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Thanks for the responses guys.
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Jun 28, 2019 16:52
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Kobal2 posted:<France in WW2> Additionally the French were very aware that the Maginot Line, you know, ended. Hence multiple attempts to sign a treaty with Belgium (and Luxembourg?) to extend the line all the way up to Liege, and possibly then into the Netherlands to link up with the Water Line. Belgium refused the treaties because they feared it'd antagonize the Germans, however, instead trying to stay neutral this time around. Probably becoming very dependent on France was also a tough sell politically at the time. The rapid deployment of French and British forces into Belgium and the Netherlands in reaction to the German invasion was similarly meant to get to some strategic rivers and then dig in to basically extend the line to the ocean similar to the above plan. Then not just shutting Belgium out and extending the Maginot line on the French side of the border wasn't done because that would antagonize the Belgians. Also, also, you know the saying how generals/armies/countries or whatever keep preparing to fight the last war rather than the current one? Well, WW2 was very much that. So in WW1 the German strategy (Schlieffen plan) was to race through Belgium all the way to the sea and swing around, basically surrounding Paris and taking it from the north or even the west. Except oops, long supply lines are a real obstacle and the combined numbers of the French, Belgians and British after a few months of fierce fighting and relatively mobile warfare manage to establish a line from Verdun to the sea and that's that. So here comes WW2, and as described above, the Anglo-French plan is to do what worked last time, but even bigger and better this time. Instead of holding on to a sliver of Belgium and having the war in Belgium and Northern France, let's rush up to some strategic rivers and keep more of these countries out of German hands this time. I mean, it worked last time right? Except the Germans had seen that their plan last time didn't work. So now instead of racing to the sea, they are cutting through the Ardennes. And instead of then cutting south to cut off the Maginot line, they cut west to cut off the British and French forces which have just rushed up into Belgium and the Netherlands. A thing which they expected to have happen, because you know, last time. Now these British and French forces need to switch from a rapid advance into a rapid retreat using the same roads now clogged with refugees while having their supply lines threatened by a rapid German advance. This is a very bad combination of factors, and the endresult is a fighting retreat to Dunkirk. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Jun 28, 2019 |
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Jun 28, 2019 22:03
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Orange Devil posted:Additionally the French were very aware that the Maginot Line, you know, ended. Hence multiple attempts to sign a treaty with Belgium (and Luxembourg?) to extend the line all the way up to Liege, and possibly then into the Netherlands to link up with the Water Line. Belgium refused the treaties because they feared it'd antagonize the Germans, however, instead trying to stay neutral this time around. Probably becoming very dependent on France was also a tough sell politically at the time. That, and while I'm not a specialist in that area by a long shot I get the feeling that both the French and the Belgians privately thought the other party would throw them under the Panzerbus without a pang of conscience if that proved expedient - so the Belgians didn't want the French to build the line west of Belgium because if they did and poo poo hit the fan the French coulda (woulda) left them to hang while they retreated back home. And conversely when the Germans breached in the Ardennes the French forces in Belgium were slow to respond because the generals wanted to make super duper doubly sure the Belgian & British forces would stick with the alliance and really, honest, for real, no fooling block the German path through Belgium instead of waving a white flag as soon as the last French tank was out of sight. And yeah, the Exode hosed with any timely military response a lot ; as did having to coordinate troop movements and plans between three separate countries (and civilian leadership). Still I mean, even if this is still a hindsight, "for want of a nail" opinion ; I think that the plow through the Ardennes was a hell of a gamble on the Germans' part. Had we managed to bomb their corridor shut for even a couple days, or a week ; had there been fewer administrative snafus etc... the German troops in France would have been stranded in a really poo poo position. They went through fuel and munition supplies at an unprecedented pace and *really* needed their highway back to the Ruhr. In our timeline Hitler won that poker hand, but WW2 could also easily have been the Great German Foolhardiness of 1938-39
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Jun 28, 2019 22:56
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Literally if they had poo poo weather in the Ardennes during a critical few days they could have been utterly hosed.
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Jun 29, 2019 11:42
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The first half of WW2 is basically the story of the Germans getting a series of incredible lucky breaks and exploiting them for all their worth.
