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Speaking of Cathars, is there any other reason to convert other than to get Absolute Cognatic? Presumably you need to be out and not secret to do this? And presumably you keep Absolute Cognatic after your Cathar ruler dies and is replaced by a Catholic?
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Jun 19, 2019 16:33
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OneSizeFitsAll posted:Speaking of Cathars, is there any other reason to convert other than to get Absolute Cognatic? Presumably you need to be out and not secret to do this? And presumably you keep Absolute Cognatic after your Cathar ruler dies and is replaced by a Catholic? no, yes, yes respectively.
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Jun 19, 2019 16:36
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Thank you sir.
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Jun 19, 2019 17:00
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Coolguye posted:no, yes, yes respectively. That is a much shorter path than I took with the whole Tolerance 6 and a shitload of other laws...
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Jun 19, 2019 17:15
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OneSizeFitsAll posted:Speaking of Cathars, is there any other reason to convert other than to get Absolute Cognatic? Presumably you need to be out and not secret to do this? And presumably you keep Absolute Cognatic after your Cathar ruler dies and is replaced by a Catholic? You also get to wage holy war on Catholics, and it can be a fun roleplaying angle
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Jun 19, 2019 17:28
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Warmachine posted:That is a much shorter path than I took with the whole Tolerance 6 and a shitload of other laws... it's also why i value basque culture so highly. go basque one lifetime by getting a basque wife or something, go abcog in the year 800. female rulers will still get opinion penalties so it's nonideal compared to tolerance 6 but you can get it done with like 2% of the effort.
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Jun 19, 2019 17:31
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Woah. I assumed you were force switched back after losing the culture/religion. I guess I know tonights project. My current character finds Cathar bibles under his pillow on a semi daily basis.
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Jun 19, 2019 18:57
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Largely religion is supposed to be an aesthetic choice more than a treasure trove of mechanics, although later DLCs have really skewed things.
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Jun 19, 2019 19:00
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i don't think i agree on that. religion has fundamentally changed the way the game is played ever since sword of islam came out and gave you an actual non-catholic choice. it's always been a pretty big choice in the game about religious warfare, the difference is just that for a long while there wasn't a substantial choice to make.
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Jun 19, 2019 19:04
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Coolguye posted:i don't think i agree on that. religion has fundamentally changed the way the game is played ever since sword of islam came out and gave you an actual non-catholic choice. it's always been a pretty big choice in the game about religious warfare, the difference is just that for a long while there wasn't a substantial choice to make. Gonna have to agree with this. Religion is the opposite of an aesthetic choice in CK2, and was never intended to be aesthetic in a game ostensibly about the Crusader Kings.
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Jun 19, 2019 19:11
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Yeah, if anything I always felt it was crippling to play Catholic UNTIL Holy Fury, where there's actual incentives to be part of the blob. Of course for personal reasons I find it impossible to want to stay Christian on any character, but you know, those Crusade payouts are extremely nice.
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Jun 19, 2019 20:44
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Speaking of, if your religion is a heresy is it still possible to convert tribal pagans? All the Germanics are ready to pop over to feudalism but I don't seem to have much luck sending my cathar chaplains (including a guy with 37 learning, who I've ransomed back like 20 times).
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Jun 19, 2019 20:45
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Coolguye posted:i don't think i agree on that. religion has fundamentally changed the way the game is played ever since sword of islam came out and gave you an actual non-catholic choice. it's always been a pretty big choice in the game about religious warfare, the difference is just that for a long while there wasn't a substantial choice to make. Religion is THE biggest difference from character to character of similar rank, apart from government type. And even here, having the right religion is the requirement to have Iqta or Monastic Feudal. Whether you're French or Swedish makes no big difference, but the differences between a Swedish Christian or a Swedish pagan are huge.
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Jun 19, 2019 20:45
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Speaking of, if your religion is a heresy is it still possible to convert tribal pagans? All the Germanics are ready to pop over to feudalism but I don't seem to have much luck sending my cathar chaplains (including a guy with 37 learning, who I've ransomed back like 20 times). I'm pretty sure I've successfully sent heretic Cathar chaplains to convert Pagans and had it work, but it was pre-Holy Fury.
