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Majorian posted:I don't, no. Pinochet objectively tortured and killed a substantially greater number of people than Maduro has. The fact that that isn't a metric that seems to matter to you is...concerning. You think this is just about numbers? OK, let's make it about nothing but numbers. How many do you think Maduro has illegally arrested, tortured and killed? How do you think he treats the opposition, and by that I don't mean Guaido, I mean the people you don't hear about. The students, the protesters, the union leaders.
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Jun 17, 2019 20:30
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fnox posted:You think this is just about numbers? OK, let's make it about nothing but numbers. How many do you think Maduro has illegally arrested, tortured and killed? How do you think he treats the opposition, and by that I don't mean Guaido, I mean the people you don't hear about. The students, the protesters, the union leaders. Why don’t you tell me how many he’s killed or tortured? If it’s in the tens of thousands you may have an argument for him being worse than a right-wing dictator. But I think we both know that’s not true.
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Jun 17, 2019 20:36
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fnox posted:You think this is just about numbers? OK, let's make it about nothing but numbers. How many do you think Maduro has illegally arrested, tortured and killed? How do you think he treats the opposition, and by that I don't mean Guaido, I mean the people you don't hear about. The students, the protesters, the union leaders. dude I personally think that Maduro is a pretty poo poo authoritarian but you're loving nuts if you think he's worse than goddamn pinochet. like jesus
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Jun 17, 2019 20:36
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fnox posted:
I don't really want to get pulled into the weeds litigating a comparison that doesn't make a lot of sense but if you're going to make statements like this then I think you need to accept that most folks are naturally going to interpret what you wrote here as being the logical equivalent to saying that Pinochet would be better than Maduro. Everything else you're writing kind of furthers that impressions.
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Jun 17, 2019 20:36
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Rust Martialis posted:Comparing Maduro to Pinochet is just another iteration of "who's worse". Stalin* vs Hitler vs Mao vs Pol Pot vs.... which makes the Venezuelan Voices, which we must not talk over, explaining that as far as they're concerned Pinochet would be better than Maduro extremely interesting. one might begin to come to the conclusion their objection is not to the extrajudicial brutality, but rather to the fact the wrong people are being brutalized. or just that not enough are dead yet. or perhaps they just like helicopters. who can say!
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Jun 17, 2019 20:39
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Majorian posted:Why don’t you tell me how many he’s killed or tortured? If it’s in the tens of thousands you may have an argument for him being worse than a right-wing dictator. But I think we both know that’s not true. Are you afraid of making the comparison? Because really, we can make the numbers add up fairly quickly. What's the murder rate like in Venezuela? How many of the literally hundred thousand murdered in Venezuela during his relatively short stay in power you think are actually the action of security forces or colectivos? How many people have died emigrating? How many people have ended up in human trafficking rings as a result of their desperation to leave? How many have SEBIN just disappeared and in the ensuing chaos of the thousands of kidnappings going on in the country every year, never been accounted for? Do you really think it's not gonna be comparable if we allow Maduro to stay 17 years in power? Are you willing to say that he's better just because he's left wing?
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Jun 17, 2019 20:44
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hell yeah, real At Least Pinochet Kept Chile Safe For Decent People hours, who up
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Jun 17, 2019 20:52
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fnox posted:Are you afraid of making the comparison? Not at all. That's why I keep bringing up the fact that Pinochet systematically and deliberately killed and tortured tens of thousands, and Maduro, well, hasn't. quote:Do you really think it's not gonna be comparable if we allow Maduro to stay 17 years in power? Are you willing to say that he's better just because he's left wing? I would really, strongly hope that Maduro does not stay in power for 17 more years. I sincerely doubt that he will. As I've said multiple times ITT, I'd like it if a genuinely left-wing alternative replaced him in a popular rebellion. But I know what history teaches us: right-wing U.S.-backed despots tend to be considerably worse than pseudo-leftist incompetent blobs that aren't friends with Elliott Abrams. Majorian fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Jun 17, 2019 |
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Jun 17, 2019 21:03
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GreyjoyBastard posted:You got any links regarding the Venezuelan anti-Maduro left? I'm pretty dubious that they have much in the way of support either right now, not least because it's really tempting for any up and coming leftist leaders to be coopted into the PSUV. But it'd be cool if I'm wrong. https://www.peoplesworld.org/article/venezuelan-communists-say-maduro-government-not-responding-to-workers-demands/ This is one of the big reasons I'm not pro Maduro at all. But Fnox thinks I'm pro Maduro because I also happen to think America is trying to destabilize the country. Fnox is a big time expert on foreign policy and should be trusted, because he's from Venezuala. He also owns a bank account In America, which he claims is the exact same thing as embezzling tens of millions of dollars into America
