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I don't doubt fnox' descriptions and news links of what goes on in Venezuela, but the anecdotes just make it sound like a typical country in Latin America. I.e. definitely bad, but the problems are complex and present under a wide range of nominal political affiliations at the federal level. Yes, by all means vote out/do popular uprisings against bad governments (of which Maduro's is probably one), but it's not worth the cost if you're trading it for Donald Trump's puppet regime. And with a foreign army led by known bad actors there may be a few legitimacy concerns, to put it mildly. I also really doubt that Vzla is not racist. Racism is everywhere in the region and intertwined with classism and nationalism. If you think it's not there, it's because it's not being examined.
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Jun 21, 2019 15:51
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fnox posted:where are these white supremacist militias? yet another call for us military intervention
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Jun 21, 2019 16:15
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Condiv posted:hey fnox, is your last name something like mengele-eichmann?
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Jun 21, 2019 16:16
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Calling for an invasion because of seeing people eat out of the trash is funny because in the US I can walk down the street of the national capital over to its architectural jewel train station and at any given time there will be about 20 homeless people camping out on the pavement out front. Meanwhile literally just a couple miles away https://twitter.com/washingtonian/status/988410412092751872
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Jun 21, 2019 16:23
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Personally, I think it was brave of fnox to finally join in the debate about Venezuela. They seem awfully uninformed, but I think we can educate them 
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Jun 21, 2019 16:42
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This highlights the dangers of not reading the OP
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Jun 21, 2019 16:57
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I woke up this morning and the first thing I thought of was "venezuela is rich except for all the poor people driving down the gdp per capita"
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Jun 21, 2019 16:58
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I wonder how big an impact the 2014-2016 drought (and apparently another one in 2018?) had on Venezuela's economy. Similar things have been happening in Honduras and Guatemala, and people have been fleeing the countryside there en masse. It's hard to apportion the blame between climate change and government incompetence, but the former is starting to play a bigger role. Between drought and low oil prices, the US sure chose the perfect moment to put the thumbscrews on.
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Jun 21, 2019 17:03
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https://twitter.com/anyaparampil/status/1141761675705688064quote:In conjunction with the Trump Administration’s announcement, Guaidó ordered Venezuela’s legally defunct National Assembly to appoint a new board of directors to PDVSA and Citgo.
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Jun 21, 2019 17:17
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I can’t believe Juan was actually a competent man after all. the greatest grifter we have ever seen
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Jun 21, 2019 17:25
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Jun 21, 2019 17:36
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fnox posted:ok, evidence of what specifically are you talking about? because I can probably find it. the US literally bombed and couped libya on the absurdly flimsy justification that there was going to be atrocities, not that atrocities had happened during the civil war "killing hope" is a tome full of the US fabricating claims to justify bombing and overthrowing governments all over latin america during the cold war propaganda about the horrors of the maduro regime was blasted constantly into literally every american household with a tv, radio, or internet connection no one should trust any of your analysis on US foreign policy and coup attempts. my suggestion to you is to read killing hope so you have an idea about how american foreign policy works
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Jun 21, 2019 17:57
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Yeah it's funny fnox is asking if people have studied venezuelan history or whatever, but really american history is more relevant here. Fnox, you need to listen to actual americans and stop erasing our experiences (of wrecking other countries).
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Jun 21, 2019 18:02
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The USA would never fabricate a cassus belli. Iran: "Today we will destroy two random oil tankers for no reason. Right when the Americans are looking for an excuse to attack us."
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Jun 21, 2019 18:12
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30.5 Days posted:I saw people eating in trash cans here in Seattle and want a massive empire (china) to invade and kill a lot of people. We're a lot alike, you and I. 
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Jun 21, 2019 18:39
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I think fnox should read the OP before making uninformed posts that don’t contribute to healthy debate. For your convenience fnox, here it is:R. Guyovich posted:new thread, old one was goldmined for being too good
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Jun 21, 2019 19:07
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the situation in [Chicago/New York/Los Angeles/San Francisco] is reaching a crisis point! people cannot afford basic necessities like medicine and shelter, and are eating out of trash cans! The violence is so out of control that hundreds of people are shot every year! the only way to save the people of [Chicago/New York/Los Angeles/San Francisco] is for [Canada/The EU/Mexico/China] to intervene and overthrow the government so that stability may once again take hold
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Jun 21, 2019 19:22
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I mean the US is also running concentration camps, so they may not care about freedom.
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Jun 21, 2019 19:30
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fnox posted:can you at least admit maduro had some fault in this? The point isn't that he has no fault, but that it isn't a situation where "Maduro directly did things that hosed things up in such a way that merely removing him will fix/improve the situation," and your argument requires that this be the case (because you're not just arguing that Maduro has made mistakes, you're arguing that he is a direct cause of the crisis to such an extent that virtually anyone would be preferable, even people who are obviously terrible like Guaido). fnox posted:what about the poo poo I just posted? not grim enough for you? I don't think quelacreo.com is still up but the videos are out there anyway. The bar is high when you're arguing "the current administration is so dire literally anyone would be better," and you would generally have an easier time finding a list of recent atrocities if you literally pulled a random country's name out of a hat than you do with Venezuela. It honestly does not rank high on the list of "countries that do crimes/atrocities." Your argument is heavily dependent upon attributing all indirect harm from economic causes to Maduro himself as a result. It is very easy to pull up a super long list of atrocities in the US, for example, but it would be dumb for someone to be like "and therefore I think we should replace Obama with this Republican, because nothing could really be worse than this" (though this would actually be a considerably more reasonable argument since the US is way worse than Venezuela in terms of being "a country that does crimes both to itself and others"). Your argument is not just "Maduro did some bad things"; it is "Maduro is doing such awful things that even someone as transparently awful as Guaido would be better." That requires an argument not just that bad things have happened, but that any random dubious politician would probably be better. Ytlaya has issued a correction as of 19:33 on Jun 21, 2019 |
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Jun 21, 2019 19:30
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The US State Department has a very very good track record when it comes to choosing proper leaders, I would give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to evaluating who is best to run whatever country you are from
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Jun 21, 2019 19:34
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Pryor on Fire posted:The US State Department has a very very good track record when it comes to choosing proper leaders, I would give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to evaluating who is best to run whatever country you are from I mean, they couldn't possibly be worse than Maduro, literally the worst thing to ever happen to Latin America.
