|
I still maintain Darujhistan ruins everything.
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2019 18:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 06:49 |
|
|
it sounds like it's real pretty at night there
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2019 20:12
|
|
|
anilEhilated posted:I still maintain Darujhistan ruins everything. Not disagreeing with you. Most of the people of Darujhistan are just trying to get away from Kruppe. Can you blame them for being terrible in response to constant never-ending exposure to the First Sword/Destraint/Shield Anvil of Mockra aka Kruppe?
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2019 20:15
|
|
|
Jan posted:Welcome to Malazan. Get used to this feeling, it only grows with each book. Until your homeboys don't show up for an entire book and you make new ones instead. Or specifically, one large new Teblor homeboy. The thing I liked about that particular homeboy was gradually working out that this guy wasn't a normal sized person in the intro. Everything was scaled to him, including time passing. What would these "Children" be and it's only been like a generation since his grandpappy went down and... oh. Oh.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2019 01:59
|
|
|
The Bonehunters chapters 8-16 After all the excitement of the first section of the book this middle part is a bit of a slog as everyone gets back to their usual task of wandering around deserts and prairies. There are some dog fights and some god fights and Ganoes Paran becomes a yu-gi-oh wizard. We also get to see how Midnight Tides gets drawn into the main plot along with our main characters. It looks like Rhulad really is hosting a mortal kombat tournament. I hope one of the top ranking Seguleh shows up when that happens.
|
|
#
?
Jun 9, 2019 12:52
|
|
|
i finished deadhouse gates finally i've never read a book that ended with ten thousand people being crucified after being betrayed by supposed allies, and an old man dying without ever knowing the name of a woman he had feelings for that was also hopeful as poo poo, like the scene with mappo and stormy and gesler and truth and then the epilogue are both "yeah everything sucks, but its not the end, and sometimes the tiniest victories are the most meaningful" shout out the real hero of the book though lapdog who joined the wickan cattle dogs, the only member of the nobles to not be a shithead
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2019 04:54
|
|
|
BENGHAZI 2 posted:shout out the real hero of the book though lapdog who joined the wickan cattle dogs, the only member of the nobles to not be a shithead
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2019 14:41
|
|
|
Yeah, the Malazan series can get dark but it's rarely nihilistic, which is one of the things I like about it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2019 14:48
|
|
|
Yeah it has a humane warmth at its centre that’s something to hold onto through all the despair. It’s a bit mawkish sometimes, but it works just as often.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2019 17:16
|
|
|
There is some grimdark and some cringe, but the series just has so much heart that it more than balances out. Also, Erickson is excellent at what I guess you could call epic humor, so it never just wallows in the negative stuff and even laughs at it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2019 19:46
|
|
|
The Bonehunters chapters 17-24 This last section of the book felt a bit messy and ended up being suffering from the worst case of "middle book syndrome" so far in the series, with a bunch of plot threads left hanging and some being resolved unsatisfactorily. The book in general had way too many character groups and plot lines going on which was a bit jarring coming straight off the more focused Midnight Tides. Crazy poo poo goes down with jade meteors, a whole friendly fleet appearing out of nowhere, Edur become cut-rate cenobites and Icarium goes super saiyan. Kalam goes on a killing spree and he will probably be promoted to some sort of murder god. Assuming Apsalar doesn't get there first. The Oponn twins show up for the first time since the first book and get wrecked again. Poor Crokus should retire from adventuring and become a shopkeep or something. Laseen seems a bit hosed and now Ganoes Paran is in charge of the only army left in the empire. Maybe he will depose Laseen and become god-emperor. The Crippled God seems to be engineering a mega convergence at Lether. Or perhaps he is being played by the other gods. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 12, 2019 09:30
|
|
|
NoNotTheMindProbe posted:The Bonehunters chapters 17-24 Are you *sure* that's their first appearance since Gardens? That's not a spoiler, I'm just paranoid enough that any instance of bad luck or sudden forgetfulness is clear evidence of the Twins pulling strings. Or pushing strings.
|
|
#
?
