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barkbell posted:Just finished an interview with an in-house corporate recruiter. I told her I was working with 5 recruiting agencies. She said "professional-to-professional" I shouldn't work with anymore and even 5 is too many as companies might end up with multiple copies of my resume and it makes me look desperate. I assume this is a recruiter lie to get me to limit my options. it makes the recruiter look bad if a bunch of randos can do the same thing for less money
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Jun 17, 2019 22:33
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barkbell posted:She was extremely pushy about a number. I said I was changing careers and want see what opportunities are available. Then she threw out a number, which I just remained silent about, so she threw out a bigger number. Then I said I was thinking a little more and upped that number by 15%. She said wow that's a lot more but said she wanted to talk to the team and have them meet me. So I guess I should have thrown out a bigger number. This is a weird process and I am bad at it. You got her to up her initial range twice, it's not like you failed at it. A lot of people who undervalue themselves and give a number first end up below what the first number from the recruiter would be in the first place anyway.
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Jun 17, 2019 22:38
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if i’m interviewing and get multiple copies of the same resume i’m just going to think ‘ffs idiots we already got this one’ and that’d be about it. it wouldn’t even cross my mind to think you were desperate. lol that’s a pretty lovely lie the more i think about it
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Jun 17, 2019 22:38
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Rex-Goliath posted:if i’m interviewing and get multiple copies of the same resume i’m just going to think ‘ffs idiots we already got this one’ and that’d be about it. it wouldn’t even cross my mind to think you were desperate. man i believed that lie for years lmao
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Jun 17, 2019 22:40
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Rex-Goliath posted:if i’m interviewing and get multiple copies of the same resume i’m just going to think ‘ffs idiots we already got this one’ and that’d be about it. it wouldn’t even cross my mind to think you were desperate. i would 100% blame HR for that if i saw it regardless, its a good lie for a recruiting firm to tell so they can keep those sweet sweet commissions to themselves
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Jun 17, 2019 22:43
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MononcQc posted:You got her to up her initial range twice, it's not like you failed at it. A lot of people who undervalue themselves and give a number first end up below what the first number from the recruiter would be in the first place anyway. You say initial range. I'm guessing this comes into play again when the offer comes and I'll have to negotiate more as they might come in under that number? I'm extremely new to this as my past jobs I was mostly just gracious to have a job so I took the first thing coming at me.
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Jun 17, 2019 22:47
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Tbh getting up from that initial range is good, but that was likely a very low estimate anyway. I prob still would've held firm and wait until the team have actually met you, there's a good chance they come back and say no.
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Jun 17, 2019 23:29
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And yeah negotiation is hard if you're not used to it and you're talking to an actual human, don't feel bad about it. If they come back and say no just bait them by saying you're happy to still meet the team and maybe something can be worked out if they decide they want to give you an offer, and then switch back to the original figure you asked for when they do.
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Jun 17, 2019 23:37
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barkbell posted:You say initial range. I'm guessing this comes into play again when the offer comes and I'll have to negotiate more as they might come in under that number? I'm extremely new to this as my past jobs I was mostly just gracious to have a job so I took the first thing coming at me. they won’t come back under her number unless the interview causes the expected job responsibilities to change, or they’re super unprofessional pieces of poo poo. at which point your response is determined by how desperate you are.
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Jun 17, 2019 23:39
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this is day 1 of the job search, wasnt expecting to get hit up this hard so soon ty pos
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Jun 18, 2019 02:01
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Shaggar posted:it makes the recruiter look bad if a bunch of randos can do the same thing for less money it's this Rex-Goliath posted:lol that’s a pretty lovely lie the more i think about it
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Jun 18, 2019 02:33
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they already got back to me and want to do a follow-up call to re-go over salary expectations and start date availability in case they make me an offer give me the big dicc salary advice which i know has been posted 37 times in this thread already
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Jun 18, 2019 12:58
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Captain Foo posted:they already got back to me and want to do a follow-up call to re-go over salary expectations and start date availability in case they make me an offer Do you have other offers? Other interviews lined up? It can make it easier to not give a number if so. Are you in California? I think there are some new laws there which require them to tell you ranges.