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Jun 29, 2019 11:57
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Man why is it that the only thing that Americans are interested in wrt Europe and France is WW2 and military anecdotes from WW2? Is it because that’s the last time you were, arguably, the good guys?
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Jun 29, 2019 14:18
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Man why is it that the only thing that Americans are interested in wrt Europe and France is WW2 and military anecdotes from WW2? I blame it on the history channel running 247 nazi documentaries so americans think of germans and nazis as 1 entity Its also horseshit that the french are cowards etc like they held longer against the nazi war machine than any other european entity. Yet americans still say it all the loving time
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Jun 29, 2019 17:48
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Man why is it that the only thing that Americans are interested in wrt Europe and France is WW2 and military anecdotes from WW2? I'm not American, but I still find it kinda funny that this applies to France as well. WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:I blame it on the history channel running 247 nazi documentaries so americans think of germans and nazis as 1 entity 
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Jun 29, 2019 17:59
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Anyway yesterday a couple hundred comrades went for a test run of a bridge blockade in paris. Maybe you’ve seen the images on the cops spraying them with gas. Here’s a nice long video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XaV2iQqs_U If you want the short version, there’s a hearty lol at 5:18, and the gassing proper starts at 7:25. Enjoy!
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Jun 29, 2019 18:14
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Cerebral Bore posted:I'm not American, but I still find it kinda funny that this applies to France as well. Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Jun 29, 2019 |
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Jun 29, 2019 18:25
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WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Its also horseshit that the french are cowards etc like they held longer against the nazi war machine than any other european entity. Yet americans still say it all the loving time Yeah that one has always been amusing to me - because France has been the aggressive warmongering rear end in a top hat of Europe for pretty much its entire history. I can't think of a single European country or city-state we haven't declared war on, invaded or at least marched troops through without asking permission first at some point. Maybe Finland ? I mean we even committed grand theft papacy at one point !
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Jun 29, 2019 19:14
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Kobal2 posted:Yeah that one has always been amusing to me - because France has been the aggressive warmongering rear end in a top hat of Europe for pretty much its entire history. I can't think of a single European country or city-state we haven't declared war on, invaded or at least marched troops through without asking permission first at some point. Maybe Finland ? I mean we even committed grand theft papacy at one point ! No, you got up here as well at one point. Toplowtech posted:I am french and i think you are a suffering from the most American delusional nonsense called the "good guys" disease. The most dangerous notion any group can share is "We are the good guys" because human beings tend to hold on to this belief until after the atrocities have already been committed.I am not sure what kind of good guys would have commited monte casino's three days of rape. Buddy, what the gently caress are you on about?
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Jun 29, 2019 19:27
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Cerebral Bore posted:Buddy, what the gently caress are you on about?
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Jun 29, 2019 21:16
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does anyone know how hot its going to be after the weekend? im visiting from the us :-\
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Jun 29, 2019 23:33
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cargo cult posted:does anyone know how hot its going to be after the weekend? im visiting from the us :-\ It's going down after the week-end.
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Jun 29, 2019 23:49
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It should start going down tomorrow
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Jun 30, 2019 02:02
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Where exactly are you visiting? The weather is nice and cool at Saint-Pierre and Miquelon-Langlade, shouldn't exceed 14°C over the next few days. You can just google "météo" + the name of whatever place you're going to. In my region I've found the site meteo60 has the most accurate forecast, dunno if that's also true elsewhere.
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Jun 30, 2019 08:54
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https://twitter.com/NassiraELM/status/1146082856466358272 The woman and her daughter were already sent back to France once. They landed at Toulouse and were given no assistance, only told to stay at the airport or the train station. They were chased out of the train station and later the mother was raped. She would have committed suicide if not for her daughter. Let pays des droits de l'homme! 
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Jul 2, 2019 18:07
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Bitch didn't even have an Instagram I bet
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Jul 2, 2019 18:10
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Kassad posted:Letpays des droits de l'homme!
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Jul 3, 2019 04:13
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Random question, but are comicbooks popular in France the same way manga is in Japan, or is that an overexaggeration?