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Jun 17, 2019 21:09
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fnox posted:The reason why Maduro is worse than Pinochet is that unlike Chile, Venezuela will never recover from the damage Maduro has caused to it, Maduro has just loving doomed the country, he's killed thousands directly, many thousands more indirectly, and more will be known once he's out. I kinda dunno what to make of this. Never is a long time. If I took this as truth the logical conclusion would be to declare it an exclusion zone because no amount of help internal or external will fix it. Like your math here is basically "if X=Maduro and Y=Pinochet then X<Y because X=∞" but ∞ is kind of a huge premise to ask people to accept. Like none of the worst dictators in all of history destroyed their country irreparably. You could let Y be anyone and Maduro comes out worse in that metric. You go into all the externalities like people fleeing and getting hosed etc which is fine but why not for Pinochet? An estimated 200,000 people fled Chile during his rule. e: Like, do you have people wandering around Caracas missing limbs and disfigured because the secret police on the regular picked people up almost at random to brutally torture them? Chile did. They wanted their torture to be very visible. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Jun 17, 2019 |
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Jun 17, 2019 21:24
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Even Cambodia is starting to show strong recovery from Pol Pot. Venezuela will be fine after a generation post-PSUV.
punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Jun 17, 2019 |
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Jun 17, 2019 21:33
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I'm refreshing myself on Pinochet's torture squads and concentration camps and frankly lmfao it's not even comparable to the worst propaganda the US says about Venezuela. Like holy goddamn gently caress if Maduro was doing even a tenth of this I'd wholeheartedly support a US cruise missile right up his rear end and let the chips fall where they may.fnox posted:You think this is just about numbers? OK, let's make it about nothing but numbers. How many do you think Maduro has illegally arrested, tortured and killed? How do you think he treats the opposition, and by that I don't mean Guaido, I mean the people you don't hear about. The students, the protesters, the union leaders. It's not even close. Pinochet was literally running concentration camps for tens of thousands of people being tortured, often arbitrarily for no reason just so they could be put back in the population permanently disfigured as a warning to anyone who might want to do anything about it. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Jun 17, 2019 |
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Jun 17, 2019 21:36
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Maduro: Worse than Trujillo.
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Jun 17, 2019 21:38
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punk rebel ecks posted:Even Cambodia is starting to show strong recovery from Pol Pot. Venezuela will be fine after a generation post-PSUV. We're not recovering. The infrastructural damage is extremely severe. We won't be able to shake foreign influence, be it Russian, Chinese or American, for decades. Oil is gonna become less important in the global economy, the brain drain is irreversible, in a time where Venezuela is supposed to be booming we are currently freefalling. The GDP has regressed 30 years in 5 years of Maduro. The death toll, particularly outside of Caracas, it's gonna be in the thousands, easily, and if we ever start digging in into those homicide figures I'm sure far more will be discovered. Evidence of torture is already well established from hundreds that have been captured by SEBIN. Maduro has only admitted to 200 or so deaths from the OLPs, and I am fairly sure the number is much higher. I mean in terms of the sheer amount of people driven into poverty, Maduro is far worse than anything that has ever been in Latin America. He singlehandedly put 90% of the population below the international poverty line, starting from 20%. Moridin920 posted:I'm refreshing myself on Pinochet's torture squads and concentration camps and frankly lmfao it's not even comparable to the worst propaganda the US says about Venezuela. Like holy goddamn gently caress if Maduro was doing even a tenth of this I'd wholeheartedly support a US cruise missile right up his rear end and let the chips fall where they may. How much time you wanna give him to catch up? How long you think it's gonna take for a paranoid autocracy to fully cement itself in power through fear? Have you ever heard of El Helicoide? This is in Caracas, this is a former mall turned into a jail where people are regularly tortured, and I mean tortured, apparently a favorite is to choke people with plastic bags until they piss themselves. SEBIN runs it. You should look it up, just see what you can find about it. If you're a bit less lucky, you get sent to La Tumba. Fellow students were some of the people sent there. They can get you to say anything after a stint there. fnox fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Jun 17, 2019 |
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Jun 17, 2019 23:23
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"Maduro will have done more harm than Pinochet" is a fair statement. If Pinochet had done to Chile the same that Maduro has accomplished so far in terms of the compound effects of leadership, it would still be a particularly horrific condition there. What makes this additionally hard to viscerally process is that the damage is ongoing. There's no condition for "recovery"
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Jun 17, 2019 23:37
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Kavros posted:"Maduro will have done more harm than Pinochet" is a fair statement. If Pinochet had done to Chile the same that Maduro has accomplished so far in terms of the compound effects of leadership, it would still be a particularly horrific condition there. Please explain. There are a lot of big words in this post and I'm at a fifth grade reading level.
