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I have a huge soft spot for season 3 and Ralph's story line since this was the first season of the show I was able to watch. (I think University was my first episode) His character antics in s3 are so fantastic and im glad they didn't just turn him into a Richie v2.0 style villain (although I think they absolutely ruined his character in s4 as a result). His scenes with Johnny Sack are great. Even if Johnny is just doing whats ultimately best for himself financially in keeping the Esplanade figurehead happy and alive he does seem to genuinely like Ralph on some level. At least compared to his "Friendship" with Paulie later where he is strictly using him for information and just 100% blowing smoke up his rear end. I always thought if things were rewound and James Gandalfini for some reason couldn't play Tony that Joe Pantoliano would have been a great choice to replace him. What a gem of an actor.
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Jun 14, 2019 04:00
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He's definitely an underrated actor. He was real good in Memento which is an excellent film It was funny when they revealed his wig while dealing with his corpse. They do the little details in this show so well. Another great thing is that I swear this show could be a comedy or a drama it's almost 50 50 whether im laughing or tense while watching. denzelcurrypower fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Jun 14, 2019 |
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Jun 14, 2019 04:25
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Hell, the scene where the cops are interrogating the pizza guys could have straight up been out of a Police Squad episode.
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Jun 14, 2019 06:14
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Solice Kirsk posted:Hell, the scene where the cops are interrogating the pizza guys could have straight up been out of a Police Squad episode. "Technically sir, you're an accessory after the fact"
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Jun 14, 2019 06:48
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One of the funniest moments in Season 3 that always had me in stitches is the Paulie/Ralphie sit down at the pier with the coffee shop. Tony barely keeping his poo poo together and Ralphie antagonizing the poo poo out of Paulie. "I can be late today but you'll be stupid forever. "I don't believe this!" "Why not? Last year you believed there was a flying saucer over East Rotherford!" Joey Pants is great.
Grindcore ASMR fucked around with this message at 06:56 on Jun 14, 2019 |
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Jun 14, 2019 06:54
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I think Tony's original intention for getting into therapy was exactly as was stated: he wanted her to "fix" whatever was causing his collapses and just like Carmela he assumed if he threw money at a specialist that would buy him back to normal without having to actually do anything. Of course he immediately discovers it is actually more complicated than that (which he resents) but he grows to enjoy getting to vent or unload onto another human being without having to worry about any repercussions (from her). As others mentioned, it's a way to bitch about his mother, to admit his infidelities, to bemoan the problems with his crew etc, all to a completely safe person. Melfi's role is filled by Intintola for Carmela, and both Tony and Carmela have an undercurrent of inappropriate sexual tension with their confessional outlets because they're able to project onto what are essentially blank slates. Forgetting the complications that arise on Melfi's own end from her sometimes trangressive behavior, Tony does adjust to think of his therapy as helping him become a more effective leader as opposed to a way to fix his panic attacks. But that's a symptom of his desire to be superior to everyone. His initial fears about exposure make way and at times he almost brags about being in therapy or considers it a badge of honor that he's more enlightened or open than the idiots around him. He thinks he has insight that others don't, and his mishandling of this Ralphie situation I think sums up pretty well how what he thinks is him completely routing Ralphie with his surface level reading of Sun Tzu, actually setting up more unnecessary tension down the road because his therapy hasn't even helped to control his short-term desires. By the end I think therapy has just become something he does, it's an outlet for him but he's now doing it just to do it as opposed to any of his original intentions. The moment that outlet is gone he tries to fill immediately with alternatives/substitutes. He did that with Hesh in season 2 during his brief run without Melfi as a therapist, he does it again once she breaks things off with him completely. He needs therapy, but he doesn't engage with it properly or allow it to help him any further than is of any immediate advantage to himself. Solice Kirsk posted:Hell, the scene where the cops are interrogating the pizza guys could have straight up been out of a Police Squad episode. I love that scene so much, I keep waiting for the Dragnet theme to kick in as they uncover the truth behind the pizza 
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Jun 14, 2019 12:46
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pentyne posted:"Technically sir, you're an accessory after the fact" "My pizza never hurt-a nobody!" Now that I think about it that whole scene is kinda Police Squad (or Brooklyn 99 if you're young).
