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When I was a cadet used to watch a hosed up OS (ordinary seaman) hit on women. He was the arcitypye of the horny sailor. It didn't work 99 times out of a hundred. Fucker would try 200 or 300 times a month though. Now that's not exemplary behavior, ( it's horrible). But it's a useful example. The odds that a specfic academic finds what you have to say compelling may be very low. But you only need to find one.
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Jun 18, 2019 02:58
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Prester Jane posted:https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump...ingawful.com%2F ICE has been a grinding, slow, subtle compaction process since it started rounding people up. Is there a portion in your framework for compaction cycles taking longer and requiring more setup for larger groups? E: Like multiple years / decades for an entire nation?
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Jun 18, 2019 03:02
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Somfin posted:ICE has been a grinding, slow, subtle compaction process since it started rounding people up. Is there a portion in your framework for compaction cycles taking longer and requiring more setup for larger groups? To be honest, not specifically. I've never observed a compaction cycle playing out on this kind of scale though, it seems like the basic principles remain the same in such a large group though
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Jun 18, 2019 03:04
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Prester Jane posted:To be honest, not specifically. I've never observed a compaction cycle playing out on this kind of scale though, it seems like the basic principles remain the same in such a large group though Like, five guys, it'd be easy to drive out dude number four Multiple millions, you'd need a while longer, a large organisation to enforce the new system, and a whole bunch of different, often conflicting outer narratives to make sure that your ideal inner cluster has its rear end covered against all attacks (they're illegals so they deserve it, it's a big problem that requires a drastic solution, it's actually not a bad thing that we're doing, it's legal so it's fine, the children are being sent as a planned invasion, we're at war and they are soldiers, you don't want to send children back to a dangerous place, etc etc etc the cruelty is the point)
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Jun 18, 2019 03:12
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In the past when I've talked about Cooperators I've emphasized that the Cooperator worldview presupposes that the only viable solution is working within the existing system, and further any suggestion of changing the system is so anathema to the Cooperator worldview that they will dismiss it right out of hand as childish/naive. Cooperators value ritualized adherence to social/speech more's much more than they value their own supposed beliefs- and they prioritize the stability of the system over any other concern. With that in mind allow me to present this brief Joe Biden clip wherein he demonstrates these principles very clearly: https://twitter.com/BoKnowsNews/sta...ingawful.com%2F
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Jun 20, 2019 19:07
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Prester Jane posted:In the past when I've talked about Cooperators I've emphasized that the Cooperator worldview presupposes that the only viable solution is working within the existing system, and further any suggestion of changing the system is so anathema to the Cooperator worldview that they will dismiss it right out of hand as childish/naive. Cooperators value ritualized adherence to social/speech more's much more than they value their own supposed beliefs- and they prioritize the stability of the system over any other concern. That's been the democrat MO for years. It went to poo poo with Obama because the Republicans just called their bluff and now we have Trump. Biden as president would be no better than Obama was and I'm sad that he's still considered the front-runner.
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Jun 20, 2019 19:22
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I can't help but think that these polls are inaccurate, especially when Biden can't open his mouth without saying something that is absolutely disgusting to the base.
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Jun 20, 2019 21:46
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Halloween Jack posted:I can't help but think that these polls are inaccurate, especially when Biden can't open his mouth without saying something that is absolutely disgusting to the base. Don't try to unskew the polls. Remember that a lot of Americans don't engage with politics and he's getting by on name recognition alone.
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Jun 20, 2019 21:56
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Halloween Jack posted:I can't help but think that these polls are inaccurate, especially when Biden can't open his mouth without saying something that is absolutely disgusting to the base. The one problem I'm hoping we don't run into is another 2016 where the DNC intentionally tries to shove out progressive candidates to put who they consider the most "electable" establishment centrist on the ticket. When it became apparent that Bernie was gaining they worked to get Hillary in instead.
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Jun 20, 2019 22:00
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chitoryu12 posted:The one problem I'm hoping we don't run into is another 2016 where the DNC intentionally tries to shove out progressive candidates to put who they consider the most "electable" establishment centrist on the ticket. When it became apparent that Bernie was gaining they worked to get Hillary in instead. This is absolutely happening.
