Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

Squalid: Nov 4, 2008

Helsing posted:

The US government had conducted a wide variety of activities aimed at destroying the country, from backing the contras to imposing economic sanctions. Then they grandly announced that they would end the sanctions if the Sandinista government was voted out. There are also reports from the Toronto Star's reporters that dozens of people being killed by Contras during the election in voter intimidation incidents. I really don't know why you're comfortable dismissing the potential impact of this violence or why you think a more likely explanation was campaign spending. I imagine that for a lot of voters it was well understood that the American threat to continue sanctions was also implicitly a threat to continue sponsoring the contras. You can say with the benefit of hindsight that they were already in the process of disbanding but that was probably much less apparent to voters at the time, most of whom probably lacked any reliable information on the conflict. I think the message that probably cut very clearly through all the noise was the US government saying it would stop torturing the country if they just got rid of the Sandinistas.

I don't know whether that was indeed the decisive factor in the election but it at least seems like an equally plausible explanation to the argument that it all just came down to economic sanctions plus campaign spending.

The first mistake is even engaging with the framing that there are "decisive factors" in these kinds of complex phenomena. The entire concept is deceptive and will lead you to mistakes. To repeat myself, imagine an election. Candidate A wins with 51% of the vote against B with 49%. A got 5% extra votes for having good policy positions, and 2% via a strong ground game. Which was the decisive factor in A's victory, policy, or the ground game? Obviously the question itself is nonsensical, the victory would have been impossible without either within these margins. This kind of framing should be rejected out of hand as worse than useless.

Looking at your last sentence it seems we are basically in agreement, we are uncertain of the true contribution of any single variable. When making observations about the real world, practically speaking this will always be the case. In literally every case where economic pressure has been used in international politics to pressure a country, someone like Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! will always be able to find some excuse as to why THIS TIME, it doesn't count. Sometimes, they will even be right. It's a fundamental weakness inherent to the study of natural experiments. Unfortunately that just means we have to learn to live with some uncertainty.

# ? Jun 17, 2019 00:06

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# ? May 22, 2024 03:22

Helsing: Aug 23, 2003; DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU JOE BIDEN

M. Discordia posted:

This actually has a lot to do with Venezuela so I wanted to go over the absurdity on that page:

It's a wikipedia entry, I sort of assumed people would know that wikipedia is not a particularly reliable source for anything other than a broad overview (I also kind of thought it went without saying that a statistic with such a ridiculously wide range was inherently sketchy). And as far as overviews go the description of the Cuban government's extensive campaign of training teachers and deploying them to the countryside is an uncontroversial aspect of Cuban history. This is demonstrated by, among other things, UN statistics showing that Cuba has an adult literacy rate of 99.8%, which is better than neighboring countries. Similarly, claims that Cuba's literacy campaign was probably the most ambitious in the world at that time and perhaps one of the most ambitious programs to date are widely echoed even in publications that aren't known for their communist sympathies.

Here, for instance, is a book citing a Cuban government census from 1953 showing an illiteracy rate of 23.6% overall and 42% in the countryside:

If I had to guess I would say that somewhere between that book and the wikipedia entry the stats got garbled but probably the author was trying to cite that census and hosed it up, possibly due to lack of language skills or just a general misunderstanding of stats. Or hey, maybe it was a sinister Bolshevik conspiracy.

And just cause we're on the topic here's another good write up on Cuban literacy:

The Independent, Latin lessons: What can we learn from the world's most ambitious literacy campaign? posted:

Tuesday afternoon in the Jos� Marti Primary School means it's time for maths. A classroom full of wide-eyed eight-year-old boys and girls are poring over frayed workbooks in pairs while their teacher walks around peering over tiny shoulders. Each wears the standard Cuban primary-school uniform of burgundy shorts or mini-skirt and white short-sleeved shirt, and eager hands go up one after the other as the day's sums are completed.

It is an industrious scene, and one that plays out daily at any of the numerous schools that dot the narrow streets of La Habana Vieja (Old Havana). The schools are old and cramped � this part of the capital is a World Heritage site, and subject to Unesco's building restrictions as well as the ongoing US blockade on materials that blights the country as a whole. Teachers must therefore use the city's many parks and plazas for PE lessons, while paper, books and other basic materials that British schoolchildren take for granted are also in short supply. Yet despite these and other problems, education in Havana � indeed, across Cuba � remains one of the wonders of this evolving socialist republic.

The statistics alone are enough to make the parent of the average British schoolchild green with envy: there is a strict maximum of 25 children per primary-school class, many of which have as few as 20. Secondary schools are striving towards only 15 pupils per class � less than half the UK norm.

Irrespective of your class, your income or where you live, education at every level is free, and standards are high. The primary-school curriculum includes dance and gardening, lessons on health and hygiene, and, naturally, revolutionary history. Children are expected to help each other so that no one in the class lags too far behind. And parents must work closely with teachers as part of every child's education and social development.

Expectations are high; indiscipline and truancy are rare; school meals and uniforms are free. Although computers in good working order may be scarce, it is not uncommon for schools to open at 6.30am and close 12 hours later, providing free morning and after-school care for working parents with no extended family. "Mobile teachers" are deployed to homes if children are unable to come to school because of sickness or disability.

Micro-universities which offer part-time and distance learning have been set up in the provinces over the past few years, as competition for the country's 15 universities has become so fierce that some require 90 per cent exam averages to guarantee entry. Adult education at all levels, from Open University-type degrees to English- and French-language classes on TV, is free and popular.

The vast majority of Cuba's 150,000 teachers have studied for a minimum of five years, half to master's level. And despite financial woes which prompted the government to recently announce one million public-sector job cuts, it has promised to keep investing in free education at all levels.

Cuba spends 10 per cent of its central budget on education, compared with 4 per cent in the UK and just 2 per cent in the US, according to Unesco. The result is that three out of five Cubans over the age of 16 are in some type of formal, higher education. Wherever you travel in Cuba, just about everyone can read and write, and many have one or more academic qualifications.

In a mere half-century, Cuba has developed one of the world's most successful free education systems, admired everywhere, from the UK to Canada to New Zealand. Yet, even though Cuba's 11 million citizens are enormously proud of the educational system that has nourished them for five decades, there is increasing concern that the country's classrooms are not preparing Cubans for life beyond education.

