|
OddObserver posted:The 90s are an unreasonably low bar. Which bar would you prefer? The country has steadily been doing since the late 1990s. I cited the 1990s because that seems to be vaguely the period being cited. The country has been doing better than the 2000s as well. Of course there are plenty of issues but to say “nothing changed” just doesn’t hold water. It doesn’t mean Putin is great but there needs to be some hold on reality here. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Jun 24, 2019 |
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 17:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 17:38 |
|
|
Ardennes posted:Which bar would you prefer? The country has steadily been doing since the late 1990s. I cited the 1990s because that seems to be vaguely the period being cited. The country has been doing better than the 2000s as well. American russian relations significantly shifted course after sarajevo bombings. Giving the rise to a new strongman: putin
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 18:01
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:American russian relations significantly shifted course after sarajevo bombings. Giving the rise to a new strongman: putin It was the standoff at the Pristina Airport. Also, US-Russian relations were fairly normal until the mid-2000s.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 18:21
|
|
|
Fantastic megabrain take. The guy who helped his friends siphon out possibly trillions of dollars worth of wealth out of Russia is not so bad, at least everyone living in poverty 20 years ago that could have died already did! Looking forward to reading your next post "granted, quality of life in the USSR was better in 1953 than 1945" Somaen fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Jun 24, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 18:30
|
|
|
Somaen posted:Fantastic megabrain take. The guy who helped his friends siphon out possibly trillions of dollars worth of wealth out of Russia is not so bad, at least everyone living in poverty 20 years ago that could have died already did! By “not so bad” I said he sucks but that doesn’t mean you can just change reality for a political take. Believe it or not it or not a country’s economy depends more than on the president being an rear end in a top hat or not. Btw as far as Putin bring corrupt and loving over the pensions, that is also true. It fact both can be true at once. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Jun 24, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 18:40
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:It was the standoff at the Pristina Airport. Also, US-Russian relations were fairly normal until the mid-2000s. Pristina was very against russia in terms of events so i could see how that would shift things aswell.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 18:44
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:Yeah I know that isn’t true man even if Putin sucks. Btw I have travelled and while certainly there is still plenty of inequality, the country isn’t suffering like it was in the 1990s. Yes, the RF has improved economically since the free-fall of the 90's. I guess I should have been more clear: I'm pretty sure that when Terminally Bored was saying that Poland was a shithole, he was referencing the rise of the far right and a return to that form of politics as represented by PiS (and an embrace of climate change denialism). That's basically my read on Russia from a political and ecological perspective as well: the persistence of right-wing politics that will refuse to curb Russia's massive oil and gas industry in the face of climate change (barring some local "apolitical" protests). It was more of an expression of general frustration re right-wing bs and climate denialism rather than a direct economic comparison to the 90s.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 18:44
|
|
|
Pembroke Fuse posted:Yes, the RF has improved economically since the free-fall of the 90's. I guess I should have been more clear: I'm pretty sure that when Terminally Bored was saying that Poland was a shithole, he was referencing the rise of the far right and a return to that form of politics as represented by PiS (and an embrace of climate change denialism). That's basically my read on Russia from a political and ecological perspective as well: the persistence of right-wing politics that will refuse to curb Russia's massive oil and gas industry in the face of climate change (barring some local protests). RF economy will jumbo size when the north routes are ice clear year round
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 18:45
|
|
|
Pembroke Fuse posted:Yes, the RF has improved economically since the free-fall of the 90's. I guess I should have been more clear: I'm pretty sure that when Terminally Bored was saying that Poland was a shithole, he was referencing the rise of the far right and a return to that form of politics as represented by PiS (and an embrace of climate change denialism). That's basically my read on Russia from a political and ecological perspective as well: the persistence of right-wing politics that will refuse to curb Russia's massive oil and gas industry in the face of climate change (barring some local "apolitical" protests). In that case I agree, I actually don’t see the situation as not that different and both Russians and Poles are suffering under reactionary politics. That said, at his point there probably isn’t much of an alternative for Russia expect for energy exports. Russia is slowly moving more to Natural gas exports over oil but that’s about it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 18:48
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:RF economy will jumbo size when the north routes are ice clear year round I envy those brave shareholders/strongmen, counting their бабло while everyone else chokes on the smoke from peatland wild fires.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 18:53
|
|
|
On a side note, I wonder what it would take for Russia to consider actively moving to renewables. There's no organized ecological movement to speak of (again, apart from some local apolitical anti-pollution protests)... and there's a good chance Russia won't experience the acute negative effects of climate change for some time. Perhaps if Europe finally goes carbon neutral?