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Jun 19, 2019 20:48
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If you convert to Cathar, you do lose Saints and Coronations even if it overtakes Catholicism and becomes the primary region?
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Jun 19, 2019 20:54
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Tormented posted:If you convert to Cathar, you do lose Saints and Coronations even if it overtakes Catholicism and becomes the primary region? Yes. Most heresies are really boring like this. I think only Fratecelli keeps most of the catholic mechanics.
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Jun 19, 2019 20:57
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Don't know. Haven't managed to overtake Catholicism yet but I'm gaining on it, something like 100 provinces to their 250. Currently got most of Great Britain and a fair share of metropolitan France conquered and converted, and through aggressive marriages my family is slowly spreading Catharism to the rest of Europe. I've seen a bunch of specifically Cathar beatuses (beati?) appear since I converted in the late 800s but haven't seen a single saint yet, and don't even see an option for Coronation. That might be a Cathar-specific thing though.
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Jun 19, 2019 21:00
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Oh I’m not actually sure about coronations, but you definitely lose Saints since they need the pope, and the Frats are the only ones who get a pope. I should’ve said all the catholic heresies are boring, because the eastern Christians get some neat ones, especially paulicians and messalians.
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Jun 19, 2019 21:02
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Eimi posted:Yeah, if anything I always felt it was crippling to play Catholic UNTIL Holy Fury, where there's actual incentives to be part of the blob. Of course for personal reasons I find it impossible to want to stay Christian on any character, but you know, those Crusade payouts are extremely nice. I understand this feeling, but my mercenary nature always gets the better of me when Crusader gold and titles are on the table. "Sword of the Blessed Virgin" is a pretty sweet nickname too.
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Jun 19, 2019 21:13
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coronations only affect Actual Catholics. part of the entire Cathar movement was a reaction against the ostentation and glitz that Catholicism was reveling in during that period.
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Jun 19, 2019 21:27
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Warmachine posted:I understand this feeling, but my mercenary nature always gets the better of me when Crusader gold and titles are on the table. "Sword of the Blessed Virgin" is a pretty sweet nickname too. Man, how do I get that title and Jesus's foreskin at the same time?
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Jun 19, 2019 21:32
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bunnyofdoom posted:Man, how do I get that title and Jesus's foreskin at the same time? You can steal the foreskin from the Benedictines!
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Jun 19, 2019 22:39
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OneSizeFitsAll posted:Speaking of Cathars, is there any other reason to convert other than to get Absolute Cognatic? Presumably you need to be out and not secret to do this? And presumably you keep Absolute Cognatic after your Cathar ruler dies and is replaced by a Catholic? Cathars basically get maxed out gender equality without having to actually raise the law to that point, so you get more than just abs-cog inheritance - you can appoint women as any council position or as generals as well.
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Jun 19, 2019 23:18
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Cathars basically get maxed out gender equality without having to actually raise the law to that point, so you get more than just abs-cog inheritance - you can appoint women as any council position or as generals as well. Well if you get to keep those bonuses then I know what I'm doing for one generation. Too many times I've ended up with a strong or genius daughter whilst my son is some inbred drunken idiot.
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Jun 20, 2019 02:33
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i haven't gone cathar since HF came out but if they effectively use the EQUALITY tenet then you will keep both absolute cognatic and full status of women when you shift away. i did that one time in a shattered world run - started with Equality in an unreformed pagan religion and then later dropped it when i reformed. i kept abcog and full status - the only difference was that i could, theoretically, change laws away from those if 95% of my brain spontaneously evaporated out of my ears.
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Jun 20, 2019 02:50
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So I recently bought a bunch of expansions in a steam sale and returned to the game, having not played for years. I'm in my second game atm and for the entire 150 years I have played so far the HRE, which I'm in, have had anti-popes. I changed to the emperor to see what was going on and apparently the pope desires 3 counties/duchies from the emperor giving -25 to relation each. So -75 just from that and -30 from free investiture. Is this working as intended? I kinda stopped that game, because my plan had been to consolidate my demesne and then hopefully join some crusades to further build up my power before either going independant or go for the emperorship, but I already missed 3 crusades since the pope isn't the head of my religion.
