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There’s like a throwaway line in Chapterhouse implying that the navigators are gholas
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Jun 27, 2019 13:11
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Wasn't the whole point of the Sardaukars, that the myth of their combat prowess was so great, that no one ever dared to make a military move?
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Jun 27, 2019 14:38
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THE BAR posted:Wasn't the whole point of the Sardaukars, that the myth of their combat prowess was so great, that no one ever dared to make a military move? Yes. At one point Leto and Paul discuss the situation in a way that implies the Sardaukar and their supporting levies are a match for the the military forces of the whole Landsraad. And it’s taken for granted that any individual house could be easily wiped out by the Sardaukar. This obviously isn’t absolutely true, but it seems to be an article of faith. Not without reason either. For all that the Emperor was worried about the Atreides army, the Sardaukar and Harkonnens trounced them in a single night when it came down to it.
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Jun 27, 2019 14:47
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skasion posted:Yes. At one point Leto and Paul discuss the situation in a way that implies the Sardaukar and their supporting levies are a match for the the military forces of the whole Landsraad. And it’s taken for granted that any individual house could be easily wiped out by the Sardaukar. This obviously isn’t absolutely true, but it seems to be an article of faith. Not without reason either. For all that the Emperor was worried about the Atreides army, the Sardaukar and Harkonnens trounced them in a single night when it came down to it. Makes sense given the Atreides forces were surrounded, outnumbered and in unfamiliar territory and they made sure to do a decapitating strike first thing given their strength is from training, leadership and loyalty, while I get the impression the Sardaukar are mostly cold-blooded killers from a planet that's one big hellhole prison. The Fremen on the other hand have a huge home turf advantage, the element of surprise and they're both individually skilled and also able to work together and cooperate on a massive scale.
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Jun 27, 2019 14:55
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Tree Bucket posted:There's plenty of real-world historical analogues for the Emperor and the Houses, and even for theoretically-powerless-but-actually-super-influential-advisors like the BG. But has there been any time in history when there's been a monopoly on travel, like with the Guild? I really can't think of any. It makes it kind of tricky to work out the implications of a transport monopoly. I always assumed that CHOAM and spice was a direct metaphor for OPEC and the control of oil.
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Jun 27, 2019 15:33
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Pictured: one Sardaukar on Salusa Secundus
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Jun 27, 2019 15:43
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Take the plunge! Okay! posted:No, the real answer is it’s a work of fiction and poo poo doesn’t have to make sense, a couple of dudes can run a densely populated planet because the author says they can. Ditto for Sardaukar and everything else, like single biome habitable planets and similar. I don't recall reading about single biome planets. Caladan having humid forests or whatever doesn't mean it's that way on the whole planet. Arrakis is also ecologically diverse in the context of being a desert planet which, by the way, is the most common habitable planet in the real universe (i know this wasn't known in the 60's).
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Jun 27, 2019 15:50
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Communist Walrus posted:It's hard to answer because the reader is rarely given a feel for what the world is like outside the direct experiences of the main characters, who are almost always either members of the ruling class or some kind of elite. We don't really get a handle on what it means in terms of resources to say a Great House has an entire planet at its disposal. You get some figures based on the crew sizes for the harvesters and the number of troops Leto brought, and I recall thinking that was a lot and there must be subordinates.
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Jun 27, 2019 16:20
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whydirt posted:I always assumed that CHOAM and spice was a direct metaphor for OPEC and the control of oil.
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Jun 27, 2019 16:22
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If we're speaking numbers, how many Fremen there were anyway, since we know that they jihaded away literally tens of billions of people across the known universe and it took them all of 15 years. Were they just deciding that a given planet is full of unsalvagable heretics and glassed it? The total number of Fremen, given harsh conditions and requirements of secrecy couldn't have been higher that something like 100 million (way less probably).
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Jun 27, 2019 16:29
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Anne Frank Funk posted:If we're speaking numbers, how many Fremen there were anyway, since we know that they jihaded away literally tens of billions of people across the known universe and it took them all of 15 years. Were they just deciding that a given planet is full of unsalvagable heretics and glassed it? The total number of Fremen, given harsh conditions and requirements of secrecy couldn't have been higher that something like 100 million (way less probably). If every one of those 108 Fremen kills 100 people, that's your 10 billion done. I think the Mongols used that approach when they depopulated cities that had resisted them.
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Jun 27, 2019 17:12
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It's expressly mentioned in a conversation between the Baron and Thufir, he estimates there are 5 million Fremen. Which isn't a lot, smaller than the population of many major cities but it sounds like overall there are fewer people inhabiting every planet and the size of an individual house's military is probably only a few thousand. Throw in the fact that it's like old-timey warfare where all the killing is done with stabbing instead of guns and even a million soldiers (ignoring the Fremen who don't fight) you're going to steamroll the gently caress out of everyone you come across. Plus once you've conquered a planet and its army it's pretty likely you're going to add those soldiers to your pool exponentially.