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 18:59
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:By “not so bad” I said he sucks but that doesn’t mean you can just change reality for a political take. Believe it or not it or not a country’s economy depends more than on the president being an rear end in a top hat or not. Honestly the deep and extensive personal knowledge of Russia you insist on is really very weird if the three things you can come up with when talking Putin is "pension age, corruption and under him the economy improved", I mean from the economic point of view you have the much more significant monetization of benefits in 2004, the deep austerity of 2014 and destroying the social freedoms and economic infrastructure that was keeping the country alive after the break-up. The planes Russians now make are garbage, the space industry is nearly dead and so on, but your take is "well it was worse after the whole economic system collapsed and some proceeds from the mineral wealth trickled down"? I love that, looking forward to you defending the Kim dynasty or Pinochet because hey, it has been worse! I can't get over how shallow all the analysis you post about Russia is while boasting about having "lived there", "reading the archives" and now "travelling". Well no poo poo the guy has been the tzar for 19 years during peak oil prices and unprecedented global economic growth, are we supposed to commend him for not keeping Russia with its educated class and mineral wealth on the level of sub-Saharan Africa? Pretty comfortable calling the guy a warmongering monster for turning the whole country into a playground of his own historical delusions that is actively at war with any social structures needed to ever replace him with someone else Somaen fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Jun 24, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 18:59
|
|
|
Somaen posted:Honestly the deep and extensive personal knowledge of Russia you insist on is really very weird if the three things you can come up with when talking Putin is "pension age, corruption and under him the economy improved", I mean from the economic point of view you have the much more significant monetization of benefits in 2004, the deep austerity of 2014 and destroying the social freedoms and economic infrastructure that was keeping the country alive after the break-up. The planes Russians now make are garbage, the space industry is nearly dead and so on, but your take is "well it was worse after the whole economic system collapsed and some proceeds from the mineral wealth trickled down"? I love that, looking forward to you defending the Kim dynasty or Pinochet because hey, it has been worse! Yeah that’s a lot of hot takes at once, but my deep knowledge is from well living here for years and traveling. I have seen an improvement even if Russia does make good jet liners (let’s be honest they have always been hit or miss). Likewise the data has moved that direction including relatively low levels inflation (for Russia), unemployment, and life expectancy. The Russian Central Bank actually did a fairly good job after the crisis. But yeah the economy improved even though there were still huge issues with corruption and now pensions. Also most of that economic and social infrastructure was gone by the late 1990.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 19:24
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:Yeah that’s a lot of hot takes at once, but my deep knowledge is from well living here for years and traveling. I have seen an improvement even if Russia does make good jet liners (let’s be honest they have always been hit or miss). Likewise the data has moved that direction including relatively low levels inflation (for Russia), unemployment, and life expectancy. The Russian Central Bank actually did a fairly good job after the crisis. Truly great and deep insight from a person well acquainted with the situation, definitely not guy skimming wikipedia page: "the inflation level and unemployment is not so bad" quote:Also most of that economic and social infrastructure was gone by the late 1990. This is absolutely incorrect, the economic infrastructure of the Soviets is still what kept the quality of life outside of the megapolises for the economically unuseful (read: not working in the oil/gas industry or military) bearable after the collapse well into this decade. Now that everything is rotting away, the scale of depopulation of Russian core regions is staggering and all that happened while the good economic numbers were going up under Putin. Somaen fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Jun 24, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 19:41
|
|
|
Pembroke Fuse posted:On a side note, I wonder what it would take for Russia to consider actively moving to renewables. There's no organized ecological movement to speak of (again, apart from some local apolitical anti-pollution protests)... and there's a good chance Russia won't experience the acute negative effects of climate change for some time. Perhaps if Europe finally goes carbon neutral? Russia actively drills in Arctic. Our government will absolutely try to sabotage any efforts to combat climate change until the oil dries up.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 20:04
|
|
|
Somaen posted:Truly great and deep insight from a person well acquainted with the situation, definitely not guy skimming wikipedia page: "the inflation level and unemployment is not so bad" I guess I have just been sitting here years skimming a Wikipedia page. I am not impressed, come up with a real atguement. quote:This is absolutely incorrect, the economic infrastructure of the Soviets is still what kept the quality of life outside of the megapolises for the economically unuseful (read: not working in the oil/gas industry or military) bearable after the collapse well into this decade. Now that everything is rotting away, the scale of depopulation of Russian core regions is staggering and all that happened while the good economic numbers were going up under Putin. That Soviet economic infrastructure largely collapsed at that point, but it is true, the government did little to support marginal industries. As for the regions, it is highly dependent on where you are talking about, but yes certain regions have continued to lag and see population decline while others recovered. Also urbanization is likely only to continue. If you want to say there has been a story of “Two Russias” , fine. Btw Russia could certainly be doing better but the question is if another wave of mass privatization and opening up the Russian internal market is actually the answer. I think the regions that are already in poor shape would actually be doing even worse. It is also why there is growing discontent but very little agreement, because the Moscow intelligentsia is at generally cross economic purposes with both the region and many of the cities population. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Jun 24, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 20:12
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:I guess I have just been sitting here years skimming a Wikipedia page. I am not impressed. Very possible because "the 90s were bad, and you really gotta hand it to the autocrat because under him the economy improved" is not an opinion an educated adult states with the intent that it's going to be taken as serious, nuanced political analysis, especially one that references his authority and personal experience on the matter. Ardennes posted:That Soviet economic infrastructure largely collapsed at that point. As for the regions, it is highly dependent on where you are talking about, but yes certain regions have continued to lag and see population decline while others recovered. Also urbanization is likely only to continue. Мне дико любопытно, как человек, якобы проживший в России годами, сможет ответить на такой текст  Я не перестаю хуеть, как можно так плохо читать и писать на английском и строить из себя знатока, при том убедительно для местных дебилов?