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Jun 14, 2019 12:51
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Ornithology posted:Another great thing is that I swear this show could be a comedy or a drama it's almost 50 50 whether im laughing or tense while watching. Yea someone in another thread said they thought certain other HBO shows were superior to Sopranos because "in the Sopranos they're all cartoon characters", and I kinda understood what they meant but at the same time I think of that as a strength of the show, not a weakness. The ridiculous characters and comedic moments really are the thing(aside from Gandolfini) that keep me coming back to rewatch it every few years.
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Jun 14, 2019 14:57
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BiggerBoat posted:Jerusalem is doing all the heavy lifting here but I'm really grateful for it. Really cool to read these recaps. You should really compile these into a book or something. I'd be interested to hear some of the examples you'd list. I tend to agree with the show's hypothesis that what Tony got out of therapy was becoming a more effective gangster, and while I waffle about whether Tony is a true sociopath I do think there's more evidence for than against it. Empathy, sympathy, self-realization, forgiveness, and a capacity for guilt and shame would all make Tony's job as a criminal harder... but it's difficult to identify moments where Tony demonstrates any of these things in any real capacity. For example I'm struggling to come up with a time where Tony feels genuine guilt for something, usually if he does express guilt it's along the lines of "look what you made me do." When Tony feels bad about something it's usually because his image of himself as a good or at least fair person is threatened, even with his family he seems more motivated by having his family think well enough of him rather than any specific concern for them as individuals. Tony may have become more self-aware and sensitive through therapy but through the show this mostly manifests in him becoming less impulsive and more strategic in his criminal dealings, which I would argue made him more effective as the series went forward. There are times where you can see him stop and think about something and change course mid-conversation, I've always seen this as a byproduct of his therapy sessions. Then I think there's also an element of stress release through therapy, whatever residual guilt Tony has about his actions is diffused by talking to Melfi and he can usually come away with some justification for his actions. In some ways Melfi validates him just by listening, even if it's unlikely she would have stuck around so long if she ever knew or understood the full extent of his criminal life. Tony originally starts therapy for panic attacks which is essentially a proxy for being a more effective mobster, since mob bosses are not supposed to have panic attacks. Looked at that way he absolutely got what he was looking for from Melfi. At no point did I ever get the impression Tony Soprano wanted to change or be a good person, even if he superficially appears to at points in the series.
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Jun 14, 2019 17:14
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Jerusalem posted:But nevermind that, because here's one of the most amazing scenes the show has ever done. It features Mr. Arthur, the resolute citizen from the start of the episode. I won't bother describing the scene because words simply don't do it justice: But this - "you can see what the director intends for yourself" - is not very helpful. I can get some things from the acting, but none of the props or wardrobe choices mean anything.
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Jun 14, 2019 17:37
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Xander77 posted:I'm as immersed in American pop-culture as the next absolute nerd, but there are always certain details that are clear to Americans but don't necessarily feature heavily in exported media. Reading these recaps helps me pick up on a lot of details I missed. These people are portrayed as pretentious upper-crust academics, sitting in an apartment with the OED open on a pedestal, listening to atonal piano garbage, and enjoying a nice light read of Anarchy, State and Utopia. But their furniture and clothing are middle-class, so they are clearly only aspirational upper-crusters, and adopting a lot of affectations to seem urbane and cultured. But as soon as they realize they hosed with Tony Soprano, all the airs go out of them and they become a couple of screaming idiots.
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Jun 14, 2019 18:42
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That "on the fridge! The fridge!!" Is so perfectly desperate while also being so domestic and common. Also the shouting across the house, that just feels very "common man" to me. It contrasts so well with the hoity toity features you mentioned. Great scene.
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Jun 14, 2019 20:30
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Ishamael posted:These people are portrayed as pretentious upper-crust academics, sitting in an apartment with the OED open on a pedestal, listening to atonal piano garbage, and enjoying a nice light read of Anarchy, State and Utopia. But their furniture and clothing are middle-class, so they are clearly only aspirational upper-crusters, and adopting a lot of affectations to seem urbane and cultured. And they only did the Right Thing until they realized that it could inconvenience them (admittedly to the point of death).
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Jun 14, 2019 20:57
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Zaphod42 posted:I really like that moment with Johnny Sack going "hey, what about capo?" and Ralphie goes "no, no way" Except when it's about Ginny Sack's fat rear end I can't wait for that ep writeup!