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Jun 18, 2019 13:21
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pointsofdata posted:Do you have other offers? Other interviews lined up? It can make it easier to not give a number if so. Are you in California? I think there are some new laws there which require them to tell you ranges. no, no, no but i AM at a Good Job right now, so I need them to give me fatty figgies
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Jun 18, 2019 13:32
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just concentrate way harder on not stating a number than I did i think not stating the first number has succeeded massively every single time in this thread good luck
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Jun 18, 2019 14:21
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You could try taking the lead a bit, ask them what their range for the position is, say you are comfortable where you are and are exploring the market etc. It'll be a hard conversation but at least you aren't desperate for a move.
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Jun 18, 2019 14:22
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Start the call off with a diatribe about how figgies are a logarithmic scale and they better be showing up with a p. deece 6.5
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Jun 18, 2019 14:34
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goons are too insistent on NEVER saying a number first NO MATTER WHAT. there was even some person in this thread whose refusal to say anything salary-wise made a conversation awkward and unnatural and probably contributed to them not getting the job. if you know what you need to be happy, and you know the market rate, it's ok to say a number first
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Jun 18, 2019 14:43
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Pie Colony posted:goons are too insistent on NEVER saying a number first NO MATTER WHAT. there was even some person in this thread whose refusal to say anything salary-wise made a conversation awkward and unnatural and probably contributed to them not getting the job. if you know what you need to be happy, and you know the market rate, it's ok to say a number first im gonna look at your redtext and then reply with a "k"
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Jun 18, 2019 14:47
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Pie Colony posted:goons are too insistent on NEVER saying a number first NO MATTER WHAT. there was even some person in this thread whose refusal to say anything salary-wise made a conversation awkward and unnatural and probably contributed to them not getting the job. if you know what you need to be happy, and you know the market rate, it's ok to say a number first Yeah the key is that most interviewees don't actually know the market rate, and giving a number means you won't get that.
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Jun 18, 2019 14:48
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Pie Colony posted:goons are too insistent on NEVER saying a number first NO MATTER WHAT. there was even some person in this thread whose refusal to say anything salary-wise made a conversation awkward and unnatural and probably contributed to them not getting the job. if you know what you need to be happy, and you know the market rate, it's ok to say a number first As long as it results in total comp over 300k, sure
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Jun 18, 2019 14:48
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If you know their (actual) range saying a higher number to anchor the conversation to their highest end to start with is better than letting them say the low end of the range and working up. I would not just say whatever you think the market rate is though, go higher if you're opening. This probably goes without saying at this point but you need to be okay with not getting the job to negotiate well.
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Jun 18, 2019 14:49
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Pie Colony posted:goons are too insistent on NEVER saying a number first NO MATTER WHAT. there was even some person in this thread whose refusal to say anything salary-wise made a conversation awkward and unnatural and probably contributed to them not getting the job. if you know what you need to be happy, and you know the market rate, it's ok to say a number first Yeah that's fair. The advice on "never saying a number first" comes from folks who think they're asking for outrageous money, but then they find out it's still a joke of a salary for the company they're interviewing with. Personally I've had that proof multiple times in my career. - First job had a top level architect get kicked off the board and fired after raising a stink because he gunned for me to get more money than I should as a self-taught guy, which hosed with the pay scales they had privately established. This made me super shy to ask for more money. Numbers are fuzzy, but that was ~10 years ago and I probably got a raise from $32,500 CAD to $37,500 CAD. - Second job, I gave my current price, was remote and gave me an okay raise (another $5k iirc, which is a decent % all things considered) - Third job I just gave the number I was currently earning, they offered to raise me by about $10k. When I came back to second job with that value, they instantly offered to match it, which is how I knew they were super happy to under-pay me - Fourth job I gave a number I felt was ridiculous and would give me almost a 60% raise. This turned out to be a remote job for a US company, and my ask was so low I didn't even register on their established pay scales for remote folks in non-metro centers. They had to counter with something that was more than twice what I was earning at the time. The third job couldn't match it, and that was the first signal that "Holy poo poo, there is money in the system, I'm no longer working for small regional outfits that are scraping by". - Fourth job gave me three raises and promotions in four years -- though I had to gun for the last one - Fifth job I just accepted to do a sideways move for a bit less money because I wanted out of the previous job, so I gave them my number and they gave the same exact one, but had less interesting stock options - Last interview round a few weeks ago I absolutely held my cards close to my chest, and all (bay area) companies I interviewed with gave me offers that were 60-75% above what my current wage is. The traps we tend to fall into include things such as: underestimating how much money is in the system and just kept away from the workforce, how fast this bubble market inflates every year (that's a major one) which tends to mean raises never follow the market, how much value there is in the additional experience you acquired since last time you looked for a job, how difficult it's been for them to find people, and how all companies without a pre-established salary grid are ready to negotiate the hell out of things. Ask yourself how much your current employer would pay in university fees or seminars to give you the last couple of years of experience you got there, and compare it to what your next employer will save if you give your current number and just add a small 3% on top of it. So yeah, never giving a number to the point where you shut yourself out of the interview is bad, but "never give the first number" is more of a tip to get you to stop being the one person to undercut yourself, and instead gun for what could be much higher than what you feel is reasonable, because it often turns out to be totally reasonable.