Sitting on a park bench in Central Havana, Augusto Perdomo, an economist, electrician and housing officer in his early forties, encapsulates the issue: "Education here is great; you can study again and again, whatever you like. But then, there is not much else." It is a thirst for opportunities, felt most intensely among the youth, which poses one of the biggest threats to the Cuban political system. Will education for education's sake be enough to unite the people for another 50 years, or will the government be forced to invite foreign investment, ideas and opportunities and the inevitable social upheaval these will entail? '

In September 1960, a year after the Cuban Revolution, Fidel Castro, prime minister of the fledgling government, stood before the United Nations assembly in New York and promised to wipe out illiteracy by the end of the following year � of its total seven million population at the time, more than a million adults were illiterate and less than half of all children had access to school. "Cuba will be the first country of America which will be able to say it does not have one person who remains illiterate," he declared. He dared to make such a bold pledge, just months after becoming leader, because preparations for universal literacy in Cuba had actually begun several years earlier.

High in the lush, foggy rainforests of the Sierra Maestra mountains in the south-east of Cuba, Castro and his fellow rebel leader Che Guevara spent two years living hidden among poor subsistence farmers, or campesinos, plotting the revolution. Here, hundreds of miles away from Havana � where the pro-government professional classes lived comfortably, enjoying private schooling and colour television � Guevara and Castro discovered that more than 40 per cent of adults were illiterate; there were no schools, no electricity and minimal access to healthcare.

The Sierra Maestra is part of the mainly rural region previously known as Oriente Province, which has a strong revolutionary history. It was here in 1895 that one of Cuba's great heroes, Jos� Marti, was shot dead, aged 42. A poet, journalist, philosopher and political theorist, Marti dedicated his short life to the political, intellectual and cultural independence of all Latin Americans from Spanish colonialism and American expansionism.

It was his teachings that influenced the young Guevara and Castro as they transmitted messages of solidarity across the waves of Radio Rebelidad. But more significantly it was here that Marti's idea to bring the "light" of culture and the "bread" of literacy to peasants and newly freed slaves was made reality. Every day the rebel fighters made time to teach the uneducated campesinos with whom they lived and fought to read and write, in what Guevara termed the "battle against ignorance".

After the fall of Fulgencio Batista's regime in 1959, Castro wasted no time � 50 years ago this month, the revolutionary government had already began to mobilise the entire country, especially the youth, for what would become the world's most ambitious and organised literacy campaign.

Quickly realising that the country's educational system would buckle under the demands imposed by the drive to universal literacy, Castro used his imagination. Anyone, adult or child, who could read and write was encouraged to become an alfabetizador, or literacy teacher. Ren� Mujica Cantelar, the current Cuban ambassador to the UK, volunteered as an alfabetizador in 1961 � one of 100,000 school-aged children to do so, the youngest being a girl of eight.

The youngest son of a barber and a housewife, Cantelar was 12 years old, just out of primary school, when he responded to the barrage of posters, newspapers, radio and TV adverts calling for volunteers to join the literacy brigadistas. "Those months after the Batista government fell were incredible," he recalls. "There was great euphoria on the streets of Havana. It was children like me, not our parents, who felt most involved, so when the call came for volunteers, I went to the nearest office, signed my name, and waited to be called."

The brigadistas were taken in buses to the beach resort of Varadero, a former playground for wealthy Americans and the mafia, 85 miles east of Havana, and given a maximum of two weeks' intensive training in how to teach and how to survive the harsh, rural conditions they were about to encounter.

Newspapers listed the names of the each new brigadista and showed pictures of the youngsters arriving from all over the country, but Cantelar's name never appeared: "I couldn't understand it; I was so desperate to be a part of the campaign, so I went back and found that my mum had come in and taken my name off the register," he laughs. Days later, having convinced his mother, he was on the bus to Varadero where thousands of youngsters were crammed into casinos, ballrooms, hotels and bars. Already-anxious parents were left terrified by the bloody Bay of Pigs invasion in April 1961, just two days after the first training camp opened. But the US attack failed, and volunteer numbers swelled.

The intensive training reflected life to come: up at 5am, classes started at 6.30am; afternoons were spent hiking and in physical training. The youngsters were then sent off to live with families armed with a standard grey uniform, a warm blanket, a hammock, two textbooks � We Shall Read and We Shall Conquer � and a gas-powered lantern, so that lessons could be given at night after work ended.

Cantelar ended up on a 65 hectare farm in San Jos� de las Lagas, a municipality near Havana. During the day he worked alongside his host family of four, planting, cultivating and harvesting maize, sweet potatoes and pumpkins. For two hours each night, he taught the old man and eldest son to read and write using the lantern for light.

Many of the young teachers ate no meat or eggs or drank fresh milk for weeks, but Cantelar had been lucky � his farm also kept pigs, chickens and cows. "I learnt so much in those three months, and that was the point: we were learning more than we taught."

Schools were suspended across the country from April 1961 so that every teacher could teach and co-ordinate the 100,000 volunteers, half of whom were girls. Thousands of adults were drafted in as teachers over the last few months of that year, in order to ensure its success � and avoid embarrassment for Castro. Never before, or since, has a country used masses of unqualified teachers in such a co-ordinated way. The daily newspaper, Revolucion, published sketch maps showing each village and town that conquered illiteracy, as it happened. Everyone who had the intellectual capacity to learn was taught: the oldest person was a woman aged 106, a former slave.

Cantelar himself had mixed success: the old man dropped out after some weeks but his son, Ildo Estevez, learnt to read and write after three months and like all new literates, he wrote to Fidel, thanking him for the opportunity. Now aged 13, Cantelar joined a brigade in the northern province of Matanzas, teaching several families who worked in a salt farm, until the campaign was declared a success in December 1961: the illiteracy rate had been slashed from 25 per cent to less than 4 per cent within a year. Hundreds of thousands of alfabetizadores marched euphorically to the Plaza de la Revolucion on 22 December, carrying giant pencils, chanting, "Fidel Fidel tell us what else we can do". "Study, study, study!" came the reply. And they did.

