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Open Marriage Night posted:Didn’t Tattooed Man have a pretty big role in Final Crisis: Submit? Which was one of the few Big Two comics where pretty much every character was a person of color.  Somehow I missed that one-off when Final Crisis was coming out, so when Tattooed Man showed up in the main story saying Black Lightning sacrificed himself to save his family and gave him the Metron circuit, I remember thinking 'They couldn't show that on-panel?'  That's a thing that always peeved me about big comic events. Like, oh, you don't read Batman? Well then you won't understand why Red Hood has the Helmet of Dr. Fate when he shows up in Incredible Crisis #5.
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Jun 29, 2019 21:57
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LadyPictureShow posted:
Final Crisis felt like what you wrote up there, but in every issue, especially in the end. Oh hey, you didn't read Superman 3D? Well here is a space vampire from put of nowhere in the final issue, enjoy.
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Jun 29, 2019 22:12
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FC was supposed to be a 12 issue series but they decided to chop out important pieces and spread them out to specials.
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Jun 29, 2019 22:25
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Madkal posted:Final Crisis felt like what you wrote up there, but in every issue, especially in the end. I have no sympathy for anyone who didn’t read Superman Beyond 3D. Those two issues were amazing.
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Jun 30, 2019 04:54
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bessantj posted:That's a hell of a thing. What is in people's opinion the most convoluted storyline from the big two? (I'm sure Manga has had some legendary convoluted storylines.) Though I haven't read it Clone Saga always sounded convoluted. The story of Scarlet Witch's children probably should get at least an honorable mention for sheer number of confusing retcons and rewrites.
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Jun 30, 2019 05:26
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I remember finding Final Crisis surprisingly easy to follow, as long as you don't skip Superman Beyond. (That was a big thing even when it came out, if you skip those it doesn't make sense.) For a story whose goals were tying up the narrative strings of the entirety of Jack Kirby's Fourth World, jumpstarting the next stage of the New Gods, and kicking off Batman R.I.P. and Flash Rebirth, all wrapped in a metatextual metaphor for the power of indefinite serial storytelling in a massive company-wide crossover event... it's pretty straightforward. It's definitely more coherent than Zero Hour. (But you do need to read Superman Beyond.) GMo fills his stories with these tripped-out adventures through space-time, and plants wild, imaginative seeds, but it all comes across pretty cleanly when you just sit down and read them. Like, Seven Soldiers has this reputation for being this intricately woven kaleidoscopic story about the mysterious forces that control the fate of the universe assembling a team that doesn't know they're a team (so that they can't be broken up by the sinister forces that want to stop them) to combat the latest recurrence of a cyclical extinction-level event, their seven overlapping but vastly different stories each contributing an equal part in stopping the apocalypse, and, yes, it is. But it's also just a very digestible, delightful read. When Bulleteer, the lady who was given superpowers without her consent by her ex-husband, because that's his fetish, kills Gloriana Tenebrae, the main villain, by accidentally running her over with a Volkswagen Beetle, you understand perfectly well what happened and why, and it's just hilarious and a lot of fun. Final Crisis is, Darkseid got the Anti-Life Equation, which gives him mass mind-control basically. The heroes fight a desperate battle, they get all the big heroic moments they're supposed to get, but the bad guys just keep winning. Orion, the guy who was destined to defeat Darkseid, was killed with a bullet fired backwards through time. Batman figures it out, and he uses the same bullet to shoot Darkseid. Then The Flashes juke the Black Racer and trick him into running face-first into Darkseid- Darkseid goes down in the 14th round. Then a reality vampire shows up, because you didn't read Superman Beyond.  Anyway, he's the reason the bad guys were winning and he's pissed. Superman defeats him by breaking the fourth wall. fin~ By contrast (and submitted for consideration for "most convoluted") the narrative scope of Return of Donna Troy was, "Wonder Woman's Silver Age sidekick comes back from the dead," and this is the angle they went with: 
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Jun 30, 2019 05:37
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Angry Salami posted:The story of Scarlet Witch's children probably should get at least an honorable mention for sheer number of confusing retcons and rewrites. Out at least, they did.
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Jun 30, 2019 05:49
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Angry Salami posted:The story of Scarlet Witch's children probably should get at least an honorable mention for sheer number of confusing retcons and rewrites. I thought that she had imagined them and due to her powers they "came to life" but were never real. What versions have there been?