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Jun 27, 2019 17:37
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The Baron tells Rabban there are five million people on Dune, but he means the populations of Arrakeen, Carthag etc and not the Fremen. It’s in the conversation where Rabban is like “I dunno boss, seems like there’s lots of these guys” and the Baron is like “uh huh, that’s nice Rabban now go play with your toys”. Thufir’s estimate is a minimum of five, and probably at least ten, millions of Fremen.
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Jun 27, 2019 17:41
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So how are the ways "no computers/AI" and "no nukes" affect ability to genocide? 1. No ICBMs or orbital bombardment or anything else that requires continuously calculating trajectories, complex navigational or targeting instruments, or fly-by-wire (do shields stop missiles?) 2. No drones or killbots except hunter seekers I guess 3. ? Still have poo poo like autocannons, chain guns, and miniguns, explosive rockets, dumb bombs, sand worms, whatever pre-programmed scripts a mentat can come up with, hot lava pits, iron maidens, stabbing lots of people, etc. Phil Moscowitz fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Jun 27, 2019 |
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Jun 27, 2019 18:18
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When the Harkonnens ruled arrakis, was the Baron himself based there, or did he stay on giedi prime? It’s been a long time since I’ve read the books
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Jun 27, 2019 18:26
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He stays on GP with lovely Feyd and lets Rabban handle Dune
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Jun 27, 2019 18:29
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skasion posted:He stays on GP with lovely Feyd and lets Rabban handle Dune That's after they take it back from the Atreides though right? Or was Rabban there before too?
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Jun 27, 2019 18:29
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Phil Moscowitz posted:That's after they take it back from the Atreides though right? Or was Rabban there before too? Before too, as far as I know.
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Jun 27, 2019 18:47
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Phil Moscowitz posted:That's after they take it back from the Atreides though right? Or was Rabban there before too? I don't know of many languages that could stand up to being written on a continually-growing plan - unless it's using some kind of Reed Solomon-like encoding where the message can be restored even if up-to-a-third can be reconstructed - but to do that you need Galois finite field theory, which require a supercomputer to compute, unless you're doing it in hardware. Clearly I'm not reading way too much into this.  Makes me wonder how long a fief is, though - with the Spice having the ability to lengthen peoples lives, it seems like an especially short tim BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Jun 27, 2019 |
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Jun 27, 2019 18:52
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The Fenrings were there at the same time as Rabban — Count Fenring was the emperor’s proxy responsible for keeping his smuggled spice supply up, not the actual fief holder of the planet.
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Jun 27, 2019 18:55
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skasion posted:The Fenrings were there at the same time as Rabban — Count Fenring was the emperor’s proxy responsible for keeping his smuggled spice supply up, not the actual fief holder of the planet. Just now I had the idea that I've heard somewhere that the feifs are 70 years, but I have no clue where that's from, so I probably pulled it out of my rear end?
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Jun 27, 2019 18:56
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Phil Moscowitz posted:(do shields stop missiles?) Shields definitely stop missiles in the sense of "projectiles, generally" but maybe not in the sense of like Tomahawk Missiles or whatever. There may be a theoretical maximum to the force they can absorb/deflect I don't think it ever really comes up. The science is essentially magic so I could see them saying that the shield is actually strengthened by kinetic/explosive force or what-have-you, sort of the opposite of slow things getting through.
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Jun 27, 2019 18:58
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The Bloop posted:Shields definitely stop missiles in the sense of "projectiles, generally" but maybe not in the sense of like Tomahawk Missiles or whatever. There may be a theoretical maximum to the force they can absorb/deflect I always had the idea that the reasons why shield-lasgun explosions were so indistinguishable from nuclear explosions was because the energy produced from a solid beam of energy hitting a nigh-impenetrable force-field was so large that it would split atoms like when two mirror-polished plutonium half-spheres are smashed together at a high speed. BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jun 27, 2019 |
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Jun 27, 2019 18:59
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Phil Moscowitz posted:So how are the ways "no computers/AI" and "no nukes" affect ability to genocide? The V2 rocket was pre-computer (wikipedia says it has an analog computer, not sure if that's permitted) so maybe a basic ICBM could be made. I would think the guild would have something to say about flying your nukes around in space though. With Tleilaxu genetic engineering you could make a pigeon guided missile that actually works, so heatseeking missiles etc. should be doable.
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Jun 27, 2019 21:33
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Xaintrailles posted:The V2 rocket was pre-computer (wikipedia says it has an analog computer, not sure if that's permitted) so maybe a basic ICBM could be made. I would think the guild would have something to say about flying your nukes around in space though. Shoving a human suicide pilot in a missile doesn't seem like a big deal in the Duniverse, human life is cheap there.
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Jun 27, 2019 21:36
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They don't seem to mind stuff that just waters the plants on time, it seems to be computers making actual important decisions for people. I imagine the concept stays fresh because there is at least a general awareness that, if not for the Butlerian jihad rules, the Baron could run Arrakis with like ten thousand guys, mostly mechanics and pleasure slaves.