Within months, a programme was set up for the new literates, now hungry for knowledge, to continue studying up to sixth grade, the equivalent of a primary education. Teacher-training was reformed and thousands of classrooms built; primary- and pre-school education were almost universally available in Cuba by 1970 (45 years ahead of the UN's 2015 deadline for its Millennium Development Goal).

College and university education expanded, became free, and started focusing on courses that reflected the country's skill shortages, and agricultural sciences, engineering, medicine and teaching degrees, for example, proliferated. Cuba's world-renowned healthcare system developed on the back of its educational reforms; there are now 23 medical schools in Cuba, up from three in 1959.

These changes happened at a furious pace, with the emphasis on quantity rather than quality at first, but today its defenders, such as Diosdada Vidal Valle, executive member of the education, science and sports union, claim that Cuba has a flexible education system which regularly reforms, often because of grass-roots pressure from parents and teachers.

So why did Cuba succeed where so many other literacy campaigns failed? The mass mobilisation of volunteer teachers and a system that used pictures depicting everyday scenes which people could relate to, discuss, and then learn to read and write about, were key factors, according to ' the doctor and educationalist Theodore Macdonald, honorary visiting professor at London Metropolitan University's Human Rights & Social Justice Research Institute, who has worked in, and written about, Cuba's education system. He believes that people were convinced of the need to read and write not just for their own sakes, but for the good of the country, which had lost huge numbers of skilled professionals, who had fled to Miami after the revolution. "The genius of the Cuban campaign was that they made it make a difference," he says. "It wasn't just about peasants becoming literate; it was about learning to read so they could join in politically and socially: there was a point to it. And then they wanted more."

The symbolic thank-you letters to Fidel, used by Unesco to evaluate the success of the campaign in 1964, are kept along with photographs and details of all 100,000 volunteers in a wonderful museum in La Ciudad Libertad, or the City of Liberty, which is situated in the former, vast Batista headquarters in the western suburbs of Havana. The former government offices and officials' homes are now home to bright, airy classrooms for several schools, colleges and universities, including three special schools for children with autism, learning disabilities and visual impairments.

Luisa Yara Campos, literacy museum director, teacher and committed socialist of some 40 years' standing, says: "Before 1959 it was the countryside versus the city. The literacy campaign united the country because, for the first time, people from the city understood how hard life was for people before the revolution, that they survived on their own, and that as people they had much in common. This was very important for the new government."

Over the past 50 years, thousands of Cuban literacy teachers have volunteered in countries such as Haiti, Nicaragua and Mozambique. Critics claim that this is motivated by the desire to promote socialist propaganda and the government's reputation in these countries. But Dr Jaime Canfux Guti�rrez, director of literacy at the Latin American and Caribbean Pedagogical Institute in La Ciudad Libertad, insists that this initiative is about promotion of Marti's principle of "literacy without borders". "This is about education for everyone as a human right, no matter who you are or where you live."

The Cuban programme continues to be adapted for use all over the world, including in Canada, Venezuela and among Maori people in New Zealand today. But, insists Professor Macdonald, the speed and extent of Cuba's advances in literacy struggle to be replicated elsewhere without the same political commitment to education and social change.

Furthering this argument, Bill Greenshields, the former president of the UK's National Union of Teachers, believes that the achievements of the Cuban education system are so inextricably linked to its socialist principles, that they remain unpalatable, and largely overlooked, by many governments not so disposed to Cuba's politics.

Indeed, even in Cuba, the great experiment has been beset by problems of late. In recent years, there has been an exodus of secondary-school teachers, seeking to earn "hard currency" by working with tourists as taxi drivers, guides or in hotels, according to Valle from the education union. Attempts to fill the gap by using intensive teacher-training courses for young people barely out of school, and introducing a generalist degree, attracted widespread criticism and have recently been abandoned.

The exodus is, in fact, a symptom of a wider problem, which has become more pronounced since visa restrictions were eased to encourage more tourists, and their dollars. Cubans meet these incomers, see their fashionable clothes, hear about their lifestyles, and many obviously want the same opportunities to travel and earn money. Some are even talking of a "crisis in education".

"A youngster sees that his dad is a doctor, his mum is a teacher, his uncle an engineer, and yet the family cannot afford a TV or nice clothes," says primary-school teacher Julio Gomez. "So they think, 'I'm better off working with tourists.' This is a problem for teaching, for our education [system], but also for the country."

Valle, however, is confident that the Cuban education system will not only survive, but will continue to reform and improve. "Here we are always seeking for a perfect system; that is the way it has been for 50 years. When we encounter problems, we introduce modifications; the next is always better than the last. It is true that many teachers have left because of the economic situation; wanting more money is a reasonable desire. But teaching remains a very respected profession. We have introduced a new minimum salary and modified the training, so I am confident that we will resolve this crisis as well."

Yet Professor Macdonald is less certain that the Cuban system can survive, at least within its own borders. "The Cuban model is at the vanguard of education, and health, but its future in a neo-liberal [market-driven] world is grim. There is an increasing shift towards appreciating and copying the Cuban system in Latin America and many other countries such as Malawi and Pakistan, but it is unlikely that [the original] will survive to see these changes. Cuba is like Moses in the wilderness. It will lead people to the Promised Land but it will never get there itself." n

My part in a nation's education

by Dr Jorge Fiallo

Dr Jorge Fiallo, 63, adviser to the vice-president of the Latin American and Caribbean Institute of Pedagogy in La Ciudad Libertad, was 14 when he volunteered for the literacy campaign. "My father was a soldier in the Batista army and died fighting against Fidel's men's in 1958," he recalls, while looking through his archived records for the first time. "At the time I was living a comfortable life with my mother in a house in Havana, attending a private Catholic school, so I guess I should have been against the revolution, but I wasn't; I was still too young.

"You couldn't miss the call for teachers, and I went to Varadero in July for training. I was sent to a farm in Pinar del Rio to live with a very poor family of five. I stayed for 115 days. The men's work was dangerous, climbing up palm trees to chop down leaves to make roofs. I helped on the farm and then taught the three adults at night.