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Jun 20, 2019 22:11
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I originally posted the following in the Trump thread, but I think it's worth discussing here as well: https://twitter.com/TexasTribune/status/1141743183732367362?s=19 https://twitter.com/TexasTribune/status/1141744116029698049?s=19 https://twitter.com/TexasTribune/status/1141744475674480640?s=19 https://twitter.com/TexasTribune/status/1141745002206388225?s=19 https://twitter.com/TexasTribune/status/1141745337197051905?s=19 https://twitter.com/TexasTribune/status/1141745817721757696?s=19 Are y'all serious about wanting to fight the camps? Like, actually serious question mark then let's talk about what we could actually do. We find out where the corporate offices of one of the companies operating these camps are, we show up with five thousand protesters, surround the building, and no one gets in or out until reporters/inspectors are allowed into the camps that are controlled by that company. There is no moral distinction between the prophet tears running the modern i g farben and the grunts doing the abuse themselves. The only way the camps will close is through direct action and confrontation. These are monsters destroying children for their own sick pleasure and profit, I'm perfectly happy with standing around a building while some terrified CEO slowly starves inside- if that's what it takes.
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Jun 20, 2019 22:22
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chitoryu12 posted:The one problem I'm hoping we don't run into is another 2016 where the DNC intentionally tries to shove out progressive candidates to put who they consider the most "electable" establishment centrist on the ticket. When it became apparent that Bernie was gaining they worked to get Hillary in instead. I mean it absolutely worked the first time. Hillary was elected by a landslide, right? Edit: Prester Jane posted:I originally posted the following in the Trump thread, but I think it's worth discussing here as well: God drat this country. "Too late." I guess. Aleph Null has issued a correction as of 22:33 on Jun 20, 2019 |
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Jun 20, 2019 22:31
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Aleph Null posted:God drat this country. "Too late." I guess. And that's why we must act.
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Jun 21, 2019 02:25
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I have some friends in the political science department at a research school. When it gets to be a decent hour I'll text a few that might know people who would be able to help. It might be a long shot though because the department seems pretty centrist. If you remember me from twitter, I've been doing research on the Satanic panic. I stuck my contact info in that google drive link I sent you (sorry, I don't have dms here). Ice Phisherman posted:Don't try to unskew the polls. Remember that a lot of Americans don't engage with politics and he's getting by on name recognition alone. That, and its been pointed out a lot of polls that show Biden in the lead are polling older voters. I might be in a millennial bubble, but the only reactions I've seen to Biden have been negative, aside from non-political before Trump/low info voter friends posting stuff from centrists trying to shut down talk about rioting if he's the nominee.
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Jun 21, 2019 09:41
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chitoryu12 posted:The one problem I'm hoping we don't run into is another 2016 where the DNC intentionally tries to shove out progressive candidates to put who they consider the most "electable" establishment centrist on the ticket. When it became apparent that Bernie was gaining they worked to get Hillary in instead.
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Jun 21, 2019 14:07
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OP, have you heard of Bob Altmeyer and his research on authoritarian personalities? It's eerily familar when he reads about right-wing authoritarians as he calls them (with right-wing for him just meaning they support existing authorities); unquestioning support for the system, extreme conformity, inconsistency/compartmentalizing of opinions, among other traits. It's a depressing read when you realize that this might be something like a third of the population. His last book which was written for the public is available for free online: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxxylK6fR81rckQxWi1hVFFRUDg/view
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Jun 21, 2019 15:20
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Prester Jane posted:I was re-reading this thread and just came across this old post; I would like to state for the record that I have at this point emailed approximately 60 different College professors across a variety of universities, and I have gotten more or less bupkis in response. I have experimented with a variety of approach's/outreaxh strategies, but (so far) no one has really been willing to invest the time to read my work. A couple have responded with links to their own related works on deradicalizing/cult environments, but that's the most effort/thought I have gotten in a response do far. Based on the last time this thread was active, you also haven't invested the time to read anyone else's work. If you're reaching out to professionals and asking them to evaluate your work or help develop your ideas then you need to make some effort to ensure you don't come off like somebody cold calling physicists and offering to give them the details on your perpetual motion machine. At the risk of being repetitive: part of developing a theory is actually comparing your ideas against the theories other people have developed. Figuring out where there's overlap, where you're saying something new or different, etc. Those techniques were literally developed as best practices over the centuries to try and resist some of the very psychological tendencies that you're critiquing.