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Jun 20, 2019 09:54
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The Papacy starts off with the title of the Kingdom of the Papal States which has de jure claims on a big chunk of central Italy, giving him beef with whoever's holding that land. If it's usurped it reverts to being the Kingdom of Romagna, which pisses off the current Pope but presumably future ones would let the matter rest. I've seen the AI do the usurpation, but I'd guess your AI HRE never bothered because it had an anti-Pope to sidestep the dispute.
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Jun 20, 2019 11:13
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In my experience the HRE tends to have antipopes most of the time anyway, even without the claim issue.
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Jun 20, 2019 20:24
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Yeah if you're an emperor the pope is a real jackass about crowning you, so much better to just have an anti-pope do it at your beck and call.
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Jun 20, 2019 22:06
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Eimi posted:Yeah if you're an emperor the pope is a real jackass about crowning you, so much better to just have an anti-pope do it at your beck and call. I thought I read that you could also do some Papal political buggering with the Anti-Pope and turn him into the legit Pope but as your vassal? Which seems like a great masterstroke for a pan-European empire.
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Jun 20, 2019 22:50
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Warmachine posted:I thought I read that you could also do some Papal political buggering with the Anti-Pope and turn him into the legit Pope but as your vassal? Which seems like a great masterstroke for a pan-European empire. Yeah, he gets a claim on the papacy so you can push it, and if successful, he'll be a king level vassal under you, solving the pope problem for the rest of the game.
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Jun 20, 2019 22:56
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there's a few other ways to vassalize the pope though, last i checked literally just force vassalization works as long as you're holding part of the papal holdings already (and as such the remaining territory is not too large).
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Jun 20, 2019 23:37
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Well, I did my antipope switcheroo inside of a year by creating my antipope, landing the homeless pope in a random barony I held, then steamrolling the newly gifted barony. 
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Jun 21, 2019 00:43
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I really can see why this game has the fan following and praise that it has. I load it up every few months, muddle about, do apallingly, but still have a lovely time. I'm a viking tribal lord and I was getting sick of waiting to have enough moral authority to reform my religion and convert to feudalism (I may have misunderstood, but the two are related, right?) and along came an offer to convert to Islam. to be honest, I just though the idea of a Viking muslim was kind of novel and so said yes. Of course, my realm immediately got torn asunder. I was wondering, in situations like this, what's the stat that tells you which of your vassals are going to rebel? Because some did and were angry about suddenly being Muslim, and some seemed cool with it. Also, in wars, is there a way to lure some of your enemies away from their cause? like, negotiate individual peaces? Thanks in advance.
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Jun 21, 2019 09:05
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Snowman_McK posted:I'm a viking tribal lord and I was getting sick of waiting to have enough moral authority to reform my religion and convert to feudalism (I may have misunderstood, but the two are related, right?) and along came an offer to convert to Islam. to be honest, I just though the idea of a Viking muslim was kind of novel and so said yes. Of course, my realm immediately got torn asunder. I was wondering, in situations like this, what's the stat that tells you which of your vassals are going to rebel? Because some did and were angry about suddenly being Muslim, and some seemed cool with it. Don't worry, when you switch to Feudalism your realm will have problems in any case. As for rebelling vassals - look for zealous people and those who already don't like you, they'll probably won't switch religion or will hate you because of forced conversion. You can't negotiate individual peace.
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Jun 21, 2019 09:16
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So I'm kinda mad at hospitals re: doing nothing. I play single player with my partner, and we make decisions jointly (you thought Conclave was bad)... she is a public health nerd and always wants to spend on upgrading hospitals and all the associated doodads. I figure, fine, at least I can wait for the plague to hit, sit back all  and then come roaring out of Eire to smash a weakened England.My capital county with 96% disease resistance (got Construction to 6, paid like 5k for whatever the God-tier hospital upgrade is, plus a completed University Great Work) held out for a while, but still eventually succumbed. Even though I had shut the gates early my ruler died, as did the next. Like, when I was pretty half-arsed with hospitals I got a similar result, just without spending literally half my treasury. It was also the last county to lose the plague when it receded... really felt like it did basically nothing. A bit of bad luck + the plague deaths has put me down a weird dynastic cul-de-sac, with my character finally ping-ponging back to the dynasty I'd set up in the Middle East a hundred+ years ago as a Crusade beneficiary. So now I've got the Empire of Eire (Ireland, Scotland, and Wales) + Mecca and some other crap in the Middle East I don't care about.
