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1994 Toyota Celica posted:preson jacobs has convinced me that the only real purpose of the Night's Watch was to manage a steady tithe of human babies north of the Wall to the Others through the Night Gate. then good queen alyssane ended the northern lords' prima nocte rights, and the watch had to resort to even more sordid supply means, like Craster's Keep Makes about as much sense as anything else they're doing up there.
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Jun 25, 2019 17:37
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1994 Toyota Celica posted:preson jacobs has convinced me that the only real purpose of the Night's Watch was to manage a steady tithe of human babies north of the Wall to the Others through the Night Gate. then good queen alyssane ended the northern lords' prima nocte rights, and the watch had to resort to even more sordid supply means, like Craster's Keep i feel it would be inappropriate if the grand moral of the story was "dang the Only Good Targ hosed up real bad by doing a sensible good thing that one time" like yeah gurm brutal but that's more an abercrombie type of brutality
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Jun 25, 2019 18:04
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Mameluke posted:The real confusing thing about the Night's Watch is how the North never uses "hey we maintain an Australia prison for you fuckers' miscreants" as a political football against the other kingdoms Extended prison or exile, Australia style, only is a reasonable approach in a society that had some concept of human rights and concern for the wellbeing of their own criminals. If you don't have those, you just maim or execute criminals and be done with it. "The Watch isn't going to take away our rapists and murderers any more" is an issue that will be met immediately with a response of "Just kill them, big deal." It's yet another piece of evidence that GRRM's approach to world-building is just Rule Of Cool and realism be damned, despite whatever some people say about him trying to be realistic.
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Jun 25, 2019 20:48
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Kuiperdolin posted:They'll release the books to tie in with the last season DVDs from "The Death of an American Trollkin" 50 year retrospective. ftfy
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Jun 25, 2019 21:03
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PupsOfWar posted:i feel it would be inappropriate if the grand moral of the story was "dang the Only Good Targ hosed up real bad by doing a sensible good thing that one time" i dunno, particularly in the context of his older sci fi output it also seems pretty gurm to go with "queen alysanne comes up north with jahaerys, finds the northermost lords treating their subjects unspeakably (prima nocte + sending the male bastards thus produced north to the Others), does the humanitarian thing and ends the right + extends the Gift south to take those smallfolk communities out from direct service to those northern lordships, but in so doing upsets the pact of the Others and First Men, creating a ticking clock until the Others come south again because they're no longer getting an adequate baby tithe"
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Jun 25, 2019 21:04
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The biggest proof that D&D are big dumb dullards is that I'm sure 'King Bran' does happen but I'm 1000000% sure that in GRRM's mind its far from a triumphant victory for our heroes and more of a slightly unsettling conclusion by our exhausted populace to finally bring peace and Bloodraven will be the one who's really running things. It's like the ending to the book I, Robot. Better hope our 1,000 year supergenius super powerful emperor king is benevolent. Don't really have a choice! I'm also positive that the King's Landing and the Winterfell plots in the last season were swapped in chronology for no good reason whatsoever
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Jun 26, 2019 17:24
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Mike N Eich posted:
BEst theory i've read is that Arya's white horse was supposed to be her wolf
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Jun 26, 2019 17:35
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:BEst theory i've read is that Arya's white horse was supposed to be her wolf I'm pretty positive that no matter what happens, the end of Book 7 won't have Arya going to King's Landing determined to kill Cersei just to go "nope, nah" and then leave.
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Jun 26, 2019 17:37
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chaosapiant posted:I'm pretty positive that no matter what happens, the end of Book 7 won't have Arya going to King's Landing determined to kill Cersei just to go "nope, nah" and then leave. I mean we can certainly debate the quality of the ending scenes here but "nope nah" is a far cry from what actually happened. She turned back when her replacement father figure, on the verge of completing his suicidal revenge quest, urges her not to throw her life away on a similar suicidal revenge quest like he did. edit: in regards to it happening in the book or not I think the scene is kind of schmaltzy for GRRM, but if Arya's going to live I'm pretty sure something more interesting than "She becomes a killer assassin and killer assassinates everyone on her list" is gonna happen Intel&Sebastian fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Jun 26, 2019 |
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Jun 26, 2019 18:29
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Intel&Sebastian posted:I mean we can certainly debate the quality of the ending scenes here but "nope nah" is a far cry from what actually happened. She turned back when her replacement father figure, on the verge of completing his suicidal revenge quest, urges her not to throw her life away on a similar suicidal revenge quest like he did. Its best to think of the last season of the show as a plot summary so while this may not have been earned in this show, its whats supposed to have happened in the notes. Same for "Danny burns Kings landing because she concludes she has to rule through fear". It might not be fully baked in but the sentence in the summary was there so we know why it happened. Intel&Sebastian posted:edit: in regards to it happening in the book or not I think the scene is kind of schmaltzy for GRRM, but if Arya's going to live I'm pretty sure something more interesting than "She becomes a killer assassin and killer assassinates everyone on her list" is gonna happen As a contrast to Jaime deciding "actually in the end all I am is a murderous incest lover"
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Jun 26, 2019 18:32
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Mike N Eich posted:
huh Kind of makes a lot of sense when you try to imagine it that way.
