|
It seems like Woody needs a more specific plan for what he wants to do with his life to make the leap that he does at the end (parting ways with his friends). I think the implication is that he’ll help lost toys, but I wish that it was made a little more clear. If he’s leaving the whole gang just so he can be with Bo, that doesn’t really feel earned.
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 04:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 12:27 |
|
|
A couple of other odd TS4 beats: -Movie establishes tension between Molly and Woody, since Molly serves the roll in Bonnie’s room that Woody is used to having (which makes sense), but then Molly is basically a non factor for the rest of the movie. -Not to get all MRA, but Jessie ending up with Woody’s sheriff badge is kind of weird. As mentioned, Molly seems pretty established as the leader of the room, and Buzz growing into the role of de facto leader in Woody’s absence is a pretty clear narrative thread for him. Meanwhile, Jessie is barely in the movie, so when she gets the symbolic passing of the torch moment, it feels out of left field. (I know there’s the moment when Bonnie gives Jessie the badge there, but it only really exists to set up the moment at the end.) -I understand thematically why Woody giving up his voice box makes sense, what with “voice” and agency being motifs that the movie hammers pretty hard. That said, the (unintentional?) visual implication after it’s taken out and he’s been stitched up is that he’s been castrated, and I found it weirdly unsettling. This likely says more about me than it does the movie. General Dog fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Jun 24, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 05:28
|
|
|
Yes it really does say a lot about you if that's what you immediately jumped to
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 05:31
|
|
|
I'm so glad that Toy Story never let itself get bogged down with lore/rules from the universe it inhabits. I feel like if Toy Story was made by Dreamworks in 2019, you'd end up with voice-over from Woody starting the movie, and it would be like: "Howdy! My names Woody, and I'm a toy. You may be wondering 'Hey, how is that toy talking.' Well, it turns out there's a lot you don't know about toys..." "A thousand years ago at the end of the Great War, the Ancient Ones placed a crystal at the center of the earth. The crystal had the power to grant life to all manner of objects made by human hands. However, man soon abused this power, so the Ancients put a limitation on it- for an object to draw power from the crystal and gain sentience, it had to receive "the Spark of Creation", which can only ever come from the love of a child. These animated objects came to be known- you guessed it- as "toys". But it's not all a cakewalk, we all have to follow the 9 Rules. Rule 1 is [...]" Anyway, after all that is explained they like have to find a new kid in 8 days or they'll die, and also there's an business executive who wants control of the toy-animating crystal at the center of the earth, and also the toys are all really horny and there's probably one who farts a lot. Anyway, that's my pitch for Toy Story, But Terrible.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 06:15
|
|
|
Gonna be the weird that's 6 months behind everyone and say god drat did they poo poo the bed with Wreck-It Ralph 2. There's a nugget of good there (letting kids grow, learning to be ok with change, etc) but it's just the worst script and actively fucks up things they established in the first film.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 06:17
|
|
|
A hypothetical situation for you guys. Which would have been better- Incredibles 2 having the extra year of work as planned and Toy Story 4 coming out a year soon, or the way the movies turned out as they are?