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Jun 21, 2019 19:51
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People in venezuela are starving because: 1) Maduro hasn't gotten rid of the fuel subsidy that's been around for decades . He merely reduced it. 2) *gestures broadly at oil infrastructure*
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Jun 21, 2019 20:00
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Therefore we need to be invaded, preferably by a country who also has a fuel subsidy, but a smaller one. Basically numbers fuckstein except "just wants to gently caress around with fuel subsidies and invade someone"
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Jun 21, 2019 20:02
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Look if you run concentration camps for children then you can probably be pretty good at identifying human rights violations by virtue of the rule 'takes one to know one.'
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Jun 21, 2019 20:18
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Moridin920 posted:Look if you run concentration camps for children then you can probably be pretty good at identifying human rights violations by virtue of the rule 'takes one to know one.' Also if literally everything you've done in Latin America has been a massive violation of human rights.
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Jun 21, 2019 20:45
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30.5 Days posted:Yeah it's funny fnox is asking if people have studied venezuelan history or whatever, but really american history is more relevant here. Fnox, you need to listen to actual americans and stop erasing our experiences (of wrecking other countries). Fast Luck posted:Calling for an invasion because of seeing people eat out of the trash is funny because in the US I can walk down the street of the national capital over to its architectural jewel train station and at any given time there will be about 20 homeless people camping out on the pavement out front. Meanwhile literally just a couple miles away not about venezuela, user loses posting privileges etc etc Willie Tomg has issued a correction as of 22:36 on Jun 21, 2019 |
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Jun 21, 2019 22:31
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pointing out the internal dissonance of ideology, externalities and relative standards of living is derailing. Someone Must Do Something. no not lifting sanctions or allocating some of america's utterly embarrassing surplus of staple grains and legumes. something else. anything.
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Jun 21, 2019 22:33
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we need american psychopaths to overthrow maduro, but if the american psychopaths do what they always do we'll just get rid of them no problem
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Jun 21, 2019 22:44
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Willie Tomg posted:pointing out the internal dissonance of ideology, externalities and relative standards of living is derailing. Someone Must Do Something. no not lifting sanctions or allocating some of america's utterly embarrassing surplus of staple grains and legumes. something else. anything. Checked their post history after they claimed their purpose was to provide some perspective about what was going on in Venezuela. Found that it's 4 years and 25 pages of screeds that lead me to the conclusion that fnox is the Venezuelan Rush Limbaugh.
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Jun 21, 2019 22:53
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Fiend posted:Checked their post history after they claimed their purpose was to provide some perspective about what was going on in Venezuela. Found that it's 4 years and 25 pages of screeds that lead me to the conclusion that fnox is the Venezuelan Rush Limbaugh. wow look at you dismissing Rush’s valuable insight to his home country
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Jun 21, 2019 22:54
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Fiend posted:Checked their post history after they claimed their purpose was to provide some perspective about what was going on in Venezuela. Found that it's 4 years and 25 pages of screeds that lead me to the conclusion that fnox is the Venezuelan Rush Limbaugh. Complete with "The good ones don't call themselves african-american they're just american americans"
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Jun 21, 2019 23:21
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oh y eah well what's your plan? no not the plan where instead of subsidizing farmers to destroy their crops or have fields lie fallow, american food and aid are instead routed through NGO's not specifically affiliated with the USA. another plan. no not that plan where a coalition of nations coordinated through the UN create a global solution aid solution independent of american beneficence out of genuine humanitarian concern with no IMF strings attached. another plan. no not the plan where venezuela is brought back into the westphalian fold and compelled into norms with positive incentives rather than cruel, capricious and cackhanded implementations of The Honduran Cure. another plan. any plan. any plan at all. i am not picky. what is your plan
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Jun 21, 2019 23:48
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it's weird how we only need "plans" for the countries with oil
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Jun 22, 2019 13:29
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Pryor on Fire posted:it's weird how we only need "plans" for the countries with oil Love your work, Richard.
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Jun 22, 2019 14:02
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Jun 22, 2019 15:05
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saw >160 posts itt and thought the US invaded but actually it was just some idiot from d&d
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Jun 22, 2019 17:06
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Lightning Knight posted:you know fnox, I don’t like your politics but I respect that you’re crazy enough to come take on cspam posters on their own turf. a poster chooses, a lurker obeys
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Jun 22, 2019 17:24
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Homeless Friend posted:a poster chooses, a lurker obeys
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Jun 22, 2019 23:37
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Homeless Friend posted:a poster chooses, a lurker obeys “Would you kindly...explain why Pinochet would be better than Maduro?”
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Jun 23, 2019 03:02
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read the op, would you kindly
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Jun 23, 2019 03:18
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