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Jun 26, 2019 18:34
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hobbesmaster posted:As a contrast to Jaime deciding "actually in the end all I am is a murderous incest lover" lol yeah but as you mention that's another thing I think could work a lot better as a fleshed out book thing than the final season cocktail napkin summary. It's a "love conquers all" story but in this case the "all" is Jaime's entire arc trying to turn him into a good guy who hangs out with the other good guy characters.
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Jun 26, 2019 18:37
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I can dig "love conquers all" as a cautionary, be-careful-what-you-wish-for type deal, but yeah, it was weird that they were back-to-back episodes. He can go back to Cersei in Act 3 if he is good in Act 2, but they neutered most of that also. Jaime and Tyrion leaving as friends was a change that really bummed me out.
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Jun 26, 2019 18:39
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Mike N Eich posted:I'm also positive that the King's Landing and the Winterfell plots in the last season were swapped in chronology for no good reason whatsoever How does the Winterfell plot go if this true? Rhaegal is presumably still killed by Euron, Drogon runs off with Dany's corpse, and the Night King plus ice dragon fails to rapidly kill everyone because reasons? I guess it's easy enough to concoct a reason where the Night King wants to get at Bran personally, rather than just nuke him with ice-fire.
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Jun 26, 2019 18:40
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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I assumed in that scenario Jon doesn't kill Dany immediately after she turns Fantasy Hitler and their whole inter-personal deal and Jon deciding she needs to go happens over the course of the run up to BOW and he offs her after it?
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Jun 26, 2019 18:49
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PittTheElder posted:How does the Winterfell plot go if this true? Rhaegal is presumably still killed by Euron, Drogon runs off with Dany's corpse, and the Night King plus ice dragon fails to rapidly kill everyone because reasons? I guess it's easy enough to concoct a reason where the Night King wants to get at Bran personally, rather than just nuke him with ice-fire. I assume that after defeating frost-satan that Danny then tries to rule the kingdom and for various reasons it all turns to crap because no one knows her and everyone hated her father and her horde of pillaging armies are no good for making the people feel safe. Sansa probably declares herself queen in the north which Danny sees as a rebellion, diplomacy breaks down, throw in some misunderstandings and set up a conflict. Danny kills Sansa and John ends up killing Danny in the smouldering ruins of Winterfell
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Jun 26, 2019 18:49
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Intel&Sebastian posted:I mean we can certainly debate the quality of the ending scenes here but "nope nah" is a far cry from what actually happened. She turned back when her replacement father figure, on the verge of completing his suicidal revenge quest, urges her not to throw her life away on a similar suicidal revenge quest like he did. This is true enough and I’m not giving credit where it’s due. The scene itself was good. But it felt like Arya’s whole time in Kings Landing was pointless and for the Hound to give her a 30 second speech and she change her mind when she’s proven to be one of the most stubborn and persistent characters felt like the writers were just tired of the show and these characters. I actually did like most of season 7 and 8, it just felt like there were a lot of missing episodes as we coast from one set piece to the next with little build up/planning.
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Jun 26, 2019 18:49
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Intel&Sebastian posted:I mean we can certainly debate the quality of the ending scenes here but "nope nah" is a far cry from what actually happened. She turned back when her replacement father figure, on the verge of completing his suicidal revenge quest, urges her not to throw her life away on a similar suicidal revenge quest like he did. By then she has killed a lot of people, including the entire Frey clan, so it's a little too late for the Hound to appeal to her humanity.
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Jun 26, 2019 19:15
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Maybe Arya should just have died in some ice mushroom cloud as she stabbed the ice king.
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Jun 26, 2019 19:24
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Alhazred posted:By then she has killed a lot of people, including the entire Frey clan, so it's a little too late for the Hound to appeal to her humanity. I don't know that he's telling her to go be a saint or anything, just to go do something else, especially at this particular moment since she's about to get herself killed over it.