"I was always hungry. They ate so badly: maize and rice, nothing else. I used to spend my monthly 100 peso (�2.80) allowance on processed meat for us all. There was no electricity; the river for water was 150 metres away. I was so scared of the snakes that I slept in my hammock. Once I needed a doctor, but the hospital was 21km away: 10km by horse, then 11km by shared truck; I couldn't believe what their life was like. It was a truly extraordinary experience and changed me forever, in a good way." NL

# ? Jun 17, 2019 01:15

Pablo Nergigante: Apr 16, 2002

Yeah the country that developed a lung cancer vaccine and eliminated mother-to-child HIV transmission has really stagnated

# ? Jun 17, 2019 01:34

Salean: Mar 17, 2004; Homewrecker

Pablo Nergigante posted:

Yeah the country that developed a lung cancer vaccine and eliminated mother-to-child HIV transmission has really stagnated

Another american sanction success story

# ? Jun 17, 2019 01:48

Moridin920: Nov 15, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

Uh Cuba also has a lower infant mortality rate than the USA in general lol

# ? Jun 17, 2019 04:20

Neurosis: Jun 10, 2003; Fallen Rib

Kavros posted:

I know by now the discussions about the recent venezuelan power troubles are stuck well in the depths of this thread, but much like with Venezuela's hyperinflation and the crisis imposed by the price fixing programs, the problems in many parts of Venezuela's electrical grid remained inconsistent with sabotage and were absolutely inconsistent with the specific conspiracies that Maduro claimed as official account of the crisis at the time.

The power failures were the kind which come about from continued institutional neglect and mismanagement. Party fixtures throughout Venezuela were appointed to spoils posts all throughout Corpoelec and gradually inflicted on it the exact same things that occurred rampantly in PVDSA. Like petro engineers, electrical engineers are among the first to fly the coop when rampant mismanagement and labor shortage makes their work potentially lethally dangerous, especially when their paychecks stopped coming reliably. A serious quantity of technicians and electricians are no longer involved or invested in Corpoelec maintenance compared even a few years ago, a tremendous quantity of the substantially skilled operators are long gone from the state's power monopoly, and places like Guri have only a handful of senior level staff with any ability to attempt sync turbine restarts that are in little condition to endure stressful restarts. Each time there's an attempt, poorly maintained substations may literally explode, which is exactly what happened last time. It would have been one thing if the official government account of the situation was remotely plausible, but what ended up happening is that Venezuelan state government offered accusations of sabotage dressed up to fit language that Maduro had used directly in public account which was essentially impossible, if not entirely.

Yeah. Some posts were inconsistent with my recollection of how thread discussion went. My memory is people said direct US involvement was improbable although not totally impossible. The derisive laughter was at Maduro's claim of a 'cybernetic' and 'electromagnetic' attack.

# ? Jun 17, 2019 05:30

fnox: May 19, 2013

Balliver Shagnasty posted:

I have to admire your tenacity, because any other person would have just said "peace out" and left the thread to whatever circlejerks the posters want to engage in.

And most Venegoons already have. But anyway, so I�ve been thinking about this, and I guess my answer is a bit more complicated than it originally was. When I first started posting in this thread it was an attempt to bypass the encroachment of freedom of speech in the country, which has been well underway under Maduro to the point where he owns almost all print and television media. I wanted to show the world what I was going through in the only way I knew how.

That was the case for many years, for quite a while the thread was either Venezuelans or people with good knowledge of the situation, we�d talk about current events, we�d discuss both the ineffectiveness of the opposition (I�m a vocal critic of them, always have been), and the overwhelming corruption, negligence and criminality of the Madurista government, as well as how absurd their excuses were.

These excuses, I believe are the focal point of the thread today. With US involvement ramping up significantly in 2019, radical left circles in America suddenly became aware that a crisis was underway in Venezuela, thus started posting about it. Most of these posters have a hatred of America that far outweighs their knowledge of the country, thus everything begins to gravitate towards that, to the extent of questioning what once were established facts.

I don�t have a problem talking about America�s noxious effect in Latin American affairs, I�m not exactly in love with America, I pretty openly oppose Trump, he reminds me of the populist that Chavez was. What happens though is that this chokes out any discussion about what�s happening on the ground. Some posters have gone to absurd lengths to implicate US involvement in literally every part of the crisis. It�s like an ignorance bubble, created by a refusal to stick to evidence.

When I returned to the thread after the hiatus I took, I came back to someone implying that since there are Google reviews for restaurants done this year in Venezuela, there likely wasn�t any food shortages. As someone who had gone about a year without drinking milk because it just couldn�t be loving found anywhere back in 2016, I begged to differ. Pop the bubble. Counter the straight up bullshit.

So the issue is that these posters with little understanding of what Venezuela was before this year come in fully convinced that they can blame the US for literally everything, seemingly including corruption, or stuff that has been going on before any sanctions. Nothing is ever approached from a Venezuelan standpoint, or the country�s historical context. There doesn�t seem to be any need for evidence, because �why wouldn�t the US do this� seems sufficient for them. And that�s not productive for anyone, that doesn�t drive the discussion forward, that doesn�t inform anybody, that isn�t fair to the Venezuelans who are witnessed and have witnessed gross misconduct from their government, it diminishes and belittles them.

My hope ultimately is that by bringing back that historical context of the crisis, those moments that much more clearly explain what is going on rather than aimlessly pinning everything down to US action. I hope that in doing that this thread will become useful to those who are just casually reading and just wanna be updated on the situation, people who do not need to be constantly reminded of terrible American policy in Latin America, and instead want the part they don�t know about, what has been happening on the other side of the Caribbean.

And to those posters, I just hope you start reading more into Venezuela. Be it to try and find a sick own for something I say, or to expand your own understanding of the situation. Find actual sources from the country, find real evidence of US action, don�t settle for extrapolating something that happened elsewhere as a way to explain events in Venezuela. And for the love of god, read into the level of corruption within the PSUV, they are not worth defending, they are not fighting for a socialist struggle, the evidence of corruption is widespread. Don�t believe them, challenge what they say, assume they would lie to save their hide as they often do.

fnox fucked around with this message at 12:11 on Jun 17, 2019

# ? Jun 17, 2019 12:06

M. Discordia: Apr 30, 2003; by Smythe

Undoubtedly there was a literacy program in Cuba in 1961, undoubtedly no one can quantitatively measure how effective it was because the numbers provided are provable fabrications, undoubtedly worldwide literacy has risen at a steady 4% every year for decades, indicating that perhaps Castro's prison camps and Guevara's mass graves were not necessary to teach some amount of people to read.