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 08:29
|
|
|
I haven’t seen TS4, but... I think my biggest bone to pick with Incredibles 2, being a retread of the first’s plot, probably would have taken over a year to fix.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 09:18
|
|
|
If they were going to write a good story for these movies they had plenty of time in which they could have done it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 09:35
|
|
|
Incredibles 2 needed more than a year to fix since half the movie is weak, which is nonsense because it was percolating in development long enough to get a good story made.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 09:59
|
|
|
Barudak posted:Incredibles 2 needed more than a year to fix since half the movie is weak, which is nonsense because it was percolating in development long enough to get a good story made. Reading between the lines Incredibles 2 obviously happened because Bird wanted to get out of movie jail after Tomorrowland failed rather than him just coincidentally finally having that good sequel idea come to him right after his live-action prospects dried up.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 15:15
|
|
|
Sleeveless posted:Reading between the lines Incredibles 2 obviously happened because Bird wanted to get out of movie jail after Tomorrowland failed rather than him just coincidentally finally having that good sequel idea come to him right after his live-action prospects dried up. Yeah, I would definitely believe this. Incredibles 2 feels like a sequel that would have been rushed shortly out after the first movie to capitalize on its success, not an idea that Bird was developing and percolating for over a decade.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 15:34
|
|
|
Andorra posted:A hypothetical situation for you guys. Just all the Supers PR bits suck, and I'm pretty sure that no matter how wowzers the yacht-save at the end is, a televised near-coup by easily-brainwashed superpowered beings would get that resurgence shut down fast as all hell.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 16:22
|
|
|
FilthyImp posted:I liked the Superdad parts, and that whole I need to succeed so that She can succeed part is great. Bird can still come up with action setpieces like a son-of-a-bitch (the Elasti-cycle/train chase, the Jack-Jack vs. racoon scene, and the apartment fight are all outstanding), but yeah the story is a real problem. Helen basically has no arc beyond "she goes on vacation and things basically turn out well", and Bob and Helen are robbed of their agency and basically taken off the map for two-thirds of act 3. If the entire movie's focus was primarily on the kids, it wouldn't be a problem, but that's not really the case.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 16:38
|
|
|
drat. The family balancing superheroics and their daily lives could be a hell of a movie. Have Dash do the sitcom "Three places/dates at once" thing would be cute. Or- Incredidad! General Anxiety is threatening Wall Street! We're in the middle of fractions! I can't just leave now!!!
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 16:48
|
|
|
General Dog posted:Helen basically has no arc beyond "she goes on vacation and things basically turn out well" Yeah, this is more or less my biggest complaint with I2. The story in the first Incredibles is suited so perfectly to Bob's character- it's a superhero adventure, but it's also about Bob finding out who he is as a person, growing closer to his family, and deciding what's important in his life. I think having the sequel focused on Helen was a great idea, but she doesn't really grow and change over the course of the story - you could slot basically any other character into the Screenslaver mystery and it would go the same way. I wish they'd done more with Voyd, honestly - maybe have her and Helen team up, putting her in a sort of mentor role and test both of them in that way, explore superheroing as it relates to motherhood instead of fatherhood, maybe? I don't know. There were opportunities there but the movie we got just felt so by-the-numbers.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 17:03
|
|
|
Guess who got their OFFICIAL JOHNK CANS WITHOUT LABELS DVD IN THE MAIL it's hilariously bad
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 18:37
|
|
|
Incredibles 2 ends at the exact same place The Incredibles did. Superheroes being accepted and allowed and the family making their peace with fitting in with society while having a healthy outlet in crime fighting was all right there on the screen on that last scene and 2 was basically rolling that back just so they could return to it again. I think that's part of the reason people come away with the feeling of it being an episode of a show or a rushed follow-up I actually really liked the throw away line about how they caused more damage than they prevented on the Underminer fight and should have just let insurance cover the damage and let the authorities track down and arrest Underminer on their own because it basically reframes being a superhero as being like a high-speed chase or using lethal force on a fleeing perp where it's bravado and machismo that is showy but actually less effective than letting things de-escalate and then doing an arrest later. Might not have been a very exciting movie let alone as a sequel but it was the most interesting thing it had to say about superheroes and they mostly just brushed it aside immediately.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 19:11
|
|
|
If Incredibles 2 taking an extra year lead to the removal the goddamn amazing sequence where Helen fights the Screenslaver, I think I'm fine with the movie we got. That sequence was really freaking good (all the epilepsy problems aside) and it's still in my head, along with that Giacchino score.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 19:36
|
|
|
Sleeveless posted:Incredibles 2 ends at the exact same place The Incredibles did. Superheroes being accepted and allowed and the family making their peace with fitting in with society while having a healthy outlet in crime fighting was all right there on the screen on that last scene and 2 was basically rolling that back just so they could return to it again. I think that's part of the reason people come away with the feeling of it being an episode of a show or a rushed follow-up I was bummed they didn't do anything with that either and I hope they do in fact address that in the potential 3rd movie.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 22:56
|
|
|
if the toys dont like being abandoned by their owners why dont they reveal their sentience to humans? dumpass woody
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 23:09
|
|
|
Mantis42 posted:if the toys dont like being abandoned by their owners why dont they reveal their sentience to humans? dumpass woody Worldbuilding fool
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 01:22
|
|
|
The sentience thing is weird cause like, Buzz didn't know he was a toy. But he still froze when being played with like he knew he was a toy. So you think okay maybe it's some kind of forced thing, but later they prove they can just show themselves being alive to humans no problem so freezing when being played with is a choice. So why did Buzz freeze when being played with???