Somaen fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Jun 24, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 20:25
|
|
|
Somaen posted:Very possible because "the 90s were bad, and you really gotta hand it to the autocrat because under him the economy improved" is not an opinion an educated adult states with the intent that it's going to be taken as serious, nuanced political analysis, especially one that references his authority and personal experience on the matter. Ой уже помолчи, мамкин аналитик, ко-ко-ко банду Путина в турму. Упрекаешь в пользовании википедии, а сам какие аргументы привел? Тебе ж, ема, не говорят за Путина идти голосовать. Успокойся и прочитай хотя бы, что тебе пишут.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 20:34
|
|
|
Somaen posted:Very possible because "the 90s were bad, and you really gotta hand it to the autocrat because under him the economy improved" is not an opinion an educated adult states with the intent that it's going to be taken as serious, nuanced political analysis, especially one that references his authority and personal experience on the matter. но это просто говно. Also keep it in English or there will be consequences, especially if you despite to poo poo on posters for daring to disagree with you. I think you are a complete coward and have nothing to say but absolute garbage. What a shame. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Jun 24, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 20:39
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:но это просто говно. Братец, зачем врать про годы путешествий и жизни в России? Говно тут твой уровень понимания после всего этого выпендрёжа, противно читать. Sure friend. I am just slightly perplexed by your poor knowledge of Russia and Russian while, again, referencing your deep personal experience with the situation.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 20:44
|
|
|
Somaen posted:Братец, зачем врать про годы путешествий и жизни в России? Говно тут твой уровень понимания после всего этого выпендрёжа, противно читать. I would be happy to talk to you in Russian, in a civilized manner, in the Russian thread (but to be honest here, the issue at hand is hiding your posts). Also, you have not shown more than an basic knowledge of Russia and have give only the most vague answers possible. I guess that’s why your so reliant on strawmen and personal attacks, but you could have just made an effort. Final warning btw Ardennes fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Jun 24, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 21:26
|
|
|
I'm not going to respond in Russian, because I'm embarrassingly rusty. However, if anyone wants to figure out how well Soviet social services infrastructure survived into the 90's, I'm sure there's a study one could dig up to at least start from. Its also possible to conclude both that: 1. The Russian economy did improve in the 2000s, particularly around exploiting natural resources. 2. The kleptocratic and right-wing leadership being in charge has led to a decline of social services and civil rights and probably has undermined other parts of the economy through sheer incompetence and greed. These aren't mutually-exclusive. Pembroke Fuse fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Jun 24, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 21:50
|
|
|
Pembroke Fuse posted:Its also possible to conclude both that: Yeah, I can agree with that.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 21:57
|
|
|
миньет. GDP is not a sound way to measure the russian economy specifically. There is a vast underground economy that works in the shadows of the world, if we did have the information of how much invisible money is made spent and taxed we wpuld see a very different picture of economic growth throuhhout 90s and early 2000s
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 21:59
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:миньет. I'm honestly not excluding that. Russia is a large nation with a lot of places for a grey or black economy to flourish. Heck, the USSR managed to develop extensive grey/black markets even with a deeply invasive security state. The problem is that its pretty difficult to estimate the impact of grey/black markets without extensive information (and it depends on whether the market is selling staples or luxury goods). We know for example that Soviet/GDR grey/black markets focused around three things: luxury goods (like jeans and other foreign imports), scarce social services (better health care access) and raw materials (particularly between factories trying to meet their planned targets). I have no idea what the grey/black market looks like today or in the 90s.
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 22:06
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:миньет. Granted, I haven’t see much evidence that has changed. Graft, bribery, and black wages are all still common, but maybe just more institutionalized than before. I would like to see the data if it existed. Although, generally growth patterns have followed energy prices for the last 20 years. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Jun 24, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 22:10
|
|
|
Ardennes posted:Granted, I haven’t see much evidence that has changed. Graft, bribery, and black wages are all still common, but maybe just more institutionalized than before. Black wages buying black goods. We see none of the transaction. So while the economy grew, the question is did the black market see parallel growth?
|
|
#
?