# ? Jun 17, 2019 12:38

Helsing: Aug 23, 2003; DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU JOE BIDEN

M. Discordia posted:

Undoubtedly there was a literacy program in Cuba in 1961, undoubtedly no one can quantitatively measure how effective it was because the numbers provided are provable fabrications, undoubtedly worldwide literacy has risen at a steady 4% every year for decades, indicating that perhaps Castro's prison camps and Guevara's mass graves were not necessary to teach some amount of people to read.

*peering into the distant horizon, trying to see where those goal posts finally ended up*

# ? Jun 17, 2019 13:35

Pablo Nergigante: Apr 16, 2002

M. Discordia posted:

Undoubtedly there was a literacy program in Cuba in 1961, undoubtedly no one can quantitatively measure how effective it was because the numbers provided are provable fabrications, undoubtedly worldwide literacy has risen at a steady 4% every year for decades, indicating that perhaps Castro's prison camps and Guevara's mass graves were not necessary to teach some amount of people to read.

Galaxy brain

# ? Jun 17, 2019 14:37

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!!: May 31, 2006

M. Discordia posted:

Undoubtedly there was a literacy program in Cuba in 1961, undoubtedly no one can quantitatively measure how effective it was because the numbers provided are provable fabrications, undoubtedly worldwide literacy has risen at a steady 4% every year for decades, indicating that perhaps Castro's prison camps and Guevara's mass graves were not necessary to teach some amount of people to read.

the mass graves in Nicaragua and Guatemala, however. those were definitely required to make the world a better place.

you can tell, because it was kindly old uncle Abrams who did them. and you can't have teachers around giving the kids ideas, can you? suspiciously commie talk, that.

# ? Jun 17, 2019 14:44

GoluboiOgon: Aug 19, 2017; by Nyc_Tattoo

M. Discordia posted:

Undoubtedly there was a literacy program in Cuba in 1961, undoubtedly no one can quantitatively measure how effective it was because the numbers provided are provable fabrications, undoubtedly worldwide literacy has risen at a steady 4% every year for decades, indicating that perhaps Castro's prison camps and Guevara's mass graves were not necessary to teach some amount of people to read.

media literacy campaigns: a profound necessity for a functioning and free society
teaching the peasants to read: the horrors of communism

# ? Jun 17, 2019 15:54

Moridin920: Nov 15, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

M. Discordia posted:

Undoubtedly there was a literacy program in Cuba in 1961, undoubtedly no one can quantitatively measure how effective it was because the numbers provided are provable fabrications, undoubtedly worldwide literacy has risen at a steady 4% every year for decades, indicating that perhaps Castro's prison camps and Guevara's mass graves were not necessary to teach some amount of people to read.

Ya know maybe if the USA didn't try to make Cuba a puppet with their requirements on Cuba's constitution and legislature then there wouldn't have been rampant corruption, unemployment rates comparable to the US during the great depression, half the country without electricity, half the population in shacks without running water, some of the highest rents and electricity rates in the world, about 1.5 percent of landlords owning half of all the land, a 63% literacy rate, rampant TB and parasites, all public utilities being US run monopolies, all the best land and all the oil refineries owned by US companies, extraction of wealth from Cuba back to the USA... Then they wouldn't have needed a communist revolution.

:shrug:

# ? Jun 17, 2019 15:57

Squalid: Nov 4, 2008

fnox posted:

So the issue is that these posters with little understanding of what Venezuela was before this year come in fully convinced that they can blame the US for literally everything, seemingly including corruption, or stuff that has been going on before any sanctions. Nothing is ever approached from a Venezuelan standpoint, or the country�s historical context. There doesn�t seem to be any need for evidence, because �why wouldn�t the US do this� seems sufficient for them. And that�s not productive for anyone, that doesn�t drive the discussion forward, that doesn�t inform anybody, that isn�t fair to the Venezuelans who are witnessed and have witnessed gross misconduct from their government, it diminishes and belittles them.

I've noticed this as well. A big part of it I think is that most people have trouble looking at an issue from someone else's perspective, and this is one of the reasons you in particular catch so much flak. When an American reads you talking about the importance of opposing Maduro, they don't hear a Venezuelan talking to Venezuelans about Venezuelan issues. They hear someone addressing themselves personally about an issue of American foreign policy. That's the light they see the conversation in, and they can't step out of themselves to see how the context might be different for other people.

An example of this is how many Europeans start talking about preventing austerity as a reason to support Maduro, or at least oppose Guaido. On its face this is an absurdity, public spending has crashed under Maduro and by any reasonable measure Venezuela is undergoing the deepest austerity imaginable. However it makes sense when you realize they aren't even really thinking about Venezuela. Instead they are projecting their own domestic political issues onto Venezuela, even if it doesn't make sense in context. Venezuela's problems become just another way to talk about their own local issues.

I'm not immune to this effect myself, obviously. Years ago when this thread was just people posting news I was pretty much just quiet, because I had nothing to contribute. I don't know that much about Venezuela or events on the ground. I have much more to say in internal debates, but at least I can say about myself that I'm not going to try and shout Venezuelans down.

# ? Jun 17, 2019 16:58

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009

Squalid posted:

I've noticed this as well. A big part of it I think is that most people have trouble looking at an issue from someone else's perspective, and this is one of the reasons you in particular catch so much flak. When an American reads you talking about the importance of opposing Maduro, they don't hear a Venezuelan talking to Venezuelans about Venezuelan issues. They hear someone addressing themselves personally about an issue of American foreign policy. That's the light they see the conversation in, and they can't step out of themselves to see how the context might be different for other people.