Jun 15, 2019 22:55
|
|
|
Reaper's Gale Prologue + Chapters 1 - 12 Everyone's lining up to take down the Letherii empire and Rhulad has gathered his champions for the tournament. I'm glad to see a Seguleh was invited as well as a clown monk. I think Karsa will end up killing the Emperor as Icarium would just nuke the whole story. In one of the earlier books Amonader Rake tells another character that they couldn't pronounce his full name so Anomander Rake is good enough. Then it turns out his full name is Anomadaris Purake lol. His brother is almost as edgy as he is, but isn't an albino Andii a Liosan? It looks like the elder gods are going to fight against the new gods except for Mael and K'rul. But all the most badass mortals and monsters are gathering in Lether for their own reasons and the Crippled God is something of a wild card himself. The books are starting to get a bit ponderous with all the characters and plots going on. While it's reasonable for the greater narrative that the Malazans show up half way through the book, it feels clumsy from a writing perspective to not have all the pieces in play in the intro section. A minor gripe that I accepted when deciding to read a 10 book series but it still niggles nonetheless.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2019 09:07
|
|
|
NoNotTheMindProbe posted:In one of the earlier books Amonader Rake tells another character that they couldn't pronounce his full name so Anomander Rake is good enough. Then it turns out his full name is Anomadaris Purake lol. His brother is almost as edgy as he is, but isn't an albino Andii a Liosan? Oh don't worry there's several more syllables and apostrophes coming later. Liosan have light coloring but they aren't albino, think like Scandinavian pigmentation. Silchas is always described as somewhat freakish.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2019 19:15
|
|
|
CoolHandMat posted:basic theory on the Aren massacare: KR reveal You have to be worthy of the Throne of the Imass, and its not a true command and they follow type of Throne. As we recall, Kellenved uses that tactic in Li Heng which had a Jaghut freeze the river in during the invasion. So Aren probably had some Jaghut influencing the city in the background, and a bunch of civilians got killed as they went to war with the Jaghut in Aren. Traveller spoilers Aren is in seven cities, so then the Imass have probably met Daseem. When they discard Tool and make Daseem their own Sword (also making him the God of tragedy...) that might also change the dynamic of commanding the Imass
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2019 20:03
|
|
|
pile of brown posted:Oh don't worry there's several more syllables and apostrophes coming later. Yeah, the thing that Liosan have that Silchas doesn't is 100% refined 
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2019 17:21
|
|
|
NoNotTheMindProbe posted:The books are starting to get a bit ponderous with all the characters and plots going on. While it's reasonable for the greater narrative that the Malazans show up half way through the book, it feels clumsy from a writing perspective to not have all the pieces in play in the intro section. A minor gripe that I accepted when deciding to read a 10 book series but it still niggles nonetheless. Yeah this is the point in the series where the books start to get a little too back-loaded. Erikson uses the first half of this book to explore how the Edur occupation of Lether is changing both societies for the worse, but it's a tall ask for the reader to hang on and wait for the Malazans to show up and for Karsa and Icarium to pay off.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2019 18:27
|
|
|
If they'd been introduced in a more timely manner we wouldn't have got the great "oh gently caress its the Malazans" moment.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2019 18:49
|
|
|
pile of brown posted:Oh don't worry there's several more syllables and apostrophes coming later. Silchas being albino is kinda the least odd thing about him. I think erikson tries to make a point about him being closest to Mother Dark despite being albino.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2019 19:46
|
|
|
kingturnip posted:Yeah, the thing that Liosan have that Silchas doesn't is 100% refined
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2019 20:05
|
|
|
Infinite Karma posted:Basically, the Kharkanas trilogy hosed up explaining that backstory and now we may never know because Walk in Shadow is shelved indefinitely. Everything in the MBotF main series about the Andii politics and families seems to be written in permanent euphemism. Erikson likes to play with the idea that, like actual history, we're going by corrupted and second-hand sources and some stuff may have been lost or subtletly forgotten, so what people say happened and actually did diverge. Which is great for him, he's an archaeologist. But not great if you want a definitive answer about aspects of his world building. It's a pretty groovy way to avoid having to be consistent in your cross referencing I guess.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2019 20:28
|
|
|
Re: the Seguleh in RG, this is where Karsa went from annoyingly precious to outright intolerable for me. Total Worf Effect on your own unstoppable badass warrior society
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2019 15:39
|
|
|
thumper57 posted:Re: the Seguleh in RG, this is where Karsa went from annoyingly precious to outright intolerable for me. Total Worf Effect on your own unstoppable badass warrior society I see where you're coming from and I pretty much hated Karsa through all of House of Chains, but this is pretty much exactly how you'd expect a fight between a 12 foot tall magic proof barbarian who is well on his way to ascendancy to go against someone with less than half his size and reach who trained with a sword a lot, but isn't anywhere near ascendancy..