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 01:31
|
|
|
Macaluso posted:The sentience thing is weird cause like, Buzz didn't know he was a toy. But he still froze when being played with like he knew he was a toy. So you think okay maybe it's some kind of forced thing, but later they prove they can just show themselves being alive to humans no problem so freezing when being played with is a choice. So why did Buzz freeze when being played with??? fear
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 01:35
|
|
|
Primal instincts in toys make them freeze up when observed by sapient creatures, but they can force their way past it like in the climax of the first movie Obviously.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 01:47
|
|
|
Jim Henson's The Christmas Toy handled the rules of toy sentience in a more consistent way, wherein, if you're a toy and you're seen out of place from where a child left you, you just God Damned die and all the other toys relegate your empty husk to the corpse pile. Merry Christmas!
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 01:56
|
|
|
Toy Story does exactly the right thing in assuring us that there are rules, but never painting itself in a corner by actually spelling them out.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 02:02
|
|
|
I personally cannot wait for the live action Toy Story remake that goes into depth of why Buzz stops moving, where Woody came from, and most importantly has a giant subplot of why Sid is so mean to toys.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 02:07
|
|
|
Andorra posted:I personally cannot wait for the live action Toy Story remake that goes into depth of why Buzz stops moving, where Woody came from, and most importantly has a giant subplot of why Sid is so mean to toys. Chance the Rapper covers Randy Newman’s original score
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 02:09
|
|
|
The Silver Snail posted:Jim Henson's The Christmas Toy handled the rules of toy sentience in a more consistent way, wherein, if you're a toy and you're seen out of place from where a child left you, you just God Damned die and all the other toys relegate your empty husk to the corpse pile. Merry Christmas! You forgot about the funeral train parade!
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 02:13
|
|
|
Why does slinky dog and t-rex and hamm (and mr potato head and maybe woody?) have just generic person personalities while buzz, the army men, the little green men, etc have personalities strongly dictated by their form? What is the rule for that?
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 02:18
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:Why does slinky dog and t-rex and hamm (and mr potato head and maybe woody?) have just generic person personalities while buzz, the army men, the little green men, etc have personalities strongly dictated by their form? they draw their personalities from humanity's collective unconciousness of what their personalities 'should' be like, but humanity doesn't think of dogs or pigs or dinosaurs or potatoes as having personality on the same level as humans so those toys are free to organically develop their own
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 02:26
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:Why does slinky dog and t-rex and hamm (and mr potato head and maybe woody?) have just generic person personalities while buzz, the army men, the little green men, etc have personalities strongly dictated by their form? I imagine it depends on what their relationship with their father was like, mostly
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 02:37
|
|
|
IG-88 posted:I liked the movie quite a bit. Also, I can’t help but feel a lot of those locations were made with Disney World in mind. They’re going to totally adapt that carnival into Toy Story Land and I can see an “antique shop” there too. I kind of wondered if the carnival was intended to have thematic similarity to Pixar Pier at Disney California Adventure. Anyway, it was kind of weird that they made an allegory about finding love after divorce into a film for children, but I think that Toy Story 4 largely made it work.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 03:30
|
|
|
Given Buzz and Zurg start out fully believing and playing their roles, I'm guessing that toys have a built in personality and memory based on their back story and theme, though they can develop over time. Woody is so old he's forgotten his original roots, I bet, because he's had years to develop his own personality. The more abstract toys with little to no personality implied are more wild cards. I bet they're influenced somewhat by their owner and how they're played with.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 08:50
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:Given Buzz and Zurg start out fully believing and playing their roles, I'm guessing that toys have a built in personality and memory based on their back story and theme, though they can develop over time. Woody is so old he's forgotten his original roots, I bet, because he's had years to develop his own personality. I don't know where woody falls on nature vs nurture, he's the most independent and free thinking toy but he also seems like he's pretty much identical to what he was implied to be on woody's roundup. He's a heroic protagonist sherif that helps all his friends. (I mentioned mr potato head as the other marginal one, since I think "middle aged married man', is probably the canonical personality of mr potato head as much as anything would be)