The reason why is because some of the loudest people (here and elsewhere) emphasizing the need to oppose Maduro have also said that this means we need to support a U.S. intervention to replace him - even if that means he is replaced with a murderous Condor Years-type fascist.

# ? Jun 17, 2019 17:39

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Also, in the case of austerity Venezuela, it is clear from published data, the state simply lacks any resources to run services at this point and in honesty has been running on fumes since around 2012 or so although it has gotten worse in the last 2 years. Isn't quite the same as the Eurozone where the resources were there in abundance (not just billions but hundreds of billions) but austerity was used as an "instructive lesson" against the population.

# ? Jun 17, 2019 17:47

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

fnox posted:

Stuff.

Pretty much this. I don't care if I sound patronizing, but nearly every newcomer to this thread have little idea what they are talking about.

They don't know basic things such as the crisis was WELL underway before any type of sanctions were implemented.

That the issues of shortages, corruption, and monetary policy didn't happen overnight, but we're very gradual while the PSUV did nothing to stop them, and only make them worse.

Many want to make the issue with Venezuela a story of a country that had a successful socialist government nearly two decades that was then ruined by the US economy by sanctions that would make Iran blush, but in actuality Venezuela was crumbling far before the nation got mainstream news attention.

Squalid posted:

Other stuff.

I remember the segment of the thread when the Americans embarrassingly tried to bring America racial politics to Latin America. Or...kinda not since they called people who were clearly "brown" white Europeans.

The PSUV is also huge on cyrptocurrency. Right and left wing can look different depending on the country.

Majorian posted:

The reason why is because some of the loudest people (here and elsewhere) emphasizing the need to oppose Maduro have also said that this means we need to support a U.S. intervention to replace him - even if that means he is replaced with a murderous Condor Years-type fascist.

While I admit these types in the thread have show presence, they were/are fairly outnumbered by posters praising up the PSUV as a downtrodden angelic party that had the nation's success snatched for them by sanctions, and any Venezuelan complaining is a plantation owner.

Edit - To add to this. The major issue Venezuelan posters and others have in this thread is the framing the newcomers use. They are far too apologietic to the PSUV, as the party isn't portrayed as the corrupt regime that it is, but rather another left wing government that is for the people that its sole and only reason for struggling is because the United States is destroying it from the inside out. And that isn't an accurate representation of the situation and is obviously frustrating for the people who had and have to live through this.

punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Jun 17, 2019

# ? Jun 17, 2019 17:56

vincentpricesboner: Sep 3, 2006; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

WhiskeyWhiskers posted:

No, we really can't. That's ridiculous. They're a stable state with no active war, they have an open border and trade with China and their main problems are caused by US sanctions.

How can you honestly say we don't know that things in North Korea are terrible? Am i just being whooshed by a bad troll? There is no question that North Korea has been in crisis for years and years. There is an argument to be made of how exactly bad things are in Venezuela. To argue that we can't really know how bad things are in NK is ridiculous.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2018/05/1009502

https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/north-korea

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48590691

https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/27/ive-seen-starving-north-korean-women-executed-for-eating-their-own-children-8726479/

Either way, the original argument of "if things were actually bad, people would revolt" is bullshit.

vincentpricesboner fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Jun 17, 2019

# ? Jun 17, 2019 18:04

Moridin920: Nov 15, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

zapplez posted:

How can you honestly say we don't know that things in North Korea are terrible?

I think they are probably not great but just to be devil's advocate: is there any piece of information you have about NK that wasn't disseminated by Western sources with an interest against North Korea?

Like I said things are probably not great but I am a little skeptical of some of the more sensationalist stuff especially when they tell me certain people were executed for trivial things but then I see that person alive and fine a few months later lol

# ? Jun 17, 2019 18:18

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009

punk rebel ecks posted:

While I admit these types in the thread have show presence, they were/are fairly outnumbered by posters praising up the PSUV as a downtrodden angelic party that had the nation's success snatched for them by sanctions, and any Venezuelan complaining is a plantation owner.

Are they? fnox literally believes that a new Pinochet would be better than Maduro. zapplez and others have said that literally anything, up to and including a U.S. invasion, would be better than Maduro. On the other hand, it seems to me that the people who think the PSUV are a downtrodden angelic party are few in number and pretty easy to ignore.

quote:

Edit - To add to this. The major issue Venezuelan posters and others have in this thread is the framing the newcomers use. They are far too apologietic to the PSUV, as the party isn't portrayed as the corrupt regime that it is, but rather another left wing government that is for the people that its sole and only reason for struggling is because the United States is destroying it from the inside out. And that isn't an accurate representation of the situation and is obviously frustrating for the people who had and have to live through this.

It would probably be helpful to disaggregate people who are critical of Maduro but also stolidly against intervention from those people who think Maduro has done nothing wrong, don't you think?

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Jun 17, 2019 18:20

Moridin920: Nov 15, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

Basically I'm just of the opinion (which hasn't changed all that much really) that there's probably a lot of bad fuckery going on with PSUV and various officials and probably including Maduro. Like the US has been loving with Cuba for decades and they're not collapsing into a nightmare. I understand there are oil export dependencies and fluctuating prices that didn't help either but even if we decide to ignore corruption/etc. it is just mismanagement to not have contingencies for "what if oil gets cheaper" and to not recognize the reliance on foreign oil purchasers is not a solid foundation for a socialist state (I know that's simplified down too, but still).

However, the US having to stick their dicks into every single thing muddies the waters greatly - not in terms of whether I think Maduro is good but just in terms of I am highly suspicious of Guiado and his backers. It's difficult to separate out "Maduro sucks" from the Bolton fans who go "yeah and so we gotta go drop some bombs about it!" Well idk what the plan is but all historical indications suggest that if the USA really wanted to help we'd send food and medicine (or give money to 3rd party groups that can provide it if VZ doesn't trust the US enough to accept it) and otherwise butt the gently caress out. I dunno why the US had to appoint a war criminal to be the special envoy. I hate that even humanitarian aid turns into some ideological crusade.

Lately, mostly I'm pissed because 100% guaranteed there are Venezuelans trying to seek asylum at the US border and they're probably shuffled into the concentration camps.