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Jun 18, 2019 15:02
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silvergoose posted:Yeah the key is that most interviewees don't actually know the market rate, and giving a number means you won't get that. it depends on how long you've worked in the industry and how many interviews you've done. after a certain point, not knowing is a failure on part of the interviewee bob dobbs is dead posted:As long as it results in total comp over 300k, sure i never said the number has to be low (or equal to the market rate). that being said, there are some companies where saying too high a number will also get you laughed out the door. do you want to work for these companies? well, depends how desperate you are
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Jun 18, 2019 15:05
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Tldr: as long as the total comp number is above 300k, you can say number first If you're already getting paid that spend some of those figgies doing a formal negotiating course
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Jun 18, 2019 15:06
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If you're feeling forced to give a number, you can still try and qualify it with how bad you felt it is. "I was earning $x, but I'm partly leaving because I felt this was inadequate, under market value. I was underpaid, and they couldn't afford to offer more." ($x can be higher than what you're earning right now I guess? Nobody's gonna go look at your private paperwork) At least it tells them "this is a number, but if you shoot close to that it won't be good enough at all."
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Jun 18, 2019 15:10
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glassdoor avg for location and position is like 30k above my current 5 figgies so i gotta not reverse sticker shock myself
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Jun 18, 2019 15:11
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also thank you for the effortpost
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Jun 18, 2019 15:12
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i’d simplify it further and say that if you’ve never been on the money side of things you should not say a number because you genuinely are clueless (me). once you’ve crossed over and seen the backend and have the experience to make reasonable estimates on how other companies work it’s fine to go first since you actually understand how it works. i’m assuming you need 10 years experience at a minimum to hit this point and many people never reach it in their entire career
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Jun 18, 2019 15:16
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I'm in California, so the next time I'm negotiating an offer, I want to ask for "at least more than my current salary" and when they go "well what's your current salary?" I can go "GOTCHA!" and do a citizen's arrest. Now I'm HR.
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Jun 18, 2019 15:17
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I moved jobs and more than doubled total comp and am now way above "market" rate. If you base your number on the market rate you won't get the benefit of any niche skills you have or any lucky breaks you get (maybe the place you are speaking to has been searching for ages and just had another team member go on leave for 6 months!). Sure if you are obviously a replacement rate automaton ask for the going rate + 20%, you probably aren't though and thinking carefully about how to handle these conversations is well worth the effort. e: also the company you are applying to might pay well above the market rate - this is normally fairly obvious but you can't be certain. distortion park fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Jun 18, 2019 |
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Jun 18, 2019 15:18
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yeah i’ve also burrowed myself into an extremely niche but valuable tech so there’s almost no market out there to compare myself to. there’s maybe a couple hundred of us globally. knowing what any individual company is willing to pay is almost impossible
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Jun 18, 2019 15:26
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CPColin posted:I'm in California, so the next time I'm negotiating an offer, I want to ask for "at least more than my current salary" and when they go "well what's your current salary?" I can go "GOTCHA!" and do a citizen's arrest. Now I'm HR. in california they're required to answer the followup of "whats the range for this position"
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Jun 18, 2019 15:29
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You're usually gonna do the negotiating part after the interview bit, so you can think of some data-gathering questions to ask during interview rounds: - what would be my role here, how would you see me fitting in? find if it's above some people, what contributions they expect (specialist, generalist, etc.) - who else would I be working with? are they experienced folks where you join a well-run team, a new team they're doing as part of expanding efforts, replacing old timers that have left, entry level? - How many other employees does the company have? are they growing fast? - Are you going to work on components that are considered legacy, debt, mature, cash cows, or the future of their stack? - Where do they see the company going in the next few years, what's their plan? You can generally ask them about these when you get to interview with someone higher