoly on doing bad things or influencing others into doing bad stuff. If you dig a bit in the annals of history, you'll find that people where doing loads of bad stuff before the US even existed. Stop assuming that Venezuelans or the rest of the world is too simple and naive to be corrupt and scheming, it reeks of Noble Savage.
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Jun 16, 2019 17:18
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fnox posted:I'm sorry buddy but what you're proposing is so loving stupid I don't even know how to answer to it. PSUV being an American operation to destabilize Venezuela is a hilarious concept, however. The stupid conclusion that PSUV is an American operation is your own. Your posting style is to draw out frivolous conclusions and project them on the poster. This is strawmaning. Grow up. Fiend fucked around with this message at 17:35 on Jun 16, 2019 |
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Jun 16, 2019 17:20
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brugroffil posted:Incorrect. Multiple people laughed at the idea of a cyber attack causing a power outage. When explained to them, they dismissed it as "mission impossible" scenarios. That is very much not how that conversation went
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Jun 16, 2019 17:23
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It was though. Maduro and his government were being ridiculed as idiots for even suggesting the concept of cyber or physical attacks.
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Jun 16, 2019 17:27
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Kindest Forums User posted:Why can't the United State be responsible for the corruption as well? Are they not capable of paying politicians off, swindling them, backstabbing, offering safe haven. They've done it, like, in pretty much the entirety of the Americas and abroad. Well if you're going to accuse the Bolivarian state apparatus in Venezuela of being a US puppet regime, shouldn't that regime be overthrown?
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Jun 16, 2019 17:29
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brugroffil posted:It was though. Maduro and his government were being ridiculed as idiots for even suggesting the concept of cyber or physical attacks. No, they where ridiculed for drawing up a convoluted Cyberpunk 2020 scenario with EMP and hackers to explain why an already dilapidated and failing power distribution system collapsed.
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Jun 16, 2019 17:32
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It's puppets all the way down.
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Jun 16, 2019 17:33
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fnox posted:
dude, I'm not suggesting the PSUV is an American operation. We don't live in a Tom Clancy novel bud. Just take Alejandro Andrade for example. He's the focus of corruption in the PSUV. He held millions of dollars worth of assets in the United States since 2013!!!!!! Do you think the United States had no clue? That they just woooopsied a high ranking Venezuelan politician from owning American assets bought with illegal cash. At the very least, the United States knew, and let him embezzle his money into the States. Let that poo poo fester and grow. They could have easily exposed him the second he stepped into the United States. But why? He's perfect. Let him destabilize his country. And when the conditions for a coup are opportune, expose him and the PSUV. Like, gently caress dude, I'm not talking about the CIA building a Maduro robot and taking over the country. It really doesn't take much imagination to discover ways an extremely powerful country could influence a vulnerable axis of power. Kindest Forums User fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Jun 16, 2019 |
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Jun 16, 2019 17:33
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Noshtane posted:Stop assuming that Venezuelans or the rest of the world is too simple and naive to be corrupt and scheming, it reeks of Noble Savage. This is so loving stupid considering I started this discussion suggesting that America could be using corruption as a tool to influence and destabilize.
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Jun 16, 2019 17:35
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Kindest Forums User posted:This is so loving stupid considering I started this discussion suggesting that America could be using corruption as a tool to influence and destabilize. This is correct and how I read your post.
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Jun 16, 2019 17:36
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This is the United States Complete Foreign Intervention Playbook according to posters here: • No influence whatsoever • Complete mind control puppet regime
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Jun 16, 2019 17:39
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Noshtane posted:No, they where ridiculed for drawing up a convoluted Cyberpunk 2020 scenario with EMP and hackers to explain why an already dilapidated and failing power distribution system collapsed. Incorrect again. The tone was very much it was an idiot impossible scenario that wouldn't even make sense for foreign agents (or domestic ones too!) to do. Guess what makes a power grid even more susceptible to sabotage? Dilapidation and neglect! Anyway a bunch of idiots couldn't admit they were ignorant then and won't now so it isn't really that important.
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Jun 16, 2019 17:39
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quote not edit.
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Jun 16, 2019 17:40
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brugroffil posted:Incorrect again. The tone was very much it was an idiot impossible scenario that wouldn't even make sense for foreign agents (or domestic ones too!) to do. loving hell. Are the power outages happening because of US intervention, yes or no? Are they cyber attacks, or are they mismanagement? Kindest Forums User posted:dude, I'm not suggesting the PSUV is an American operation. We don't live in a Tom Clancy novel bud. Uhhhhhhhhhh. I'm legitimately not trying to misinterpret anything. I'm struggling to comprehend this tortured logic already. Why would it be the US's fault if someone like Alejandro Andrade steals literal billions through money laundering from the coffers of a country, and then puts it in an American bank account? Isn't the problem there that the PSUV is corrupt and cronyist, and allowed Chavez' bodyguard to run the treasury for some reason? It's not illegal to step into the United States as a Venezuelan official (It is now, for some of them), it's not illegal for them to have money in the US, or properties in the US, it becomes illegal when the origin of the funds is illicit, which is not necessarily easy to prove, thus why it can't happen instantly. It's in bad taste to live like a king in Miami while simultaneously clamoring for the death of America and Marxist revolution now, but that is also not illegal. But I'm not sure at all how this is proof of the US aiding and abetting in corrupt schemes if they're just where the money ended up? This is just evidence of the PSUV being horrendously corrupt, and that they're lying pretty openly about being anti-capitalist and for the struggle of workers, while living like actual bourgeoisie. If this one guy, who's not even that high ranking, stole a billion dollars, who else is involved and how much have they taken? Fiend posted:The stupid conclusion that PSUV is an American operation is your own. Your posting style is to draw out frivolous conclusions and project them on the poster. Hah. Pinochet.
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Jun 16, 2019 18:09
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brugroffil posted:The Cuban expat population is known for being right wing, especially the older segments that fled in the 60's. But fascist? That's a huge reach.
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Jun 16, 2019 18:10
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