# ? Jun 17, 2019 18:33

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Majorian posted:

It would probably be helpful to disaggregate people who are critical of Maduro but also stolidly against intervention from those people who think Maduro has done nothing wrong, don't you think?

Labradoodle and Chuck Boone are two prominent examples.

# ? Jun 17, 2019 18:44

Kavros: May 18, 2011; sleep sleep sleep
fly fly post post
sleep sleep sleep

zapplez posted:

Either way, the original argument of "if things were actually bad, people would revolt" is bullshit.

Essentially, yes. Other nightmares around the world amply disprove the idea "if it was really that bad they would have overthrown the government by now" even if you discount the issue of how other world powers can completely gently caress over the environment for reform or revolution (guaido, etc)

# ? Jun 17, 2019 18:44

Moridin920: Nov 15, 2007; by FactsAreUseless

Wasn't the original argument not "if it were so bad people would revolt" but rather "if it is so bad why is the opposition incapable of getting support?" It's not a huge distinction I guess but I think people were mostly wondering why the pro-Maduro rallies are bigger than the anti-Maduro rallies (assuming that's even true ofc but no one has really denied it so far that I've seen)?

Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Jun 17, 2019

# ? Jun 17, 2019 18:51

vincentpricesboner: Sep 3, 2006; by LITERALLY AN ADMIN

Moridin920 posted:

Wasn't the original argument not "if it were so bad people would revolt" but rather "if it is so bad why is the opposition incapable of getting support?" It's not a huge distinction I guess but I think people were mostly wondering why the pro-Maduro rallies are bigger than the anti-Maduro rallies (assuming that's even true ofc but no one has really denied it so far that I've seen)?

The opposition has gotten a ton of support though. Literally millions of people have been protesting the government over the past year. Did you not see the giant parades earlier?

Just because the military (who is actively bribed and benefits for the PSUV to remain in power) didn't participate doesn't mean that there is anti-maduro sentiment from the citizens of the country.

# ? Jun 17, 2019 19:01

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

zapplez posted:

The opposition has gotten a ton of support though. Literally millions of people have been protesting the government over the past year. Did you not see the giant parades earlier?

Just because the military (who is actively bribed and benefits for the PSUV to remain in power) didn't participate doesn't mean that there is anti-maduro sentiment from the citizens of the country.

Seriously. The anti-Maduro rallies were massive.

# ? Jun 17, 2019 19:10

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009

zapplez posted:

The opposition has gotten a ton of support though. Literally millions of people have been protesting the government over the past year. Did you not see the giant parades earlier?

Just because the military (who is actively bribed and benefits for the PSUV to remain in power) didn't participate doesn't mean that there is anti-maduro sentiment from the citizens of the country.

It doesn't mean that the opposition, in its current incarnation, had all that much support from the public, though, either. It's not just the military that didn't turn out for Guaido's quixotic march. There's a reason why the leftists in Venezuela have charted out a path that condemns Maduro but refuses to endorse a U.S. puppet or an intervention, after all.

punk rebel ecks posted:

Labradoodle and Chuck Boone are two prominent examples.

I haven't seen either of those two posting in a while.

# ? Jun 17, 2019 19:12

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

Majorian posted:

It doesn't mean that the opposition, in its current incarnation, had all that much support from the public, though, either. It's not just the military that didn't turn out for Guaido's quixotic march. There's a reason why the leftists in Venezuela have charted out a path that condemns Maduro but refuses to endorse a U.S. puppet or an intervention, after all.

I haven't seen either of those two posting in a while.

You got any links regarding the Venezuelan anti-Maduro left? I'm pretty dubious that they have much in the way of support either right now, not least because it's really tempting for any up and coming leftist leaders to be coopted into the PSUV. But it'd be cool if I'm wrong.

edit: otoh it's entirely possible they've been blacked out by Telesur too

Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Jun 17, 2019

# ? Jun 17, 2019 19:19

WhiskeyWhiskers: Oct 14, 2013; "هذا ليس عادلاً."
"هذا ليس عادلاً على الإطلاق."
"كان هناك وقت الآن."
(السياق الخفي: للقراءة)

Yeah I really doubt it. Who is it? loving Trots?

# ? Jun 17, 2019 19:21

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009

GreyjoyBastard posted:

You got any links regarding the Venezuelan anti-Maduro left? I'm pretty dubious that they have much in the way of support either right now, not least because it's really tempting for any up and coming leftist leaders to be coopted into the PSUV. But it'd be cool if I'm wrong.

It was from a couple weeks back IIRC. I'll find it, but it was basically, "We don't support Maduro, and we also really, really don't support Guaido or any outside interference."

e: Here we go: (yes, they're Trots, but they're also correct on this)

Chuck Boone posted:

A friend just forwarded me this note written by the "Liga de Trabajadores por el Socialismo" (League of Workers for Socialism), which is a Venezuelan group. I'm sharing it here because I hope that the position that the note puts forward will help people in this thread think critically about their blind support for Maduro.

I don't know that they represent very many leftists in Venezuela, but I would guess the "Maduro is an rear end in a top hat and so is Guaido and so are all imperialist powers trying to interfere in our politics" position is one that a great many Venezuelans share.

Majorian fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Jun 17, 2019

# ? Jun 17, 2019 19:21

Rust Martialis: May 8, 2007; At night, Bavovnyatko quietly comes to the occupiers’ bases, depots, airfields, oil refineries and other places full of flammable items and starts playing with fire there

WhiskeyWhiskers posted:

Yeah I really doubt it. Who is it? loving Trots?

You should support Guaidó, he has Stalin on his team.

# ? Jun 17, 2019 19:26

punk rebel ecks: Dec 11, 2010; A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

Majorian posted:

I haven't seen either of those two posting in a while.

Because as I've said, and they themselves complained about, were tired of being overran by the blind PSUV apologists in the thread.

To answer your other inquiry, I can't list specific posters here as I assume that would get me probed.

# ? Jun 17, 2019 19:36

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009

punk rebel ecks posted:

Because as I've said, and they themselves complained about, were tired of being overran by the blind PSUV apologists in the thread.

To answer your other inquiry, I can't list specific posters here as I assume that would get me probed.