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Jul 3, 2019 04:42
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punk rebel ecks posted:Random question, but are comicbooks popular in France the same way manga is in Japan, or is that an overexaggeration? edit: i misread your post, but i think yeah it's extremely popular but nowhere near japan level (because who can reach that). Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Jul 3, 2019 |
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Jul 3, 2019 05:09
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Also, what do you mean by comicbooks: US comicbooks (ie Marvel and DC stuff) or bande dessinée franco-belge?
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Jul 3, 2019 06:14
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There are no books in my bookcases, only endless rows of Lanfeust de Troy, Blake et Mortimer, Sillage and Gotlib.
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Jul 3, 2019 06:38
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Kassad posted:https://twitter.com/NassiraELM/status/1146082856466358272 It's really weird when Germany is head and shoulders above you in the decency and morality department. Maybe we could do with a bit of Vergangenheitsbewältigung ourselves at some point.
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Jul 3, 2019 06:49
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Most people I know seem to have a favorite childhood BD at the very least. I know quite a few serious adult readers, though that's among students and the Parisian middle class. Still, the BD section of the library of my more populaire suburb is also by far the busiest section, particularly with youth. I'd venture that it's far rarer for Americans to actually read DC/Marvel comics, I know I've never actually read a mainstream super hero comic, but we know about it due to saturation in other media; whereas most people in France have likely read a BD at one point.
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Jul 3, 2019 06:53
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100YrsofAttitude posted:the Parisian middle class. Tonnerre, j’ai été démasqué !
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Jul 3, 2019 07:00
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Toplowtech posted:It's a slight over exaggeration, comics are popular but the way American comics book have been distributed in France (mostly a few magazines and trades) is historically far far far worse than the way anime and manga are. There was a black and white/read left to right publishing of Dragon Ball in France in 1984. Many Anime tv show were showned in France 1-2 years after their showing in Japan (dbz and saint seya were big in the early 90s). To compare you had only a few marvel magazines during the 80s (i like to read 6 years old xmen Claremont runs!) with low numbers and the occasional DC trades on the market during the same period. American comics also had to compete with the really good local productions so yeah they are there but they are nowhere near the level of the Japanese production. I see. What are French comic books like? Are they distinctly different the same way Japanese comics are different from American? Bourricot posted:Also, what do you mean by comicbooks: US comicbooks (ie Marvel and DC stuff) or bande dessinée franco-belge? Graphics novels, comic books, manga, anything like those.
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Jul 3, 2019 08:10
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punk rebel ecks posted:I see. What are French comic books like? Are they distinctly different the same way Japanese comics are different from American? A lot less superhero stuff, the equivalent would probably be a poo poo ton of fantasy/scifi/adventure/thriller comics (which are probably the main popular medium for our own production in these genres, as live-action is hardly up to the task without the appropriate budget). There's also a lot in the way of lowbrow humor comics. "Serious" comics are fairly well-represented, you can pick up documentaries, historical fiction, slice-of-life, or otherwise experimental stuff. Then there's all the production specifically aimed at kids, which I'd say is near comparable in volume to adult stuff. Lots of classic series like Asterix and the likes are still in production under younger authors, YMMV if they're still worth a look. There's also been several movie adaptations that have mostly been loving abysmal, but that doesn't seem to stop producers from trying. Manga (and anime) are very popular, though it's more of a generational thing (we had an hilarious moral panic over "dumb violent japanese trash" a few decades ago). American comics seem to be more of a crusty nerd hobby, though if you're in an adult into comics at all you've probably heard of/read things like Saga, a few graphic novels and similar series that can be considered alternative.
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Jul 3, 2019 08:36
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At least in Belgium, there's usually an American comics shelf in bookstores that's dominated by Star Wars tie ins or the Walking Dead, with almost no superhero stuff. I don't imagine that it's very different in France, despite the surge in visibility the Marvel movies gave to the genre.