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Jun 15, 2019 01:17
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The Ninth Layer posted:I'd be interested to hear some of the examples you'd list. His reaction to the death of the horse, his sympathy for Tracey and the entire way he dealt with Ralph. Constantly giving Chris do overs and second chances. The way that it took him forever to realize Pussy was a rat. Forgiving his Uncle. The Artie suicide attempt/exchange/aftermath. Constantly cleaning up after Janice. His soft spot for his cousin (Buscemi). Sleeping too much due to the medication. I have more. ANY breakthroughs he had via therapy made him LESS good at his job. The two simply can't coincide.
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Jun 15, 2019 03:07
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whether or not therapy makes tony an effective boss is irrelevant hes running game on melfi and each an every time she calls him out on it he storms out hes a sociopath
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Jun 15, 2019 05:51
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Food Boner posted:whether or not therapy makes tony an effective boss is irrelevant he's an rear end in a top hat and a manchild ralphie is a sociopath
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Jun 15, 2019 06:50
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Food Boner posted:whether or not therapy makes tony an effective boss is irrelevant It’s not an effective game as it doesn’t really accomplish much.
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Jun 15, 2019 15:13
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Food Boner posted:whether or not therapy makes tony an effective boss is irrelevant I'm arguing that it notably makes him less effective. edit: And I think it's very relevant since "Mob Boss Walks Into a Psychiatrist's Office" is the fundamental premise of the show. BiggerBoat fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Jun 15, 2019 |
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Jun 15, 2019 16:20
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BiggerBoat posted:I'm arguing that it notably makes him less effective. Yeah, he's clearly been able to repress things better before Melfi.
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Jun 15, 2019 17:01
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Dawgstar posted:Yeah, he's clearly been able to repress things better before Melfi. He's kind of like a person who wants to lose weight without dieting or exercising. His repression partly led to the panic attacks and all he wanted was for that specific symptom to go away without ever addressing the underlying cause or doing any real work on it. And on the rare occasions when he did try a little, it directly hosed up his job performance. Like most things, he saw his therapy mostly in financial terms (he talks about it being a "scam" and a "shakedown" quite often) and he laments its relative ineffectiveness throughout the series without ever acknowledging that his deceitful, half hearted approach to it can never produce any gains or real breakthroughs. He basically thought he could throw money at it and it would fix it, like the way he dealt with most issues, really.
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Jun 15, 2019 17:31
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BiggerBoat posted:He's kind of like a person who wants to lose weight without dieting or exercising. It reminds me of the season 2 episode where AJ's reading Nietzsche. Meadow asks Tony and Carmela if they think education is only about making more money, which, of course, they do.
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Jun 15, 2019 18:23
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tony *thinks* his game is working he *thinks* reading sun tzu is helping he *thinks* his therapy is helping his anxiety /its not /it doesnt /maybe its just the drugs evening him out
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Jun 15, 2019 22:30
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The North Tower posted:It reminds me of the season 2 episode where AJ's reading Nietzsche. Meadow asks Tony and Carmela if they think education is only about making more money, which, of course, they do. See also: Carmela's steadfast insistence that they bribe Meadow's college. I like her character and get why she's a victim but she's also as complicit in all of the misdeeds and problems as anyone that's presented as a villain. There are several times I felt sympathy for her and the show is remarkable that way across several characters. It's one of the main things I like about it. For instance, I like Chris and can empathize with his addiction struggles and failed aspirations but when he beats the Christ out of Ade and calls her "damaged goods" I am repulsed. In a lot of ways, almost every character seems trapped - and I think almost anyone can relate to that - but also most of them are shown to be worthy of empathy. Eugene wanted to bail but nope. Gigi, Ade, Paulie, Sil, Artie, Pussy, Vito...even Melfi. Tony, AJ...no one can escape or find happiness and contentment. Everyone seems trapped to me, in spite of the implicit concept that making money leads to more freedom. Who used their freedom to do anything? Finn? Noah? Both Meadow's pre mobster boyfriends, interestingly enough. Maybe Angie who made the best of it.
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Jun 16, 2019 01:03
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I think the therapy sessions also helped Tony see the forest from the trees, in that he had no clue where his panic attacks/black outs were coming from, which scared the poo poo out of him. Then of course through therapy, he's able to remember that oh yeah, he blacked out when he was a kid too, and it also turned out his dad suffered from the same affliction (not to mention uncle hercule). If anything, it prepared him for when AJ started having his own panic attacks.