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2019 17:27
|
|
|
Infinite Karma posted:Basically, the Kharkanas trilogy hosed up explaining that backstory and now we may never know because Walk in Shadow is shelved indefinitely I'm interested to see if he changes things up for Walk in Shadow (if/when he writes it) given that a bunch of readers apparently didn't bother with Fall of Light. I certainly had my issues with the book (more so than Forge of Darkness) but they didn't relate to the story, just the way it was told. So yeah, I'd be interested to see if he's looked for any feedback, or if he's confident(/stubborn) enough to do it his own way. /\ /\ /\ I feel like the XP requirements for Ascendancy among the Toblakai should be pretty high
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2019 17:33
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:Erikson likes to play with the idea that, like actual history, we're going by corrupted and second-hand sources and some stuff may have been lost or subtletly forgotten, so what people say happened and actually did diverge. Which is great for him, he's an archaeologist. But not great if you want a definitive answer about aspects of his world building. If I get definite answers in a fantasy novel, I am reading a RPG manual. This is one of the most important facets of what constitutes good fantasy for me. Everything don’t have to be explained.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2019 18:13
|
|
|
kingturnip posted:I'm interested to see if he changes things up for Walk in Shadow (if/when he writes it) given that a bunch of readers apparently didn't bother with Fall of Light. My problem is that he wrote a prequel series to show what happened in a mythic time that was hinted at during his million-word fantasy epic... and then didn't do that. He started his story at an uninteresting point and started presumably working towards an interesting point, but that interesting point never really came. So now he's either got one book to describe a Tiste diapora following their civil war, a Tiste Edur refugee movement (along with a magical awakening to make them Edur) and its subsequent "sundering", a Jaghut War on Death (that probably fails successfully somehow), the creation of magic/warrens by K'rul, a war against the dragons/T'iam that created a whole bunch of Tiste soletaken, and a plot for Draconus/Dragnipur that hasn't been foreshadowed enough for me to decide where it's going... or he wrote himself into a slow-burning corner where he can't actually tie up the plot threads he is halfway through, and the story has no climax.
|
|
#
?
Jun 19, 2019 18:37
|
|
|
89% through Assail. One of the more enjoyable esselmont books. On to the bauchelain novellas next. Goddamn did I hate what esselmont did with greymane and the following book set in the loving jungle. Jfc that whole book was pointless
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 01:20
|
|
|
Hooray. finally someone who dislikes Karsa as well showed up. I honestly think he stopped being interesting after HoC.
|
|
#
?
Jun 20, 2019 08:47
|
|
|
I've never liked Karsa.  Though I do think he got slightly more tolerable as the books went on because he featured less.
|
|
#
?
Jun 21, 2019 19:47
|
|
|
See, for me Karsa became the fireworks factory to a dozen Poochies.
|
|
#
?