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Jun 30, 2019 07:20
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bessantj posted:I thought that she had imagined them and due to her powers they "came to life" but were never real. What versions have there been? They became hands for a villain. Later on their souls were reborn and are Wiccan and speed
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Jun 30, 2019 07:24
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Master Pandemonium is great 
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Jun 30, 2019 07:31
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bobkatt013 posted:They became hands for a villain. Later on their souls were reborn and are Wiccan and speed Also afaik it has never been addressed if Wiccan and Speed were created from birth, or if their souls took over the bodies of existing children, meaning Billy and Tommy could just have absolutely horrific existentially terrifying satanic origin story lol
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Jun 30, 2019 07:49
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Cubone posted:Also they were actually fragments of Mephisto's soul, and destroyed him when he tried to absorb them It was addressed, their souls were just put in the pipeline of souls waiting to be born. It's like reincarnation, but more complicated.
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Jun 30, 2019 08:24
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Lurdiak posted:It was addressed, their souls were just put in the pipeline of souls waiting to be born. It's like reincarnation, but more complicated. Not sure if I'm relieved or disappointed.
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Jun 30, 2019 08:28
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Lobok posted:The Clone Saga isn't really convoluted so much as it's massively bloated. Explaining what happens is difficult but only because it goes on so long and so there are lots of plot points and characters. Was the clone saga still going on when Maximum Carnage happened? I feel like it was, but who knows anymore. Reading it as a kid, and the one plot point that stuck in my craw was Norman Osborn stealing Peter and Mary Jane's baby, and them thinking it had died (apparently). The comics followed Allison Mongrain for a while, after she poisoned Mary Jane and seemingly took the baby. Robbie Robertson spent time trying to track her down, and finally found her, only for Molten Man to kill her while mind controlled. It was a lot of 'oh ho! The baby isn't really dead!' Mary Jane convinces herself/comes to terms that the baby died, but Peter is hell-bent on finding his daughter. He battles Green Goblin, and he eventually comes to a safehouse with a locked room. His daughter is in there, he's certain of it! He opens the door... And Aunt May (The real Aunt May; not actually dead) clocks him in the head with a vase.  The baby plot is dropped; no further discussion, aside from editors saying 'Nope. Baby's dead. Stop asking us, Jesus Christ.' There was a lot going on during the clone saga. Also, we're there more clones than three? I remember there being Ben, Kaine, and Spidercide.
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Jun 30, 2019 08:29
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Maximum Carnage was earlier.
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Jun 30, 2019 08:30
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bobkatt013 posted:They became hands for a villain. Later on their souls were reborn and are Wiccan and speed Cubone posted:Also they were actually fragments of Mephisto's soul, and destroyed him when he tried to absorb them Lurdiak posted:It was addressed, their souls were just put in the pipeline of souls waiting to be born. It's like reincarnation, but more complicated. .......... I see.
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Jun 30, 2019 08:35
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LadyPictureShow posted:There was a lot going on during the clone saga. Also, we're there more clones than three? I remember there being Ben, Kaine, and Spidercide. There was also Guardian, Jack, and the dead one that turned out to have been a clone of Ben. Also these guys: 
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Jun 30, 2019 08:54
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SPIDER-CIDE
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Jun 30, 2019 09:26
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LadyPictureShow posted:Was the clone saga still going on when Maximum Carnage happened? I feel like it was, but who knows anymore. You might be thinking of the very beginning of the Clone Saga because in Amazing Spider-Man there was a Shriek and Carrion storyline going on at the time. For me it's easy to remember the Clone Saga as starting around Amazing #400 because that's the death of Aunt May story and in the issues leading up to that she has a stroke and is in a coma. This is the reason Ben Reilly comes back.
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Jun 30, 2019 21:50
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Lobok posted:You might be thinking of the very beginning of the Clone Saga because in Amazing Spider-Man there was a Shriek and Carrion storyline going on at the time. For me it's easy to remember the Clone Saga as starting around Amazing #400 because that's the death of Aunt May story and in the issues leading up to that she has a stroke and is in a coma. This is the reason Ben Reilly comes back. But it started about six to eight months before ASM400 because even at that early stage it was dragging on for too long.
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Jul 1, 2019 12:57
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Random Stranger posted:But it started about six to eight months before ASM400 because even at that early stage it was dragging on for too long. It started "around" #400, yeah. By the time May died Ben Reilly had already been making teasing appearances and then finally showing up, so that we know who it is that's crying outside May's home by himself.
