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Zore posted:
I wonder how much of that is Martin setting things up so that would be the outcome, considering his thing is "Kill all the Red Court, nothing else matters".
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Jun 29, 2019 02:24
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Something else Butcher's said in interviews is that Harry is gifted by wizard standards at direct combat magic, but every member of the Council has their particular gifts. Ancient Mai, for one, is apparently the White Council's person in charge of making magic items. Those sentinel statues of the Council that have shown up a couple times and Harry treated them as a deadly serious threat are apparently made by her among lots of other things.seaborgium posted:And the Merlin (I think the Gatekeeper helped, but it's been a while) managed to use one ward to hold off a Red Court army chasing them so they could portal out and save their wounded. Seeing them all cut loose should be interesting. The Merlin also effortlessly contained that black negative stone gas that killed everyone it came into contact with.
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Jun 29, 2019 04:07
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Beachcomber posted:Isn't Verus' power basically save-scumming anyway? The author is very active in the Xcom modding community. I think he worked on Long War.
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Jun 30, 2019 20:22
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Ben Nevis posted:Apropos of nothing, the urban fantasy-ists might well enjoy Bryan Camp's Crescent City series. It deals with the deities of New Orleans. The first has a down and out magician trying to find out who killed the city's Fortune. The second, a psychopomp trying to find a missing soul. Naturally, things escalate. They're entertaining and New Orleans makes a great magical city. I just got through reading these and they're neat. Very Tim Powers Last Call esque. You can tell the author actually lives in new orleans.
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Jun 30, 2019 20:24
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I just got through reading these and they're neat. Very Tim Powers Last Call esque. You can tell the author actually lives in new orleans. ...the author is going to an unhealthy amount of effort to specify the bars the character is wearing a t-shirt from, the bars the character goes to, etc. He's not wrong, but it reads like a travelogue at points.
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Jun 30, 2019 20:33
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ulmont posted:...the author is going to an unhealthy amount of effort to specify the bars the character is wearing a t-shirt from, the bars the character goes to, etc. He's not wrong, but it reads like a travelogue at points. I like that. I want local flavor. A lot of those locales have their own personality and history too (tipitina's is a storied venue, etc.)
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Jun 30, 2019 20:35
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I watched the first episode of The Rook today and it was ... good? Though I never read the book.
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Jun 30, 2019 21:09
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:A lot of those locales have their own personality and history too (tipitina's is a storied venue, etc.) I live there (city not bar; I am far from tipitina’s); I know.
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Jun 30, 2019 21:14
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ulmont posted:I live there (city not bar; I am far from tipitina’s); I know. Some of us aren't so fortunate! Also ever since Dr. John died I've been listening to New Orleans jazz to the extent that I now have to turn it off when my wife comes home, so
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Jun 30, 2019 21:16
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I just got through reading these and they're neat. Very Tim Powers Last Call esque. You can tell the author actually lives in new orleans.
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Jun 30, 2019 21:37
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BabyFur Denny posted:I watched the first episode of The Rook today and it was ... good? Though I never read the book. I just finished watching it as well and thought it was a good adaption of the book so far. My main complaint is that the episode cut off before you started getting more information about the who/what/when of the Checquay. I think it would have been better, pacing wise, if they had either done an extended episode or aired the first two episodes back to back since that's a big part of what I liked about the book. I am probably going to re-read the book this week because I remember the broad strokes but want a refresher.
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Jun 30, 2019 22:18
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anilEhilated posted:That's pretty good as praises go; bought the first one, will report. To be fair my first impulse was to call it "A poor man's Last Call, in New Orleans" but that seemed unduly harsh even if meant as a compliment. It was the book I wanted to read right now. He may have problems making a series out of it.