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Jun 27, 2019 23:13
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I wonder exactly how much it sucks to be the average person on Dune. A lot obviously, but specifically how lovely it is to be some accountant while superhuman calculators and robot eyed dudes and seemingly psychic blue eyed jerks are telling you you're about to gently caress up three minutes from now while your witch of a manager is halfassedly watching you do it whole plotting how to get to the break room to get the rest of the spice coffee before anyone notices so she doesn't have to brew more
RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Jun 27, 2019 |
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Jun 27, 2019 23:22
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RBA Starblade posted:I wonder exactly how much it sucks to be the average person on Dune. A lot obviously, but specifically how lovely it is to be some accountant while superhuman calculators and robot eyed dudes and seemingly psychic blue eyed jerks are telling you you're about to gently caress up three minutes from now while your witch of a manager is halfassedly watching you do it whole plotting how to get to the break room to get the rest of the spice coffee before anyone notices so she doesn't have to brew more For he knew the source of thirst.
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Jun 27, 2019 23:31
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Communist Walrus posted:It's hard to answer because the reader is rarely given a feel for what the world is like outside the direct experiences of the main characters, who are almost always either members of the ruling class or some kind of elite. We don't really get a handle on what it means in terms of resources to say a Great House has an entire planet at its disposal. The fact that you never hear any member of a Great House (not that I can remember, anyway) talk about their regional governors makes me think that most planets are so low in population that they can be effectively ruled by tiny groups of people. Remember, before Leto gets the boot, House Atreides ruled over two different planets while consisting of literally two people. There's no cousin Jeff Atreides who gets sent to govern Carthag once they hit Arrakis, it's just Leto and Paul. This is all to say that not every planet has billions of people like Earth, and thus is probably much easier to keep under one's thumb (especially if you have an entire planet of your own dedicated to churning out the best soldiers known) than you might expect. I think part of it is that the communities of a post-silicon space fuedalist society don't really resemble urban civilizations as we currently know them, in all their interconnected global trade and population boom, but rather the medievalism of clade societies that live within proximity to each other and still exercise raw and localised human power relations. The difference being that overly complex societies are short-lived, precarious, and abstracted while every house in the known Dune universe has a much longer perception of time and intergenerational power dynamics, and is therefore humming along in a very slow but steady pattern of social modification. Just a thought; maybe someone can add to this in a more coherent way.
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Jun 27, 2019 23:33
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What do you loving mean Luos Prime is out of wire because the Jihad got there? Get some from Luos Secondary! My boss will kill me if she sees I hosed up the report again like Todd said I would while tripping, she's already eying that stupid box
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Jun 27, 2019 23:37
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RBA Starblade posted:What do you loving mean Luos Prime is out of wire because the Jihad got there? Get some from Luos Secondary! My boss will kill me if she sees I hosed up the report again like Todd said I would while tripping, she's already eying that stupid box https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWjHsI9P0UY
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Jun 27, 2019 23:44
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Phil Moscowitz posted:So how are the ways "no computers/AI" and "no nukes" affect ability to genocide? no thinking machines, not no computers? Ix of course having very good machines, new machines. So the cut off doesn't seem to work the same way we usually consider it. It's machines that are too much like a human mind. Hunter seekers aren't like mentat analysis or w/e, I think it might not be "this thing can calculate, smash it," but more like "this was able to formulate and achieve an intent, bust it down!" So maybe "get to and kill paul, get to the city and blow up" is fine, but "run the numbers and tell me what path to take to fold space" is haram. We distinguish between a simple calculator with an lcd & a desktop computer, but maybe to the dunies that's pretty much the same thing. Until you push it too far with whatever software. They probably don't even have software the whole paradigm is probably fuckin crazy. Nessus posted:They don't seem to mind stuff that just waters the plants on time, it seems to be computers making actual important decisions for people. I imagine the concept stays fresh because there is at least a general awareness that, if not for the Butlerian jihad rules, the Baron could run Arrakis with like ten thousand guys, mostly mechanics and pleasure slaves. yeah beat
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Jun 28, 2019 00:02
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machines must be destroyed when they become dangerously creative
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Jun 28, 2019 00:04
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SniperWoreConverse posted:machines must be destroyed when they become dangerously creative Tay no
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Jun 28, 2019 00:12
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SniperWoreConverse posted:yeah beat
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Jun 28, 2019 00:13
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The rule is poetic, not hard and fast: "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." People will disagree in their interpretations: calculators probably freak some people out, even if they only calculate what you tell them to. Leto II thinks that people would be horrified by the machine he uses to write his memoirs, which only transcribes what he thinks at it.
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Jun 28, 2019 00:15
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Doc Hawkins posted:The rule is poetic, not hard and fast: "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." People will disagree in their interpretations: calculators probably freak some people out, even if they only calculate what you tell them to. Leto II thinks that people would be horrified by the machine he uses to write his memoirs, which only transcribes what he thinks at it. If it can hear your thoughts, he's broken the rule in the most direct way possible. They'd be horrified how literally he took it.
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Jun 28, 2019 00:32
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Has anybody said Dune Ex Machina yet
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Jun 28, 2019 00:34
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Nessus posted:Why did all the thots come to follow Muad'dib? Thirsty thots come running for the juice of sapho! It’s how thots acquire speed!
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Jun 28, 2019 01:38
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Dune but a workplace comedy on NBC
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Jun 28, 2019 02:25
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