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Jun 21, 2019 15:31
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Grevling posted:OP, have you heard of Bob Altmeyer and his research on authoritarian personalities? It's eerily familar when he reads about right-wing authoritarians as he calls them (with right-wing for him just meaning they support existing authorities); unquestioning support for the system, extreme conformity, inconsistency/compartmentalizing of opinions, among other traits. It's a depressing read when you realize that this might be something like a third of the population. It's a good book and an easy read.
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Jun 21, 2019 15:33
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Helsing posted:Based on the last time this thread was active, you also haven't invested the time to read anyone else's work. If you're reaching out to professionals and asking them to evaluate your work or help develop your ideas then you need to make some effort to ensure you don't come off like somebody cold calling physicists and offering to give them the details on your perpetual motion machine. What even is your angle here? What are you even talking about? What do you mean I haven't read anyone else's work? This entire project started because I read Bob altmeyer's work, referenced in the post above. I haven't read everything that people that's linked to me in this thread but I've read quite a bit of it. I don't know what you want from me. I can't magically make an academic education appear in my brain. It's not like I don't read and I don't take this seriously and I don't do everything in my power to advance myself whenever I can. Your singular contribution to this thread so far has been to constantly harp on my lack of a formal education- you say my ideas are interesting but that I'm not formally educated enough yet to articulate them or discuss them or try to develop them or something. All you've done is to constantly hit me in a sore spot over and over because you know you can- I would ask you to contribute something of value to the discussion if you're going to post in this thread. Prester Jane has issued a correction as of 17:09 on Jun 21, 2019 |
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Jun 21, 2019 17:03
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Grevling posted:OP, have you heard of Bob Altmeyer and his research on authoritarian personalities? It's eerily familar when he reads about right-wing authoritarians as he calls them (with right-wing for him just meaning they support existing authorities); unquestioning support for the system, extreme conformity, inconsistency/compartmentalizing of opinions, among other traits. It's a depressing read when you realize that this might be something like a third of the population. Actually that's the book that kind of got this entire project rolling, if you go back and read the early D&D thread I was originally using "Authoritarians" before the term "Narrativist" was coined.
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Jun 21, 2019 17:11
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Prester Jane posted:Actually that's the book that kind of got this entire project rolling, if you go back and read the early D&D thread I was originally using "Authoritarians" before the term "Narrativist" was coined. Oh, I didn't see that. Well, at least someone will see and read the book maybe.
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Jun 21, 2019 17:28
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Keep pressing on, Prester Jane. I believe in you, for what little that's worth. I think you're onto something and if it's stuff people have maybe done before, well, ok, but you're doing it now. You admit when you're wrong and you apologize sometimes when you let your tone get overly hostile, which is more than can be said for a lot of people on this here internet of ours. Don't let the naysayers put you off but at the same time take the valid criticisms to heart - which over the years I've seen you do, so yeah, just keep going. Your life experience is not the same as a rigorous academic background, but it has as much if not more value, in a different way, so there's definitely contributions to the problem you can make, and you are doing so just keep at it.  Thanks for the informative threads and posts, I've learned a lot reading them.
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Jun 21, 2019 18:03
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https://twitter.com/KashannKilson/s...ingawful.com%2F
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Jun 21, 2019 18:15
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Getting into a shootout with the cops to own the environment.
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Jun 21, 2019 18:30
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Cactus posted:Keep pressing on, Prester Jane. I believe in you, for what little that's worth. I think you're onto something and if it's stuff people have maybe done before, well, ok, but you're doing it now. You admit when you're wrong and you apologize sometimes when you let your tone get overly hostile, which is more than can be said for a lot of people on this here internet of ours. Don't let the naysayers put you off but at the same time take the valid criticisms to heart - which over the years I've seen you do, so yeah, just keep going. Your life experience is not the same as a rigorous academic background, but it has as much if not more value, in a different way, so there's definitely contributions to the problem you can make, and you are doing so just keep at it. Thank you, I'm a hack and I know it but I'm doing the best with what I have. My ultimate training for all this is that someday academics will take this all much further than I could ever dream of and refine it into something better than I could ever make. But that day is a long way off, and for now I'm just trying to make my theories as well thought-out and internally consistent as I can. I know I'm onto something, because I've received a number of messages over the years (particularly in recent months) from individuals who have said that my materials were helpful to them in deradicalizing/ deprogramming themselves. ("Thought loops deprogram" is one of the Google searches people have used to find my site.) As far as the value of my background versus an academic one it does get me down at times because there's a certain subset of bad faith individuals who constantly concern troll about my lack of academic credentials/ demand that I must meet certain educational requirements as a form of gatekeeping me from developing/discussing my ideas. (I've encountered this tactic on many times. ) it's frustrating and obnoxious, made worse by the fact that yeah- I am kind of embarrassed that I don't have a formal academic education. That said though, in comparison my background to an academic one. Well ironically my background has prepared me to live through the rise of fascist America much more thoroughly than an academic one would have.