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Jun 26, 2019 19:27
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i think in the books it will* be a cool "oh poo poo, this is grim" moment if arya or stoneheart wipes out the freys without sparing the few cool freys (roslin and her brothers) the show never conceived of the freys as a large complicated faction whose labyrinthine internal politics force all members into convoluted webs of abuse and codependence, partly because d&d don't much care about feudalism politics, but mostly because it's the sort of thing an adaptation wouldn't have time for even in an ideal universe where all the books were finished and the show had taken a full 12 seasons to adapt them properly. So they weren't able to make the Frey genocide land as hard as it could've. *normal caveats, gurm dead etc
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Jun 26, 2019 21:04
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D&D don't care about anything and are just really stupid and bad people. I mean, you can say that they never cared about the feudal politics, but then why the gently caress was that, and not the Night King/Winter/Existential Threat Built Up Since Literally the First Scene of the First Episode the climax of the series and it's final conflict? Why did they change the title of the series from the one that referred to this existential threat to instead one that refers exclusively to the feudal politics? I mean, maybe they really do care about the politics. But considering how stupid they are and terrible at writing they are, it would be very difficult to tell.
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Jun 26, 2019 21:09
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:D&D don't care about anything and are just really stupid and bad people. I mean, you can say that they never cared about the feudal politics, but then why the gently caress was that, and not the Night King/Winter/Existential Threat Built Up Since Literally the First Scene of the First Episode the climax of the series and it's final conflict? Why did they change the title of the series from the one that referred to this existential threat to instead one that refers exclusively to the feudal politics? I think they were excited about it at first and into it and realizing Martin's vision was cool. Then they ran out of his material and had to write their own and they weren't so good at it. And the reviews got worse and they'd been doing this for 6 or 7 years now. Then the end was in sight and they had other offers, Star Wars and States Rights Revisionism. They stopped caring about creating a great product or realizing a vision and just want it done. From the perspective of fame and money and future job offers they are secured. Whether the end is masterful or not doesn't have much impact on their lives. And they aren't great writers, and their minds are on other things so they just ravened it in. Get it ravened. It's like phones but since they don't have phones they use ravens. Hire me HBO i'll do the season 7-8 remake.
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Jun 26, 2019 21:33
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I don't think they're great or anything but I also don't think it's a huge shame upon their heads that they were really good at editing and translating the good books into good TV and not as good as translating bad books and no books into good TV. Not like they had many options besides pressing on. I think everyone throwing huge projects at them should be taking that into consideration but lol if I was them I'd be saying yes to everything and putting money in the bank while I still can. Star Wars especially, not like I'd be the first person to make that fanbase unhappy if I hosed up anyway lmfao. Edit: God help us all on that Confederacy poo poo though lmfaooooo
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Jun 26, 2019 22:01
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Jaime once again neglecting all personal growth and happiness to return to an abusive and toxic ex hit home pretty hard for somebody who is at the age where friends from high school are doing that very thing right now!
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Jun 27, 2019 17:56
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Chieves posted:Jaime once again neglecting all personal growth and happiness to return to an abusive and toxic ex hit home pretty hard for somebody who is at the age where friends from high school are doing that very thing right now! The Jaime show ending is what's convinced me that though DnD probably had some of the general endings of the hypothetical books I'm sure they changed a lot of poo poo too. I just finished Jaime's last chapter and basically his final two chapters in the books are the exact opposite of how it all ends in the show. In his second last chapter he breaks the siege of Riverrun and receives a letter from Cersei literally begging him to come help her after she's imprisoned by the High Sparrow. He throws the letter in the fire and thinks something like 'my duty is to Tommen, not Cersei' In his last chapter he ends the siege in the Blackwood's lands and meets up with Brienne who tells him that he has to come alone to fight the hound or else Sansa will die, and Jaime apparently just leaves his army and goes off all Willy nilly. It's kind of weird cause before he meets Brienne Jaime goes and fights Ilyne Payne and jokes about how lovely he still is fighting with his left hand. From Jaime's perspective going off to fight the hound to try and save Sansa with just Brienne as backup is insanely risky and would likely lead to his death, so him actually do it shows his change into a fundamentally honourable character. But in the shows it's 'nope actually I was evil all along, well off to fight Euron Greyjoy!' brienne: 'wait who the gently caress is Euron Greyjoy'
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Jun 27, 2019 21:08
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Like "Jaime realizes that he needs to return to make peace with/confront/kill/support Cersei as a loving brother and they die in eachother's arms" story beat is possible but the way it's played out is laughable. The way he's just like "eh gently caress it I love her and hate everyone else" is contrary to not only his character development but even his established character from the earliest parts of the story where you learn all his dickish swagger is a direct response to him doing one of the most noble things in the entire series and being branded a monster for it by a hosed up system. The "I never really cared about the people" line is undoing his characterization back to pre-book 1 levels, it's insultingly bad.