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 12:41
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:I don't know where woody falls on nature vs nurture, he's the most independent and free thinking toy but he also seems like he's pretty much identical to what he was implied to be on woody's roundup. He's a heroic protagonist sherif that helps all his friends. (I mentioned mr potato head as the other marginal one, since I think "middle aged married man', is probably the canonical personality of mr potato head as much as anything would be) Thing is though Woody's more or less distinguished by and kicks off a lot of plots by being prideful, self-centered and domineering, even though all of those above things are also true. (might be specifically because he's so free-thinking, and he's been around the block) And I was gonna say Mr and Mrs Potato Head are basically a middle aged married couple, which is as close to a personality as their accessories imply, it's more Rex, Hamm and Slinky whose designs don't necessarily imply a personality. (though Rex is pretty ironic for a T-Rex to be a goofy, cowardly nerd) Jessie is a more obvious case where she basically still has her in-show personality but is also defined by a needy and panicky streak directly stemming from her abandonment, and Stinky Pete was already selfish and cowardly but become much worse from resentment and rejection. (and Lotso, of course, is a good amount of both) Lotso, Chuckles and the baby doll seem like an interesting contrast here since they're presumably all around the same age but have developed in radically different ways, the baby changing the least, Chuckles having developed a personality probably the total opposite of his design, and Lotso having become a monster but still having the mannerisms you'd expect from an off-brand Care Bear, if more appropriate to his age. (and I do wonder if the Sunnyside Daycare situational is more analogous to American slavery or treatment of immigrants. Probably both, but leaning towards slavery given the toys don't choose to come there) Random note but it also makes sense that the baby doll is the most physically powerful toy, since those things are tough and built to survive the most overenthusiastic coddling of young girls. Ken is pretty, and I hate to use the word, problematic, though it makes some sense through the idea that he's made to be part of THE girly girl toyline and has all the accessories and outfits to show for it, but without a Barbie around to play off of he has to play all the parts himself. He has the Dream House and that's where he's made himself comfortable. While the movie's Barbie is from the 80s/90s can-do everywoman era, probably for the sharpest contrast. Thematically, I think it makes sense that toys who have a personality strongly implied by their design either adhere to it or subvert it for comic/dramatic effect, while more 'blank slate' designs can be used for whatever.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 13:01
|
|
|
Maybe I'm making an excuse for the film because I liked it, but I thought that the reveal of the note being written by Ken at the end more reflected poorly on Ham and Mr Potato Head. Ken didn't really seem to care what other people thought of his role other than when he was being mocked for it in the poker scene. Otherwise he embraced his house, his wardrobe, his personality, etc. He didn't try to change himself to stop being a Barbie line toy. The note at the end showed to me that he's going to keep on being what he is, even if it makes the other toys uncomfortable. I wish the other toys didn't recoil from the note though.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 14:50
|
|
|
I feel like a crazy person because I really didn't like the superdad bits in the Incredibles 2. It just seemed like super generic hijink nonsense, like an extended and less amusing version of the babysitter stuff from the first. And at the end of the day it didn't seem like he learned anything from it other than 'let the fashion designer handle things', nor did it actually have much relevance to the plot and themes of the story in the end. I'd have been happier if they cut almost all of that to have more time developing the Helen/Screenslaver relationship.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 15:58
|
|
|
Neon Noodle posted:Guess who got their OFFICIAL JOHNK CANS WITHOUT LABELS DVD IN THE MAIL Leave it to John K to spend years grooming something that’s far too underdeveloped.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 16:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 12:27 |
|
|
dirksteadfast posted:Leave it to John K to spend years grooming something that’s far too underdeveloped. that's hilarious but also loving terrible.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 16:13
|
|