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Jul 3, 2019 08:57
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There are several differences between Franco-Belgian comics and American comics. The first one is that back in the day, they used to be published a few pages at a time in weekly or monthly publications such as Pilote, Fluide Glacial or Pif Gadget, unlike American comics that are published as issues of a single comic. If you’re familiar with the way Japanese manga are published, it should remind you of something like Jump. Eventually these individual pages were collected in hardbound albums with hard cardboard covers. Today French comics are more often directly published as full albums with 40 to 80 pages. As for their style they are quite diverse as illustrated below. Tintin (Hergé, published in Le Petit Vingtième then Le Soir, 1929-1970’s, 24 albums)  Rahan (Lecureux and Chéret, published in Pif Gadget a few pages at a time and then as issues, and now as albums, 1969-current, 67 albums)  Lanfeust de Troy (Arleston and Tarquin, directly published as albums, 1994-2000, 8 albums and several spinoff series)  La Rubrique à Brac (Gotlib, published a couple pages at a time in Pilote, 1968-1974, 5 albums)  Blake et Mortimer (Jacobs, and now various authors, prepublished in Le Journal de Tintin and now directly as individual albums, 1946-current, 25 albums)  These are all series, but we also have graphic novels that are published directly as albums: Henri-Désiré Landru (Chabouté, 2006)  Le Cri du Peuple (Tardi, 2001-2004, 2 albums)  Houppeland (Tronchet, 1993-1999, 2 albums)  Does that answer your questions?
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Jul 3, 2019 09:29
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escape mechanism posted:At least in Belgium, there's usually an American comics shelf in bookstores that's dominated by Star Wars tie ins or the Walking Dead, with almost no superhero stuff. I don't imagine that it's very different in France, despite the surge in visibility the Marvel movies gave to the genre. The big BD stores (like the FNAC or Boulinier) typically have one wall shelf dedicated to imported US stuff en anglais dans le texte, and one or two for translated American stuff. Compare and contrast with the 6 or 8 manga shelves, or the "normal" BD shelves extending as far as the eye can see. There are also dedicated manga boutiques, but I don't know any comics store (though this being Paris, there probably is at least one somewhere)
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Jul 3, 2019 10:41
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Kobal2 posted:The big BD stores (like the FNAC or Boulinier) typically have one wall shelf dedicated to imported US stuff en anglais dans le texte, and one or two for translated American stuff. Compare and contrast with the 6 or 8 manga shelves, or the "normal" BD shelves extending as far as the eye can see. There are also dedicated manga boutiques, but I don't know any comics store (though this being Paris, there probably is at least one somewhere) I think I've found a couple American comics dedicated stores. I'm pretty sure there's one at Bercy. More often than not it's not unlike the bigger stores with more BD and manga and a small supply of comics.
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Jul 3, 2019 14:23
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punk rebel ecks posted:I see. What are French comic books like? Are they distinctly different the same way Japanese comics are different from American? Yeah, they're a very different genre. Often referred to as "Franco-Belgian" because the main French authors and the main Belgian authors often worked together, and for the same publishers. As for all things, Wikipedia is handy for a big list and a general overview, so that I don't have to bother making an effort post myself. Tintin, Astérix, and the Smurfs are all known worldwide. But there's also Métal Hurlant, which had an English-language publication entitled Heavy Metal, which was more about graphic novels and short series for young adults in the fantasy and sci-fi genre. Jean Giraud aka Moebius is one of the most celebrated and influential authors there, you can also look at Druillet, Bilal or Jodorosky. In between, you had some other oddities, like Fred, a personal favorite, with his absurd and surreal stories.   
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Jul 3, 2019 15:17
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Cat Mattress posted:Excellent stuff I'll add Schuiten and Peeters
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Jul 3, 2019 15:45
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Wow, all this looks awesome. Thanks for the responses. I'm curious to why comics are still popular in France but not in America?
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Jul 3, 2019 16:35
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punk rebel ecks posted:Wow, all this looks awesome. Thanks for the responses. vvv yes, the excellent Belgium production helps too Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Jul 3, 2019 |
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Jul 3, 2019 17:05
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Popularity of the Franco-Belgian comics is one of the clear cultural divides between the British Isles and continental Europe. Literally everyone on the continent has read Lucky Luke and knows what a Marsupilami is, in Britain they're a foreign curiosity
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Jul 3, 2019 17:10
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"asterix? it's pronounced asterisk  "
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Jul 3, 2019 17:15
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punk rebel ecks posted:I see. What are French comic books like? Are they distinctly different the same way Japanese comics are different from American?
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Jul 3, 2019 17:21
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