up, and they'll possibly think that you have a good mind for a big picture and that's super good to them too. Essentially, if you've got little experience and are going for a position that asks for little experience, you likely underestimate the market value. If you're going for an experienced position, you likely can get a hop higher in the org chart than you currently have (because that's how most promotions are given, it's like switching insurance companies), so basing yourself off your current comp can mean you're underestimating the value. If you're going for a cash cow or their future product, they have the money. If they have recently been funded, they have the money. If they are expanding and growing, they have the money. If they have fat profit margins or recently had a good positive IPO, they have the money (and a bunch of people to replace when the first cliff hits and they cash in) If you are going on a legacy component and they've been looking for a long time, you can get more money. The tricky places that will say no and laugh you out of the building, unless you are truly giving egregious numbers, are going to be companies that are going to underpay because they have a legacy product in a cost center (they don't consider it to be bringing in money and don't realize it's keeping the lights on), and are looking to replace some experienced employee leaving soon (or who left recently). They never gave them adequate raises to and have not yet had the surprise of spending 6-18 months trying to hire a replacement to find out nobody else will accept that kind of money. When they laugh, it's in shock at how high the value is, but given enough time they'll often have to realize that holy gently caress, the market really just did grow that much. They're also likely to be a huge loving pain in the rear end because managerial pressure will always be directed towards cost saving and under-investment, so make sure other things will be worth it if you end up going there. Other companies might just go "that's more than we can afford", give a counter-offer, and then it's up to you to take your number down or to go look elsewhere. It happens. If you need to, take the job, but keep looking. It's easier to negotiate when your back isn't against the wall for rent. A short stint at a company for this is easy to explain in future interviews anyway ("I know this was a short time, but I got offered a lot more elsewhere and I couldn't say no") MononcQc fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Jun 18, 2019 |
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Jun 18, 2019 15:31
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"Never give a number first" is not hard and fast, but you should be delaying talk about compensation until the last possible minute i.e until you know they are giving you an offer. You need to know they want you and you want them. If you are going to say a number first, you really do need to have a solid idea of what the market rate is, what that company is likely to pay, and what individual value you add to the role. There's a lot of variables there that if you don't know them, you should seriously be trying to force the ball into their court as much as possible. Here's the key thing though, don't let them bully you into stating your salary expectations before they have conclusively decided you are the best person for the job. The goal is to deliver a vision of the team with you on it and have them modify their own expectations to make that happen. You can say a number if you want, but just understand that it puts you at a huge disadvantage in negotiation if you don't know what to ask for.
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Jun 18, 2019 15:55
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yeah it's definitely a yellow flag when comp talk comes before its time to make an offer, unless its just apprising you of the range for the role if some company's primary concern is saving 10k even 50k on a hire, just lol
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Jun 18, 2019 16:36
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CPColin posted:I'm in California, so the next time I'm negotiating an offer, I want to ask for "at least more than my current salary" and when they go "well what's your current salary?" I can go "GOTCHA!" and do a citizen's arrest. Now I'm HR.
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Jun 18, 2019 16:37
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remember, even if you know the average salary for the position, half of the people are making more than that. the other half are the people who didn't negotiate. so if you're stating the first number, don't say you want the average for the position. that's selling yourself way short.
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Jun 18, 2019 16:45
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Jabor posted:remember, even if you know the average salary for the position, half of the people are making more than that. the other half are the people who didn't negotiate. This is good
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Jun 18, 2019 17:49
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Mao Zedong Thot posted:yeah it's definitely a yellow flag when comp talk comes before its time to make an offer, unless its just apprising you of the range for the role I brought it up early constantly in my last job search but that's mostly because "senior designer" is a job title with a like 200k wide salary band even lead/principal jobs I was being sent had some crazy low ranges
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Jun 18, 2019 20:08
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