Jun 22, 2019 04:16
|
|
|
i didn't much like Karsa at the start of HoC, but I like the matured Karsa of the later parts of Reaper's Gale and all of Toll the Hounds a great deal. He is right about civilization, after all.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 16:32
|
|
|
The author has written an essay on that particular character. http://www.steven-erikson.com/index.php?s=Karsa
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 19:25
|
|
|
Well first off, people always refer to Karsa as a "subversion" of the noble savage (including Erikson himself in that essay), I'll admit I don't really get how anything is being subverted - by subverting does he just mean playing it straight? Or is the big revelation the fact that Karsa's journey from barbaric society -> civilized society is a journey from disorganized atrocities -> organized atrocities? Am I too dumb for this subtlety, or is everyone just nodding sagely because they like how this big guy kills lots of stuff and bangs unwilling chicks till they like it? My main objection to the character though is that he kind of gets crammed down your throat constantly, but ultimately has pretty much nothing to do with the overall story. In HoC it's an insanely in-depth bit of background for one of Sha'ik's bodyguards we met briefly in the previous book... but then he doesn't factor into the resolution of the Sha'ik story at all, because the character leveled up and went on a sidequest to spend his XP on the "advanced mount" perk. Then in Bonehunters he has a bunch of irrelevant side adventures killing a big irrelevant monster in an irrelevant fallen city, the XP from which is enough for him to level up again and have another sidequest to get the "magic weapon" perk. I mostly read people going "OMG he's so badass he killed like 30 guys no problem" but, like, this is fiction, and he can kill as many guys as the author wants him to... I think for "this is so badass" to work, you have to be a little less naked with your "gently caress yes I love this character I invented". Again using the Seguleh fight as an example - like sure, OK, I guess it makes sense, but it jobs the Seguleh out so badly that you can't take the later scene where Fiddler and Cuttle see her escaping seriously. Why are you scared of this superhuman warrior, she just fell down without even hitting her opponent like 50 pages ago... edit: Forgot the other thing that set off my "author loves his own character too much" alarm, when as things go on he uses him more and more to try and give the rub to other characters, so you go "Aha, if even this guy who literally never loses thinks this new character is bad-rear end, he must be really something!" I actually didn't have any interest at all in the Karsa trilogy, but Erikson saying the first book will be mostly non-Karsa, dealing with the aftermath of all his BS in the main series makes me kind of interested. If he actually has to deal with the repercussions of all the nonsense he gets up to and, you know, loses once in a while/is humbled, maybe it'll be interesting. thumper57 fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Jun 24, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 23:16
|
|
|
thumper57 posted:Well first off, people always refer to Karsa as a "subversion" of the noble savage (including Erikson himself in that essay), I'll admit I don't really get how anything is being subverted - by subverting does he just mean playing it straight? Or is the big revelation the fact that Karsa's journey from barbaric society -> civilized society is a journey from disorganized atrocities -> organized atrocities? Am I too dumb for this subtlety, or is everyone just nodding sagely because they like how this big guy kills lots of stuff and bangs unwilling chicks till they like it? I hate "subversion" in the tvtropes sense, and I feel it doubly doesn't apply to Karsa. When we talk about a noble savage I tend to think of someone like Tonto, or the Na'Vi, or similar portrayals of tribal cultures that paint them as naive, more than noble. It's patronising (because it implies that they're in this state of grace through no will of their own) and also nihilistic (like Erikson says in that article) because it paints civilisation as this terrible inescapable force. Karsa isn't naive - he starts out that way in HoC, but quickly comes to understand civilisation, and rather than setting out to dominate it, he wants to dismantle it (and then dominate the remains). In Karsa's world it's only right that the strong rule the weak, as long as you know who the strong are, so that you can go kick them in the face when you're strong enough to beat them. I have absolutely no anthropological training, but it seems that Erikson is really keen on the idea of civilisation as an obfuscation of power structures. (Is that Gramsci?) Letheras talks a bit talk about being free and celebrating individual rights, but everybody is trapped by their wealth and class; the Edur have a highly formalised society, but because the rules are explicit they can navigate them with ease and express real emotion, while back in Kharkanas everybody is trapped by formality and station, and the only time anyone has a real meaningful conversation is when they through decorum and etiquette out the window; the Jaghut collapsed their whole civilisation to avoid the tyranny that comes with it. Pretty much all the "good" societies in the books are those where all the hierarchy is explicit and out in the open - the Malazan army, pre-ritual Imass, both groups of Andii, the Shake, etc etc. So part of the fun of Karsa is that in the midst of 3.2 million words of philosophising, there's this one giant dude who decides to pick up a sword and single-handedly smash the problem. As to being a constant badass - I don't have a problem with it because I'm more interested in following the people around him. Like Paul Muad'Dib in Dune or Kellhus in Prince of Nothing the fun doesn't come from watching an unstoppable superhuman overcome all obstacles, it's about seeing all the rest of the characters react to the existence of an unstoppable superhuman. Ian M Banks called it an "outside context problem", when something so far above your knowledge and capabilities arrives on the scene, and suddenly you're not the top of the food chain anymore.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 00:08
|
|
|
thumper57 posted:Well first off, people always refer to Karsa as a "subversion" of the noble savage (including Erikson himself in that essay), I'll admit I don't really get how anything is being subverted - by subverting does he just mean playing it straight? Or is the big revelation the fact that Karsa's journey from barbaric society -> civilized society is a journey from disorganized atrocities -> organized atrocities? Am I too dumb for this subtlety, or is everyone just nodding sagely because they like how this big guy kills lots of stuff and bangs unwilling chicks till they like it?