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Jun 17, 2019 23:46
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Kavros posted:"Maduro will have done more harm than Pinochet" is a fair statement. If Pinochet had done to Chile the same that Maduro has accomplished so far in terms of the compound effects of leadership, it would still be a particularly horrific condition there. This is the point I'm making. In terms of speed, it only took him 2 years for torture centers for political dissidents to be established. It took him 5 to undo any social progress done in the past 20 years. On every conceivable metric, Venezuela is far worse than it was before Maduro, and this is within the span of a single presidential period. He has, quite literally, accomplished nothing, but the wanton destruction of Venezuelan society, inciting its collapse into anarchy because a weak population is easier to rule. He has started the worst refugee crisis this continent has ever seen, and it shows no signs of stopping. He has made one of the richest countries in the region into one of the most vulnerable. If he's not stopped now, what's coming is much worse. If there's something I have learned out of this whole journey is that it can always get worse. He can always take more, even if you think you have nothing left.
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Jun 17, 2019 23:50
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punk rebel ecks posted:Please explain. There are a lot of big words in this post and I'm at a fifth grade reading level. Maduro is still a lvl.1 Pokemon who hasn't achieved his Pinochet evolution form yet.
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Jun 18, 2019 00:21
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https://twitter.com/RealAlexRubi/status/1140722805417402371 Maduro's enemies are buffoons, and bandits. How do you gently caress up turning popular will against failing Maduro?
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Jun 18, 2019 01:00
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Nonsense posted:Maduro's enemies are buffoons, and bandits. How do you gently caress up turning popular will against failing Maduro? Popular Will was always against Maduro, they just didn't have the popular vote.
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Jun 18, 2019 01:17
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Corky Romanovsky posted:Popular Will was always against Maduro, they just didn't have the popular vote. Nonsense posted:Maduro's enemies are buffoons, and bandits. How do you gently caress up mobilizing the popular will against failing Maduro?
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Jun 18, 2019 03:45
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Kavros posted:"Maduro will have done more harm than Pinochet" is a fair statement. If Pinochet had done to Chile the same that Maduro has accomplished so far in terms of the compound effects of leadership, it would still be a particularly horrific condition there. I think the literally thousands more people that Pinochet systematically murdered than Maduro would strongly disagree. Maduro is unlikely to go on a massive bloodletting. His regime is too weak and he doesn’t have a “kill all Commies” mandate from a foreign patron like Pinochet did.
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Jun 18, 2019 05:28
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Majorian posted:I think the literally thousands more people that Pinochet systematically murdered than Maduro would strongly disagree. Maduro is unlikely to go on a massive bloodletting. His regime is too weak and he doesn’t have a “kill all Commies” mandate from a foreign patron like Pinochet did. Maduro losing control to the people he's devolved power to in order to cover his rear end is totally in the cards, and that has potential to spiral into a bloody civil war assuming a competent opposition faction. of course, that is contingent on an opposition leader stringing together a full week without shooting himself in the dick, so we don't have to worry about it for now, but it's very much a possibility.
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Jun 18, 2019 05:41
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:Maduro losing control to the people he's devolved power to in order to cover his rear end is totally in the cards, and that has potential to spiral into a bloody civil war assuming a competent opposition faction. Of course, it's not unlikely that a right-wing dictatorship replacing Maduro would also result in a bloody civil war. The upshot is, there are lots of ways in which Venezuela's situation could be even worse.
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Jun 18, 2019 06:03
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Majorian posted:I think the literally thousands more people that Pinochet systematically murdered than Maduro would strongly disagree. Maduro is unlikely to go on a massive bloodletting. His regime is too weak and he doesn’t have a “kill all Commies” mandate from a foreign patron like Pinochet did. I mean in fairness, that's not what fnox is going for. Morally, I think we can all agree here that it's hard to find worse examples of humanity than Pinochet. But while Maduro isn't as personally or morally reprehensible, the damage his incompetence has done to Venezuela is comparable, if not greater than the deliberate maliciousness of Pinochet's regime (is what I think fnox is trying to say, I'll be completely honest and say I don't know enough about Pinochet's regime to make a judgement about that). And also to be fair to fnox, when you've lived in a situation like that, it's easy to say "It can't possibly be worse than this," because that's your lived experience. It's human nature, and I don't think it's fair to throw it back at him as somehow indicating a secret desire for a new Pinochet.