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Jul 1, 2019 14:52
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No, we knew who Ben was in Amazing 394, six months before May died. His teased appearances were 2-3 months prior to that. He'd already adopted the Scarlet Spider identity well before May died as he shows up in costume in ASM 400.
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Jul 1, 2019 16:05
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I don't remember him being in costume in that issue, huh. But yeah I was being generous with saying it started around 400 because I tend not to remember issue numbers. I do know issue 400 so it's easy to remember the Clone Saga as starting just before that even though "just before" is almost a year of lead up. I know it comes after Maximum Carnage because I remember those happened in the late 300s. Good lesson for me not to talk in approximate terms when Google is right there to help me be exact!
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Jul 1, 2019 16:42
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Considering the Clone Saga lasted for ten thousand years I think you guys are being a little harsh about someone being off by six months on when it started.
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Jul 1, 2019 17:17
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Remember, I'm the idiot with a complete set of singles, the trades and I'd own the HCs if I'd remembered to preorder volume 1.
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Jul 1, 2019 18:01
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Your semiregular reminder that for all the deets on the Clone Saga (as well as a really fun and interesting read) you can always read The Life of Reilly
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Jul 1, 2019 19:05
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Whoa so Aunt May died and was revealed to be alive while the clone saga was happening/loose ends were being wrapped up?! And I think I conflated Maximum Carnage happening during the Clone Saga because my brother and I played the game on Sega Genesis quite a bit at the time Clone Saga was happening in the comics.
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Jul 1, 2019 19:56
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LadyPictureShow posted:Whoa so Aunt May died and was revealed to be alive while the clone saga was happening/loose ends were being wrapped up?! Most of human history happened during the Clone Saga.
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Jul 1, 2019 20:15
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Clone Saga started the year after Maximum Carnage, but as a kid it felt like forever between the end of Maximum Carnage and the debut of Scarlet Spider.
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Jul 1, 2019 20:21
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Aunt May wasnt resurrected until years later.
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Jul 1, 2019 20:58
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Rhyno posted:Aunt May wasnt resurrected until years later. Skwirl posted:Most of human history happened during the Clone Saga.
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Jul 1, 2019 21:05
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I'M POSTING REAL ANSWERS drat IT
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Jul 1, 2019 21:06
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Rhyno posted:I'M POSTING REAL ANSWERS drat IT There's paintings of 2 Spider-Men in a cave in France.
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Jul 1, 2019 21:14
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Skwirl posted:There's paintings of 2 Spider-Men in a cave in France. It has feces smeared below it in a crude calendar marking out several years.
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Jul 1, 2019 21:18
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Skwirl posted:There's paintings of 2 Spider-Men in a cave in France. They're pointing at each other, right?
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Jul 1, 2019 21:51
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Open Marriage Night posted:Clone Saga started the year after Maximum Carnage, but as a kid it felt like forever between the end of Maximum Carnage and the debut of Scarlet Spider. I mean, you're not wrong. Depending on how many comics you were reading back then it might have felt like time was dilated because of how many ongoing Spider-Man titles there were. There was sometimes more than one Spider-Man issue a week! And so there was just more stuff that happened between any two given moments. Maximum Carnage in particular was 14 issues long but that only took five months.
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Jul 1, 2019 23:01
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Skwirl posted:There's paintings of 2 Spider-Men in a cave in France. Yvonmukluk posted:They're pointing at each other, right?  e: This medieval scroll, though, you could make a case for 
Cubone fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Jul 1, 2019 |
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Jul 1, 2019 23:11
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In all seriousness, there's an argument that the clone saga goes on until this very day. Ben Reilly is still running around in Vegas as far as I know.
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Jul 1, 2019 23:30
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Skwirl posted:In all seriousness, there's an argument that the clone saga goes on until this very day. Ben Reilly is still running around in Vegas as far as I know. I define the Clone Saga as being about who is Spider-Man. Reilly can be around or have his own books and what not but if there's no sense that he might supplant Peter then to me it's not the Clone Saga. That's part of why his first death (lol comics) had to be that definitive disintegration.
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Jul 2, 2019 00:29
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Skwirl posted:In all seriousness, there's an argument that the clone saga goes on until this very day. Ben Reilly is still running around in Vegas as far as I know. So are Ben and Kaine (I think he came back) still clones of Peter, or has that changed since they came back to life? Unless the storyline is they never actually died!
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Jul 2, 2019 01:31
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