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Jun 16, 2019 03:51
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which was the great uncle or whoever that drove the donkey cart off the cliff cause the soprano curse?
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Jun 16, 2019 05:33
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Food Boner posted:which was the great uncle or whoever that drove the donkey cart off the cliff cause the soprano curse? Great-grandfather.
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Jun 16, 2019 13:06
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Just re-watched the episode where Tony kills Christopher and I was a bit dissapointed. Besides that major plot point and a few scenes showing how out of touch Tony is (like when he asks Carmella if she felt relieved), the rest of the episode felt a bit irrelevant with regard to him going to Vegas. I'm not sure the point of his gambling and doing peyote. Except maybe just to sleep with one of Christopher's women to get payback for him banging real estate lady but that felt like a lot of screen time devoted to a small petty action. I never really felt that the show adequately explained Tony's motivations for suddenly becoming a gambling addict. It's not like his life was lacking excitement. Anyone have takes on what the purpose of these plot points were or why Tony suddenly can't manage his money reasonably all of a sudden? It kinda felt like a forced, out of character plot development to bring animosity between Tony and Hesh due to his gambling debts, but maybe I'm missing something. Obviously he did the horse race betting in earlier seasons but that felt more motivated by love for the animal than a need to gamble his money. After all, he bets on his horse and I don't think we don't see him at the track again after it dies in the fire. denzelcurrypower fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Jun 17, 2019 |
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Jun 17, 2019 04:08
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Ornithology posted:
Someone up thread made this same point and I'm not saying it's not valid, but anecdotally I have a friend whose brother died young and they were very close. My friend was a pretty straight laced guy, good job, etc and when his brother died he got addicted to pills and started losing poo poo tons of money gambling on sports (he never even watched sports prior to this). Luckily he turned poo poo around but for a while he was like a different person. FLIPADELPHIA fucked around with this message at 07:25 on Jun 17, 2019 |
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Jun 17, 2019 07:09
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I don't know if I'd really call him an addict? He slips up and gambles more than he should but he's an arrogant powerful guy, it seems pretty in character for me to have his hubris get the best of him in Vegas. I need to re-watch that episode though.
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Jun 17, 2019 07:21
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There's a series of episodes of him spending money he doesn't have, continuing to gamble despite losing, taking out loans to gamble, and not quitting while he's ahead. He even tries to convince Carmella to gamble her spec house money. So while it's short lived it seems unhealthy at the least, I guess you could call it a gambling binge rather than addiction but either way it felt out of character. And the excessive gambling started before Chris died so I don't buy that as motivation for his actions. I don't think Tony really cared about Chris dying or felt much guilt about it. He was pretty happy and relieved, even to the point where he thought Carmella would be too. At that point Chris was already dead to him due to the revenge fantasy movie, their relationship being damaged due to Ade, Chris loving Tony's wannabe goomah, and Chris' drug addiction problems distancing him from the crew and causing him to make bad decisions. denzelcurrypower fucked around with this message at 07:46 on Jun 17, 2019 |
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Jun 17, 2019 07:39
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No, Tony suddenly being all about gambling and being the one, as he once said of Carmella, "spending like we're the Sopranos of Park Avenue" did feel like it came out of nowhere. I believe it was one of those things that might have been better developed if it hadn't come around the time of the writer's strike.
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Jun 17, 2019 11:48
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I do like the added touch of showing Tony focusing on that tree branch going through where the kid would've been. It shows how Tony's mind is working at that moment, that he's figured out a way to justify doing this thing that he really wants to do for petty selfish reasons. His mind does those kind of mental gymnastics the entire series.
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Jun 17, 2019 14:18
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Ornithology posted:Just re-watched the episode where Tony kills Christopher and I was a bit dissapointed. Besides that major plot point and a few scenes showing how out of touch Tony is (like when he asks Carmella if she felt relieved), the rest of the episode felt a bit irrelevant with regard to him going to Vegas. I'm not sure the point of his gambling and doing peyote. Except maybe just to sleep with one of Christopher's women to get payback for him banging real estate lady but that felt like a lot of screen time devoted to a small petty action. The episode where suddenly he is addicted to gambling and hiding money from Hesh is the low point of the series, I think. For a show that was so careful about its character work, to have something pop up for one episode just to help the plot was very out of line for this show. And IIRC the B-plot of that episode was the awful thing with Vito's son making GBS threads on the floor. So I think that's a lock for worst episode.