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Jun 18, 2019 06:13
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fnox posted:Maduro is worse than Pinochet. That's how you interpret it. Absolutely incredible. What exactly has Maduro done that's even remotely comparable to the mass killings, rapes, and other domestic terrorism of the Pinochet regime?
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Jun 18, 2019 06:33
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I mean in fairness, that's not what fnox is going for. Morally, I think we can all agree here that it's hard to find worse examples of humanity than Pinochet. But while Maduro isn't as personally or morally reprehensible, the damage his incompetence has done to Venezuela is comparable, if not greater than the deliberate maliciousness of Pinochet's regime (is what I think fnox is trying to say, I'll be completely honest and say I don't know enough about Pinochet's regime to make a judgement about that). I get that that's what is being argued, but I still strongly disagree with it. Until Maduro has systematically tortured, murdered, and disappeared tens of thousands of his countrymen, there can be little equivalency drawn. One can't talk about the damage done to the countries in question without addressing the very real lives systematically ruined or ended under the respective regimes. To dismiss the historical atrocities suffered under right-wing U.S.-backed regimes as "sick fantasies" is about as ghoulish as it gets. Wikipedia's got a pretty good summary of the atrocities committed under Pinochet, btw.
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Jun 18, 2019 06:41
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420 Gank Mid posted:Absolutely incredible. What exactly has Maduro done that's even remotely comparable to the mass killings, rapes, and other domestic terrorism of the Pinochet regime? He’s done mass killings, rapes and other domestic terrorism. At a lesser scale, yes, but faster. Meaning if you let him stay in power for the same length of time, the scale of the atrocities will become comparable. You don’t have to try very hard to find some of the horrific abuse Bolivarian security forces have committed against detainees. What Maduro does on top of that is that he also withered away the country to the point that any future government will have an extremely hard time regaining stability. He’s poisoned the wells too. fnox fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Jun 18, 2019 |
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Jun 18, 2019 06:49
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fnox posted:He’s done mass killings, rapes and other domestic terrorism. At a lesser scale, yes, but faster. Meaning if you let him stay in power for the same length of time, the scale of the atrocities will become comparable. You don’t have to try very hard to find some of the horrific abuse Bolivarian security forces have committed against detainees. What mass killings have taken place? When and where? And why should we believe that if Maduro remains in power for as long as Pinochet did (which is extremely unlikely), the scale of his atrocities will be comparable?
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Jun 18, 2019 07:03
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Majorian posted:I think the literally thousands more people that Pinochet systematically murdered than Maduro would strongly disagree. Maduro is unlikely to go on a massive bloodletting. His regime is too weak and he doesn’t have a “kill all Commies” mandate from a foreign patron like Pinochet did. All of what you are saying here can be true and not in any way contradict it being fair to measure Maduro's harm as greater in sum than Pinochet's total consequential suffering. Please note that this isn't an invitation to some sort of utilitarian choice "for" Pinochet - it's an assessment of the tremendous amount of harm that the PSUV is inflicting and a way of underscoring the significance of the impact of years of kleptocratic rulership, regardless of intent or mandate. Neither of which are magical.
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Jun 18, 2019 07:17
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Pinochet had a literacy program too, btw
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Jun 18, 2019 07:38
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Comparing the PSUV to Pinochet is apples and oranges. One will be known for destroying the economy and human capital of its country, while the other is known for mass killings, torture, and banning any form of freedom of the press/expression. This isn't to say there isn't some crossover as Venezuela ranks poorly in freedom of the press and Chile's economy didn't become to what it is today until Pinochet was finally removed, but overall it is a very strange comparison.
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Jun 18, 2019 07:40
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Majorian posted:What mass killings have taken place? When and where? And why should we believe that if Maduro remains in power for as long as Pinochet did (which is extremely unlikely), the scale of his atrocities will be comparable? I’m glad you’ve finally asked. So these are the ones that came to public knowledge in 2016 alone, Tumeremo, Trujillo, in Barlovento, a month later, in Cariaco. Hundreds were executed as part of the OLPs, many of these events don’t really have a Wikipedia page, and were hidden away in Venezuela’s horrendous murder rate. The massacre of Amazonas in 2017 where members of the military executed 39 people, also comes as a nice example of how the bloodletting didn’t end with the OLPs. In particular, the indigenous people of Amazonas have often been victims of security forces, who want to remove them to be able to illegally mine in their land. And that’s just some of the stuff we know about. It’s important to note that the government has always failed to properly punish the perpetrators. The sheer amount of dead in Venezuela’s prisons I’m sure would count as systematic murder, and the atrocities that happen there are only rarely ever known.