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 00:26
|
|
|
Infinite Karma posted:It's a subversion because he isn't "noble" in his savagery or ignorance. There's no folksy wisdom or insight into civilization's flaws stemming from his caveman ways. He's just savage and ignorant and violent. And likewise, civilization doesn't make him horrible and petty like all the civilized people... it actually teaches him empathy. Erikson also messes with the noble savage trope with the Barghast. Common wisdom of the world is that they're gross, stupid savages, but once we get to know them, they seem above the petty politicking and backstabbing of the "civilized" Malazan, like maybe the simple warrior nomads could teach a lesson to the protagonists... and then oops nope, they actually are gross violent monsters and are no good. Exactly so. Even his father in the book spells out this explicitly. And as far as the Barghast, yeah, he goes out of his way to show that basically every culture is capable of being gross monsters and idealizing "savage" cultures is stupid. The Tiste series also does this with "no this ancient noble race of elves is also loving disgusting and terrible" Jaghut culture is probably Eriksons ideal. e: thumper57 posted:Well first off, people always refer to Karsa as a "subversion" of the noble savage (including Erikson himself in that essay), I'll admit I don't really get how anything is being subverted - by subverting does he just mean playing it straight? Or is the big revelation the fact that Karsa's journey from barbaric society -> civilized society is a journey from disorganized atrocities -> organized atrocities? Am I too dumb for this subtlety, or is everyone just nodding sagely because they like how this big guy kills lots of stuff and bangs unwilling chicks till they like it? Maybe too dumb. You're supposed to be horrified by how he behaves in his introduction, but since it's written from his view he thinks he's amazing. By later on in the books he basically kills nobody who isn't also a bad person. Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Jun 25, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 02:26
|
|
|
thumper57 posted:edit: Forgot the other thing that set off my "author loves his own character too much" alarm, when as things go on he uses him more and more to try and give the rub to other characters, so you go "Aha, if even this guy who literally never loses thinks this new character is bad-rear end, he must be really something!" I think maybe Erickson started thinking this too, because Karsa displays some humility in the later books. In Toll the Hounds when Dassem and Anomander are fighting to the death Karsa pretty much says no way no how not messing with either of those two.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 03:38
|
|
|
Reapers Gale chapters 13-24 and epilogue: Too many rap'es This was by far the longest and most exhausting book in the series so far. Just thinking about writing this post had me immediately thinking about reasons to procrastinate. There were so many characters that I found myself struggling to remember who everyone was and what they did. Thankfully Erikson kills a huge chunk of them off in the last chapter or so, but brings some old ones back from the dead and it looks like the Bonehunters will be marching off somewhere else in future books. Not that I dislike Letheras and there are still plot points to resolve Icarium and the Errant mostly but I'm glad all the palace plotting is over for now. Rhulad's tournament was a bit of a whiff. I wanted a full on Mortal Kombat series with thugs of all nations killing each other. What we got was OK but didn't match two books worth of build up. Does every female character in this series get raped or have rape in their back story? Erikson always portrays it as a Bad Thing but it's starting to come off as exploitative and a bit fetishy. #notallnoblesavages This book did wrap up a bunch of ongoing plot lines. I still don't see where or how the series will climax but I'm still along for the ride.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 09:05
|
|
|
Reaper's Gale sucks and it alongside the Bonehunters (which I otherwise like a lot) suffer from the biggest case of "part of a series" syndrome. Toll the Hounds is a lot more focused and imo still the best book
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 10:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 06:49 |
|
|
Reaper’s Gale has Tool realize that he just saw Toc die so it is actually good. I’ve gone back and read that scene and it still gets to me.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 11:10
|
|