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Jun 21, 2019 12:50
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ilitarist posted:Don't worry, when you switch to Feudalism your realm will have problems in any case. As for rebelling vassals - look for zealous people and those who already don't like you, they'll probably won't switch religion or will hate you because of forced conversion. But you can assassinate whatever pretender they're trying to put on the throne. Had some chucklefucks in my game decide that my brother was a better candidate for Kaiser. What they missed is that the Kaiserin is an Intricate Webweaver and Master Schemer. Oh, 150% my army strength? It would be a shame if something happened to your candidate.  Casus belli no longer valid. I've really learned three things this game. 1) The HRE is more trouble than it is worth. Found your own empire and sidestep the Princely Elective nonsense. 2) Keep a short leash on your vassals in the early game. Better to eat opinion penalties now than to have superdukes and border gore 300 years later. 3) Vassalize the Pope as soon as humanly possible after you found your empire.
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Jun 21, 2019 14:46
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Anybody know what the deal is with Shamir the Mlechchha Kingdom is? It's a titular kingdom in India in my game ruled by a Nepali Sunni who also holds the titles of U-Tsang and Kamarupa. I can't find anything on the wiki about Shamir the Mlechchha Kingdom though. I noticed them though because they're a pretty good chunk of eastern India and southern Tibet in my game (currently 852)
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Jun 21, 2019 17:20
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Jedit posted:Now you are a Catharrrr! gently caress lol
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Jun 21, 2019 17:30
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So in my Byzantine run I've pretty much been building a dynasty of soldiers in order to make them good commanders (which is A Good Thing with imperial elective). But even with that, between the AI and some kids just not turning out suitable to be a warrior, eventually succession put me in control of a scholarly fellow, Basileus Aetios II. Aetios II came into my control in his early twenties with the scholarship focus on and enrolled in the Hermetic Society. Cool, cool, he's a good character so no sweat. Then I checked available decisions and saw delve into the classics. Holy gently caress! For some reason I thought that option wasn't available until you've reformed the Roman Empire. So I do it, and before long I'm outta the Hermetics and leading a Hellenic secret cult. This goes very badly. I don't know if things changed since the last time I used a secret cult but gently caress me is it hard to keep membership up again. Eventually the Ecumenical Patriarch goes so far as excommunicating me. Well gently caress, now my vassals are getting pissed and the excommunication is gonna keep this dude from becoming a saint after he's dead. So I say gently caress it, openly declare my faith and somehow immediately reform. I figure my vassals can't hate me much worse and the branded apostate trait was loving up my own efforts with the cult, so there ain't much to lose. I had no idea the impact of a very powerful (I own every city and castle in both Constantinople and Rome and have ~10k retinues, plus the Scholae Palatinae and Varangians) Basileus gone Hellenic with Religious Revocation in his pocket. The only people that are being spared the purge of revocation are members of my dynasty (who I'll do my best to just convert over time) and merchant republics (which at this point now includes Amalfi, Ragusa, and Venice). And since my dude's powerful af not a single person is fighting me over the revocations. Just this massive sweeping purge through the entire Empire while I basically go  forever. By the time this is over the Orthodox faith will be irrevocably crippled. It's not like the Catholics are doing good either after I sacked Rome and booted the pope out on his rear end. The Umayyads are in France and Saxony has inexplicably become Muslim. So I may have more or less condemned all of Christendom with this move.First time I've gone Hellenic and I'm digging it real hard. E: Holy poo poo Catholic MA is 0 and Orthodox is now 15.  Fuckin' heresy popping up everywheeeeere
Honky Dong Country fucked around with this message at 08:20 on Jun 22, 2019 |
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Jun 22, 2019 06:45
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