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Jun 18, 2019 08:07
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Kavros posted:All of what you are saying here can be true and not in any way contradict it being fair to measure Maduro's harm as greater in sum than Pinochet's total consequential suffering. There’s not much evil that Maduro has done that Pinochet, Videla, or Rios-Montt didn’t also do on top of the tens of thousands of murders and tortures they systematically carried out. People starved in Chile, Argentina, and Guatemala. Those countries had their own refugee crises. There’s really no comparison to be made; saying that Maduro is worse than any of these monsters just doesn’t track.
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Jun 18, 2019 08:16
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Helsing posted:I don't really want to get pulled into the weeds litigating a comparison that doesn't make a lot of sense but if you're going to make statements like this then I think you need to accept that most folks are naturally going to interpret what you wrote here as being the logical equivalent to saying that Pinochet would be better than Maduro. Everything else you're writing kind of furthers that impressions. Yes one could make this comparison, but it'd be pretty stupid and not logical. "I think dog food tastes bad, but poo poo tastes even worse" "lolllll Fnox wants 2 eat dog food every day for breakfast lolllll". It's like the argument a 7 year old would make. Fnox, I think it's time to follow Chuck Boone and abandon ship. The average-poster's politics in D&D is so far left that you're unlikely to run into people who think like this outside of a university campus who are older than 22 at anything remotely close to a regular basis. I mean, you're posting on a forum where many people have unironically added hammer and sickle badges next to their handles. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 18, 2019 08:21
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fnox posted:I’m glad you’ve finally asked. While those are all horrific abuses, they’re not exactly in the same ballpark as what Pinochet did; the examples you cite don’t total up to more than 100 deaths, plus the 500 who reportedly died during OLP. While 600 deaths is terrible, it’s obviously not the same as around 3,000 deliberately murdered as part of a sweeping policy. The fact that, as you point out, Maduro turned a blind eye to these crimes is inexcusable (and certainly makes him worthy of prosecution), but it’s not evidence of a Pinochet-caliber mass extermination policy at play. (e for clarity) Majorian fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Jun 18, 2019 |
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Jun 18, 2019 08:35
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Majorian posted:While those are all horrific abuses, they’re not exactly in the same ballpark as what Pinochet did; the examples you cite don’t total up to more than 100 deaths, plus the 500 who reportedly died during OLP. While 600 deaths is terrible, it’s obviously not the same as around 3,000 deliberately murdered as part of a sweeping policy. The fact that, as you point out, Maduro turned a blind eye to these crimes is inexcusable (and certainly makes him worthy of prosecution), but it’s not evidence of a Pinochet-caliber mass extermination policy at play. Do you think he’s incapable of killing more? What makes you think he’s gonna stop now? Again, 6 years of Maduro. He’s just getting started. The true extent of what has gone on will not be known until he’s gone, much like how has happened with every dictator to date.
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Jun 18, 2019 09:15
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fnox posted:Do you think he’s incapable of killing more? What makes you think he’s gonna stop now? Again, 6 years of Maduro. He’s just getting started. The true extent of what has gone on will not be known until he’s gone, much like how has happened with every dictator to date. I don't see much reason to believe that he's going to somehow amp up the killings in the near future. I also don't see much reason to believe that he's going to last another six years in office, given how weak his regime is.
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Jun 18, 2019 09:18
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So, basically the assertion is now that Maduro is worse than Pinochet because he will do worse things than Pinochet has done by the time he is finished. That's uh, kinda shaky logic.
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Jun 18, 2019 09:44
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Majorian posted:I don't see much reason to believe that he's going to somehow amp up the killings in the near future. I also don't see much reason to believe that he's going to last another six years in office, given how weak his regime is. Hah, now you’re talking like the opposition. Did you know that’s what was said basically every year that Maduro has spent in power? “He won’t make it past 2014”, “no way he’ll survive 2016”. I’m guilty of saying this. The reason why I said this is because I didn’t know what he was really capable of. He’s not weak, he’s prepared to die before handing power. He’ll stay there unless toppled. That the military didn’t rebel against him, that’s not a good sign for anybody. The father of a friend of mine, who I believe is an army colonel, is in the Ramo Verde jail right now for answering the phone on April 30th. He didn’t rebel, he didn’t harm anybody, he just answered the phone when a rebel officer called, and stayed home. Maduro is going to purge any officers that did anything more serious than that.
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Jun 18, 2019 09:46
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