Jun 24, 2019 22:57
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Black wages buying black goods. We see none of the transaction. So while the economy grew, the question is did the black market see parallel growth? Well in most cases black wages are paying for normal goods, but not are not being recorded for the purposes largely of tax evasion. Usually the employer still pays the employee a nominal “white” wage but it depends on what job your talking a about.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 00:23
|
|
|
There are certainly instances of people purchasing things through shady means. When there were shortages of insulin some years ago, some people have made quick money on that by selling insulin from abroad. And now with sanctions in place, if you don't want to buy a generic, to get the right pills you might have to go to black market. Although from what I've heard from my friends they just find someone who's travelling abroad, and ask them to buy whatever medicine they need, so maybe there is no, like, huge organised black market when it comes to medicine. On the topic of sanctions, there are people reselling small amounts of luxury food items that are under sanctions. Cheeses, wines, the lot. But my understanding is most of this stuff is still available in bigger cities, through not black, but the grey market of Belarusian, Ukrainian, Kazakh, and other companies slapping their labels on European food products, so they can be allowed to be sold in Russian stores. I think at some point Russian government tried to do something about it, but I don't know how successful they were. Russians also buy loads of garbage from Ali Express nowadays. They often request to put a fake lower price on the parcel, so they don't have to pay fees. And then some people even sell pricier items, like electronics, at a marginal profit. Is that a black market? And there are, of course, just regular drugs. Even according to official statistics drugs consumption has been steadily rising. But some sources suggest that hard drugs consumption is actually getting lower, while more and more people smoke weed or 'spices'. In any case, the number of registered drug addicts is increasing, so the market must be growing, too. Similarly, anything illegal, from guns to fake documents also has its own market. Hard to say how much any of that contributes to economy as a whole, though, especially compared to other countries. But it's definitely nothing like Soviet period (except for drugs). Most things a regular person wants or needs they can easily buy, provided they have the money. E: Black wages are definitely only used for tax evasion, and in particular to avoid paying to pension funds (22% of your 'white' salary). People spend that money the same way they spend their official wages, though. It's not like they get paid in some special marked roubles that are not accepted in regular stores. Paladinus fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Jun 25, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 00:27
|
|
|
I'll never forget salmon caviar from world-famouse Belarus fjords. Also drat you guys, I missed all the fun arguing at work.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 15:52
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:миньет. Modern methods of GDP calculation actually include estimates of the size of black/grey markets based on some factors that correlate with them (e.g. size of cash transactions, tax avoidance etc.). I am fairly sure Russia adheres to these standards as well.
|
|
#
?
Jun 25, 2019 17:15
|
|
|
"MH17: Brown Moses is a Nazi, therefore Russia is innocent"
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2019 13:17
|
|
|
Even though I hate Mirotvorets for a variety of reasons, I wouldn't really call it a neo-nazi website. Some contributors might be, but it's neither here or there. Plus even if you consider Bellingcat's research doxxing akin to what Mirotvorets does, it's hardly something exclusive to Mirotvorets or neo-nazis.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2019 13:50
|
|
|
Doxxing is literal direct action and anyone involved with anti-fascism in any way does it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2019 14:00
|
|
|
We're such big Nazis we've started a project monitoring Nazis in Eastern Europe, complete with poo poo-posting https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/06/25/a-tough-weekend-for-ukraines-anti-lgbt-excremists/
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2019 14:45
|
|
|
Brown Moses posted:We're such big Nazis we've started a project monitoring Nazis in Eastern Europe, complete with poo poo-posting It's now even easier for nazis to find other nazis to collaborate. Thanks, Brown Moses.  E: Brown Moses? More like Brown Plague (nazism)! Paladinus fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Jun 26, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2019 15:37
|
|
|
Brown Moses posted:We're such big Nazis we've started a project monitoring Nazis in Eastern Europe, complete with poo poo-posting Finally I know why you are Brown Moses, and not Teal Moses or something.
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2019 15:47
|
|
|
Ah, the tell-tale nazi slogan, "suck my balls."
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2019 16:06
|
|
|
Paladinus posted:It's now even easier for nazis to find other nazis to collaborate. Thanks, Brown Moses. More like Red-Brown Moses, amirite?
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2019 16:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 17:38 |
|
|
Brown Moses posted:We're such big Nazis we've started a project monitoring Nazis in Eastern Europe, complete with poo poo-posting Brown moses supports lgbt Hitlers elite ss was gay Brown moses is a gay luxury nazi so mh17 is a hoax As is ukranian nationality
|
|
#
?
Jun 26, 2019 16:21
|
|