Well, for what it's worth, Boone and my position seem to be pretty much the same. There's really not much more an American leftist (or really any non-Venezuelan leftist) can do right now with regard to the situation in Venezuela, beyond give what money we can to humanitarian organizations that seem to be above-board, acknowledge that neither Maduro nor Guaido are any good, and continue to stolidly oppose any sort of foreign intervention.

Majorian fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Jun 17, 2019

# ? Jun 17, 2019 19:40

fnox: May 19, 2013

Majorian posted:

fnox literally believes that a new Pinochet would be better than Maduro.

Majorian posted:

Dude, you literally said that Pinochet would be better than Maduro

Majorian posted:

I didn't say you support Pinochet. I said you claimed that he would be better than Maduro, which is a thing that you quite literally said.

Majorian posted:

you think Pinochet would be better than Maduro

fnox posted:

Maduro is worse than Pinochet by any metric. loving, please, find me one thing that Maduro has done right, one.

So, this is part of what makes this particular thread so loving awful to post in. You and other posters have, consistently, engaged into this type of strawman that is meant to portray me as a fascist. This is what you use to deflect any sort of pointed criticism at Maduro, this is what you use to loop back to America, this is what you use to get out of tight spots. This doesn't help the debate, this doesn't help your point, this is you literally inverting what I am saying and then claiming it as a fact, despite me constantly clarifying about this point being false. I never, not loving once said that I would rather have Pinochet than Maduro. The reason why Maduro is worse than Pinochet is that unlike Chile, Venezuela will never recover from the damage Maduro has caused to it, Maduro has just loving doomed the country, he's killed thousands directly, many thousands more indirectly, and more will be known once he's out.

Quit this bullshit and maybe we can begin steering this thread somewhere productive.

fnox fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Jun 17, 2019

# ? Jun 17, 2019 20:09

GoluboiOgon: Aug 19, 2017; by Nyc_Tattoo

fnox posted:

I never, not loving once said that I would rather have Pinochet than Maduro. The reason why Maduro is worse than Pinochet is ...
Quit this bullshit and maybe we can begin steering this thread somewhere productive.

# ? Jun 17, 2019 20:17

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009

fnox posted:

So, this is part of what makes this particular thread so loving awful to post in. You and other posters have, consistently, engaged into this type of strawman that is meant to portray me as a fascist. This is what you use to deflect any sort of pointed criticism at Maduro, this is what you use to loop back to America, this is what you use to get out of tight spots. This doesn't help the debate, this doesn't help your point, this is you literally inverting what I am saying and then claiming it as a fact, despite me constantly clarifying about this point being false. I never, not loving once said that I would rather have Pinochet than Maduro. The reason why Maduro is worse than Pinochet is that unlike Chile, Venezuela will never recover from the damage Maduro has caused to it, Maduro has just loving doomed the country, he's killed thousands directly, many thousands more indirectly, and more will be known once he's out.

Quit this bullshit and maybe we can begin steering this thread somewhere productive.

When you make statement as asinine and callous as "Maduro is worse than Pinochet," guess what? You have to expect that you're going to get called out on it a bit.

# ? Jun 17, 2019 20:20

Helsing: Aug 23, 2003; DON'T POST IN THE ELECTION THREAD UNLESS YOU JOE BIDEN

fnox posted:

So, this is part of what makes this particular thread so loving awful to post in. You and other posters have, consistently, engaged into this type of strawman that is meant to portray me as a fascist. This is what you use to deflect any sort of pointed criticism at Maduro, this is what you use to loop back to America, this is what you use to get out of tight spots. This doesn't help the debate, this doesn't help your point, this is you literally inverting what I am saying and then claiming it as a fact, despite me constantly clarifying about this point being false. I never, not loving once said that I would rather have Pinochet than Maduro. The reason why Maduro is worse than Pinochet is that unlike Chile, Venezuela will never recover from the damage Maduro has caused to it, Maduro has just loving doomed the country, he's killed thousands directly, many thousands more indirectly, and more will be known once he's out.

Quit this bullshit and maybe we can begin steering this thread somewhere productive.

Saying "Maduro is worse than Pinochet by any metric" would seem to strongly imply that Pinochet would be a better choice. How else do you expect people to interpret that statement?

# ? Jun 17, 2019 20:21

fnox: May 19, 2013

Majorian posted:

When you make statement as asinine and callous as "Maduro is worse than Pinochet," guess what? You have to expect that you're going to get called out on it a bit.

So what about this statement is the part that you struggle to believe in? You don't think that Maduro has caused a similar level of destruction? You don't think he's corrupted the essence of the Venezuelan state to its deepest core? You think the 4 million expats are gonna return once he's gone?

Tell me, what's so hard to believe about this? The number of dead?

Helsing posted:

Saying "Maduro is worse than Pinochet by any metric" would seem to strongly imply that Pinochet would be a better choice. How else do you expect people to interpret that statement?

Maduro is worse than Pinochet. That's how you interpret it. That doesn't mean I would want a Pinochet, that would also be bad and would be something I would fight tooth and nail against, it's not an endorsement, it's putting things in perspective. What that means is that, in the scale of damage, Maduro exceeds him, and if you start viewing it with those eyes, then you realise why people get loving angry when criticism about him is deflected.

fnox fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Jun 17, 2019

# ? Jun 17, 2019 20:22

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009

fnox posted:

So what about this statement is the part that you struggle to believe in? You don't think that Maduro has caused a similar level of destruction?

I don't, no. Pinochet objectively tortured and killed a substantially greater number of people than Maduro has. The fact that that isn't a metric that seems to matter to you is...concerning.

# ? Jun 17, 2019 20:26

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# ? May 22, 2024 03:22

Rust Martialis: May 8, 2007; At night, Bavovnyatko quietly comes to the occupiers’ bases, depots, airfields, oil refineries and other places full of flammable items and starts playing with fire there

Comparing Maduro to Pinochet is just another iteration of "who's worse". Stalin* vs Hitler vs Mao vs Pol Pot vs....

It's pointless. They're each horrible on their own merits.

* Our one resident tankie's inevitable objection is pre-empted.

# ? Jun 17, 2019 20:26

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: The Empanada Summit

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