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Jun 27, 2019 21:31
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A Typical Goon posted:The Jaime show ending is what's convinced me that though DnD probably had some of the general endings of the hypothetical books I'm sure they changed a lot of poo poo too. I just finished Jaime's last chapter and basically his final two chapters in the books are the exact opposite of how it all ends in the show. The show pretty much ignored Dance. The only book to come out once the show had started.
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Jun 27, 2019 21:44
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pseudanonymous posted:The show pretty much ignored Dance. The only book to come out once the show had started. Not true, it ended by making GBS threads all over everything too.
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Jun 27, 2019 21:56
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Solice Kirsk posted:Not true, it ended by making GBS threads all over everything too. 
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Jun 27, 2019 21:59
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Solice Kirsk posted:Not true, it ended by making GBS threads all over everything too. 
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Jun 27, 2019 23:07
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How do y'all feel about grrm word for word repetition? i've noticed it a lot more on my re-read since you now it's not all spaced out. also i bought fire and blood what is wrong with me?
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Jun 28, 2019 11:34
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Solice Kirsk posted:Not true, it ended by making GBS threads all over everything too. it is known.
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Jun 28, 2019 11:35
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Jaime's ending doesn't bother me at all, its probably one of the better endings the show went out on. People backslide all the time, people have complicated relationships with other people in their lives thats interwoven with abuse and dependency and all sorts of things. I believe it. You don't have to literally believe the words coming out of his mouth to understand that he doens't know how to live his life in a fundamentally different manner. Also his last scene with Tyrion was good. I'm guessing that GRRM's "outline" was extremely barebones and it meant that D&D had to really fill in the spaces between plot points. There are things that I can see making sense, like Arya sailing West, in the books, but only because she'll be such a broken shell of a human being after becoming a mass murder machine that she can no longer live in this world. They didn't give us that Arya, because D&D are fundamentally cowards with their favorite characters. Except when it comes to shooting scenes when they get raped, they love doing that.
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Jun 28, 2019 16:19
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Yeah the Jaime ending is not a happy ending given his arc, but I don't see that as a problem. It's not all that unreasonable that he'd have difficulty separating from the person he's spent his whole life with, and ultimately would choose to go back to her. It's poorly executed because D&D can't write, but that applies to everything.
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Jun 28, 2019 17:46
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lol imagine making everyone hate your blockbuster TV series because you felt too beholden to the plot points of a book that will never actually exist.
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Jun 28, 2019 18:07
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There plot points weren't what was bad. The journey was bad, not the destination. They couldn't even think of things for the characters to say to each other. Like they just had a checklist and took the shortest path between each item. I think every single plot would have worked with competent writing and pacing and foreshadowing, but they didn't bother.
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Jun 28, 2019 18:18
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:There plot points weren't what was bad. The journey was bad, not the destination. They couldn't even think of things for the characters to say to each other. Like they just had a checklist and took the shortest path between each item. I think every single plot would have worked with competent writing and pacing and foreshadowing, but they didn't bother. I mean I agree 100% but not having the journey is what makes the plot points bad for the TV show. They should have known they didn't earn certain ones and make new endings instead of feeling like they owed this Absolute Fucker anything at all when it comes to ending the TV show. Shortening these last two seasons to throw more FX money at certain eps was an extremely stupid idea
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Jun 28, 2019 18:25
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Intel&Sebastian posted:I mean I agree 100% but not having the journey is what makes the plot points bad for the TV show. They should have known they didn't earn certain ones and make new endings instead of feeling like they owed this Absolute Fucker anything at all when it comes to ending the TV show.
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Jun 28, 2019 18:54
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I'm not sure you can infer the ending more than the broadest strokes. Everything from Season 5 on was so drastically different. We know for sure Stannis wont sacrifice Shireen at Winterfell, so what happens with that storyline? Does he die there? Does he win and defeat the Boltons? Does that mean there is no Battle of the Bastards in the books? Who the gently caress knows? Whats going on with Aegon and the Bloodfyres? Is he going to take King's Landing? Will Cersei even ever be Queen? Will she blow up the Sept of Baelor? Whats going on with Euron and Dorne and all that poo poo? Does it end up not mattering at all? I feel like what we got is *dramatically* different than what the non-existent, never-to-be-released books would have been.
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Jun 28, 2019 19:33
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