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Jun 17, 2019 14:18
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Ishamael posted:The episode where suddenly he is addicted to gambling and hiding money from Hesh is the low point of the series, I think. For a show that was so careful about its character work, to have something pop up for one episode just to help the plot was very out of line for this show. And IIRC the B-plot of that episode was the awful thing with Vito's son making GBS threads on the floor. So I think that's a lock for worst episode. I always forget about the Vito's kid thing (beyond the "You look like a Puerto Rican hooer" line). Ugh.
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Jun 17, 2019 14:47
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Ornithology posted:Just re-watched the episode where Tony kills Christopher and I was a bit dissapointed. Besides that major plot point and a few scenes showing how out of touch Tony is (like when he asks Carmella if she felt relieved), the rest of the episode felt a bit irrelevant with regard to him going to Vegas. I'm not sure the point of his gambling and doing peyote. Except maybe just to sleep with one of Christopher's women to get payback for him banging real estate lady but that felt like a lot of screen time devoted to a small petty action. I really like "Kennedy & Heidi" because it feels like Matthew Weiner's working out the ideas of Mad Men in miniature in that episode. A man who has everything is given exactly what he wants, seizing an opportunity to take care of a persistent issue he thinks is the impediment to his happiness, only to learn that at his core he's still miserable. (A lot of Weiner's scripts, especially toward the end of the series, feel tonally akin to what he went on to do with Mad Men; outside of the gang war stuff it's a lot of melancholy people going through the motions of life.) Dawgstar posted:I always forget about the Vito's kid thing (beyond the "You look like a Puerto Rican hooer" line). Ugh. Same. That episode is some definite, unambiguous wheel-spinning. "Alright, we've got the final 4 episode stretch planned out, but we gotta do 5 more for the network. We got the Johnny Sack death episode, who are some other characters we haven't seen in a while we should wrap up? Hesh? People like Hesh, right? Should we put a tag on the whole Vito thing?"
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Jun 17, 2019 15:12
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I'm not sure Tony is completely without empathy. He does seem to love his kids, and I always got the feeling that was genuine. Of course it's not without strings attached. He wants to love his kids but he wants that to be exactly on his own terms which causes tension throughout the series. I also think he loved Chris, though it wasn't enough to save Chris from being murdered in the end. But before that happens he gives Chris a ton of slack for his repeated transgressions where any other mobster would have been murdered. And while I think part of that has to do with Tony seeing Chris as his protege and wanting to groom him to be his eventual successor I think part of it also has to do with Tony genuinely caring about Chris in his own twisted way. Then again Tony is remarkably skilled at faking empathy and uses that repeatedly throughout the show to coerce others into following him so maybe I'm just falling for his act too.
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Jun 17, 2019 15:43
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I think it's always tempting to see the heinous things that people do and declare them as sociopaths that are "without empathy". The unfortunate reality is that most of the time people are more complex than that and are able to compartmentalize the horrible things they do while displaying perfectly normal human traits in most other areas of their life.
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Jun 17, 2019 17:35
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Basebf555 posted:I think it's always tempting to see the heinous things that people do and declare them as sociopaths that are "without empathy". The unfortunate reality is that most of the time people are more complex than that and are able to compartmentalize the horrible things they do while displaying perfectly normal human traits in most other areas of their life. Yeah, agreed. I don't really believe in the concept of "evil". Everything wicked someone does is justified to them on some level. "They deserve it", "I'm getting revenge", etc.
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Jun 17, 2019 17:49
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Zaphod42 posted:Yeah, agreed. I don't really believe in the concept of "evil". Everything wicked someone does is justified to them on some level. "They deserve it", "I'm getting revenge", etc. That's why the tree branch through the car seat struck me as very true to Tony's character. Like, he's wanted to have the problem of Christopher out of his life for a good long while at that point, and in a fleeting moment he sees a mental pathway open up where he'll be able to justify doing the thing he hadn't been able to justify before, and he takes it. A detestable act, but also a very human one.
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Jun 17, 2019 19:30
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