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Jun 21, 2019 18:44
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The academics are failing to address the issue so far from what I can see, so I don't think you need to feel as embarrassed as you say you do about your lack of whatever it is they're supposed to be bringing to the table.
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Jun 21, 2019 18:58
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Prester Jane posted:Thank you, I'm a hack and I know it but I'm doing the best with what I have. My ultimate training for all this is that someday academics will take this all much further than I could ever dream of and refine it into something better than I could ever make. i think the core issue is that many academics don't have high regard for unsolicited email from a layman. while i don't think you should stop developing or discussing your ideas at all, there is a real difference between someone emailing a professor with a question and someone emailing a professor with their fairly extensive body of writing. a solid 95% of the latter emails are legitimately from cranks. you aren't a crank, but your lack of credentials does create a barrier here, in approaching academics in this way. twitter might be legitimately more productive than email, weird as it seems. you are doing good work pj and don't view what i'm saying here as me gatekeeping you. i'm just trying to express how our society does in fact gatekeep whose ideas are considered legitimate. the left as a whole faces this kind of gatekeeping on what is allowed to be "serious thought" all the time.
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Jun 21, 2019 20:29
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Jazerus posted:i think the core issue is that many academics don't have high regard for unsolicited email from a layman. while i don't think you should stop developing or discussing your ideas at all, there is a real difference between someone emailing a professor with a question and someone emailing a professor with their fairly extensive body of writing. a solid 95% of the latter emails are legitimately from cranks. you aren't a crank, but your lack of credentials does create a barrier here, in approaching academics in this way. twitter might be legitimately more productive than email, weird as it seems. This is likely a large part of why you're not getting any action, PJ. I very occasionally get unsolicited emails from people who aren't either colleagues or students of mine, and I almost always end up skipping over them after a couple sentences as it's usually either some crank* or hatemail about something I've written that apparently fails to adequately fellate Are Troops. Also, as was mentioned before, we're well into summer right now so even those of us teaching summer courses are at least half-checked out and doing our own thing (research, vacation, wallowing in existential dread, whatever). *And I deal with enough cranks modding this place! 
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Jun 21, 2019 20:42
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Prester Jane posted:Your singular contribution to this thread so far has been to constantly harp on my lack of a formal education- you say my ideas are interesting but that I'm not formally educated enough yet to articulate them or discuss them or try to develop them or something. All you've done is to constantly hit me in a sore spot over and over because you know you can- I would ask you to contribute something of value to the discussion if you're going to post in this thread. I think you could look at this a different way. Helsing is rigorously critical, negative, his tone is a snarl and he is doggedly persistent when he thinks he's right. He's not targeting you that's just how he is. There is value in that. You can depend on him to be those things. But he also has some blind spots, there are things I don't think he gets about leadership that I think you get down to your bones. But he is telling you things that probably do need to be done to take what you're doing to a wider audience or an academic one. But that's also very differen't thing from doing, from acting in the world risking self based on what one believes. That's the real test of the ideas we each believe in anyway and it seems to me that's where you're headed, to doing.
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Jun 21, 2019 20:45
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Ice Phisherman posted:Which disciplines did you reach out to directly? Please don't underestimate the sheer volume of spam academics receive, from pay to publish journals and revenue generating conferences to outright cranks. The best way to establish a rapport is find the discipline your work is within, and attend conferences; email is just not a great way to do it. Hell, submit a manuscript to a journal or apply to present a poster at a conference. They are not gate kept (generally) by credentials.
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Jun 22, 2019 00:15
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Do a TED talk.
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Jun 22, 2019 06:42
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You need like an elevator pitch. Like if you email some guy a 5000 page manifesto, you'll look like the timecube guy. Something short sweet and professional to hook people. Also seconding that cold email may just not be the best way to get the word out. Everyone's nutting themselves over video nowadays.
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Jun 22, 2019 15:43
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Getting unsolicited emails from paranoid schizophrenics is just part of working in academia. TimeCube type guys tend to spam publicly available email addresses, and college faculty emails are often public.
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Jun 22, 2019 17:07
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redsniper posted:You need like an elevator pitch. Like if you email some guy a 5000 page manifesto, you'll look like the timecube guy. Something short sweet and professional to hook people. On the other hand, it's probably best to avoid suddenly putting out a video with the premise of "Schizophrenic explains her theory about authoritarians with the aid of hundreds of blog posts" unless you want to get put in the same category as chemtrails dudes. Maybe start talking to leftist groups that are already involved in combating fascism?
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Jun 22, 2019 18:04
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This article reminded me of Prester's talk about cooperators, and perhaps more importantly, what happens when the other side refuses to play along with them.
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Jun 25, 2019 11:43
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Boksi posted:This article reminded me of Prester's talk about cooperators, and perhaps more importantly, what happens when the other side refuses to play along with them. https://twitter.com/ModerateVoters/...ingawful.com%2F https://twitter.com/riotwomennn/sta...ingawful.com%2F
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Jun 28, 2019 01:18
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Sorry for taking so long, but so far the only one who got back to me assumed my phone had been stolen when she saw a paragraph of text with a random blogspot link, but she's looking into it. I also remembered a professor of mine who's daughter is friends with an ex-evangelical who works with a No Longer Quivering type organization, I just have to figure out how to mention it to her.
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Jul 3, 2019 00:51
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Best Korea posted:Sorry for taking so long, but so far the only one who got back to me assumed my phone had been stolen when she saw a paragraph of text with a random blogspot link, but she's looking into it. I also remembered a professor of mine who's daughter is friends with an ex-evangelical who works with a No Longer Quivering type organization, I just have to figure out how to mention it to her. Hey, thank you ever so much. It means a great deal to me. I think probably the best way to introduce me to the No Longer Quivering friend is to via my work on Accelerated Christian Education.
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Jul 3, 2019 02:09
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It's true that the academic world provides some opportunities to connect up your work to existing work on cults, and more case studies to read about. But connecting up the vocabularies and such is not strictly necessary to make your biggest impact. Don't feel that you need their endorsement at all to be valid in the modern social media driven world. Besides that, academics has itself been part of the problem by producing a class of people who excessively believe in the power of formal education to fix everything. This brings me to the problem of education that I've identified lately. Everyone likes learning, but no one likes "being educated". People want to learn on their own. Minds are never changed by debate, but by life experience. We in here know that. Liberals do not know that. The mainstream liberal media wants to train you to be that friend who is in perpetual know-it-all mode explaining things to everyone, but the truth is no one likes that guy. Strikingly, to "educate" others seems like the only rhetorical tool that centrists know. I just realized that it explains so much to think of it that way. The hallmark of a centrist is the misguided attempt to educate the unwilling, to educate their way out of the world's problems, while themselves lacking any other social tools. No understanding of power differences at the individual level, or irrecoverable failures at the institutional level, just a desire to "educate" without those tools.
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Jul 4, 2019 23:55
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On that note I think I can now explain why it is that centrist liberals treat socialists and leftists worse than they treat the alt-right and nazis: They cannot figure out how to "educate" leftists better. In their minds a right wing fundamentalist surely means well, but just doesn't know any better because of their unfortunately outdated church upbringing. Surely no one is "racist", just misinformed. Same goes for "selfish", "abusive", "oppressive", etc. All those poor individuals just haven't heard the truth of their hurtful actions yet. Leftists though? They seem to know better, yet they choose to act up and break rules anyway. So they must be the worse ones. Attempts to educate a leftist always just result in embarrassment at finding they understood things perfectly well. Eventually, the centrists attribute malice to leftists where they absolutely refused to do so for right wingers! Centrists grew up in a world of rampant right wing authoritarianism, and because of that they cannot fathom calling out a right wing abuser for what they are, or applying a "label" to anyone, except to leftists who do not fall under their world's protections. Naturally the centrists "bless your heart, you just don't understand" attitude comes off as very condescending and insulting to a right winger who understands that motives are at issue, not knowledge -- hence why the right responds with insults and hate to liberals, and reciprocate none of the goodwill. Most of all they despise liberals not for missing the point or even being insulting, but for being weaklings who don't understand they're in a world that runs on power, threat of force, monopoly, hegemony over capital, and respect -- and for being that world's ignorant rulebreakers. Happy Thread has issued a correction as of 00:38 on Jul 5, 2019 |
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Jul 4, 2019 23:56
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