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Jul 1, 2019 00:20
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BabyFur Denny posted:I watched the first episode of The Rook today and it was ... good? Though I never read the book. As someone who was a fan of the book, I absolutely hated it. Most of us speculated there would be some significant changes but it is barely recognizable. About half the main characters are cut, several major plot points are drastically different in ways that will impact both story and character development, and it’s not... fun. The rook is a fun and sometimes silly book which makes the whole supernatural spy agency fun. The show is a super generic spy thriller that happens to involve people with abilities. The best comparison I can give is that it got the DC Superhero movie treatment. It’s Batman vs Superman not Guardians of the Galaxy. For some specifics of what changed: Farrier is King, Grantchester is Queen. Gestalt and Myfanwy are the only other original court characters. Everyone else was written off the show. The opening few days where Myfanwy is trying to find herself are mostly gone and Farrier shows up really early to tell her she knows she isn’t Myfanwy and to help her. Farrier has none of the creepy and controlling persona of the book. Myfanwy’s recordings are kind of a mess and don’t convey anything useful. Myfanwy is a shown to be obviously depressed and even a cutter. Grantchester is shown to be a sleaze but in a really heavy-handed way. Other than that he comes off really boring. Definitely not the ridiculous and self-interested dandy from the the book. Olivia Munn’s new character is as boring as new Grantchester. Gestalt starts to feels close to the book then they reveal Gestalt had sex with Myfanwy. Ingrid is the best and closest character but she’s also had like one scene. Oh, and the Chequey office is a super boring and a generic office building. Really small set, glass offices, no private residences. It got a 33% on Rotten Tomatoes from review so far and that's pretty generous. There's very little buzz, positive or negative, about it anywhere but it is just so generic and forgettable. Edit: This review perfectly captures my feelings about it: https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/25/18744469/the-rook-review-daniel-omalley-book-adaptation-starz-emma-greenwell-olivia-munn Saltpowered fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Jul 1, 2019 |
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Jul 1, 2019 04:35
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The thing with Dresden is that you rarely ever get to see anyone but Harry or the people trying to kill Harry cut loose in a magical sense, so it's both hard to have an idea of just where he ranks relative to other powerful wizards and hard not to feel like he's just getting more and more outrageously powerful. Verus is rather explicitly surrounded by people who are all stronger than him in terms of magical power, whether it stems from brute force ( Morden, Sagash, Caldera, Onyx, Deleo ) or technique ( Landis, Vihaela, Cinder, Anne ). In addition, he's also outmatched politically, and just barely managing to stay one-step ahead of the machinations of organizations whose power he can't stand up to. The best Dresden books were the ones where Harry felt like the underdog. He hasn't felt like one in... quite a while. And that's part of why Skin Game kind of sucked, especially compared to Cold Days. Cold Days had enough going on to make Harry feel pressed. Skin Games... eh? Butcher's fights are written with a dynamic energy that makes them entertaining to read. Jacka's fights are way better in a narrative sense. Not that it is entirely Butcher's fault- you can't have as many fights as he does per book and have them all carry the narrative weight. Thinking on it, the Winter Knight thing could have been a great opportunity to inject some tension back into the series. What if his connection to Winter meant he couldn't use fire anymore and had to use a whole range of spells he wasn't familiar with? What if it blunted his magical ability somewhat, and instead of just being physically stronger, he had to rely on that physical strength in lieu of the magical might he had before? Instead he's just physically and magically stronger which is uh; hum. Not really compelling?
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Jul 1, 2019 20:26
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:The thing with Dresden is that you rarely ever get to see anyone but Harry or the people trying to kill Harry cut loose in a magical sense, so it's both hard to have an idea of just where he ranks relative to other powerful wizards and hard not to feel like he's just getting more and more outrageously powerful. I agree with all this, and then you add Harry's new Winter Boners to the mix and I'm just seinfeld-nope.gif
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Jul 1, 2019 20:57
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awesmoe posted:I agree with all this, and then you add Harry's new Winter Boners to the mix and I'm just seinfeld-nope.gif That could have been compelling if not for the male-gazey stuff in the rest of the books and the way Harry himself treats it. It could have been used as something to really hammer home Harry becoming something Other, and this would have paired well with Butters' confrontation of him regarding that. Instead, it's just kind of... gross. And it's never explicitly presented as gross. You'd think realizing that you had a spiritual hitchhiker giving you vile impulses towards your friends would be a huge deal, but... it really isn't. It would have been better if he didn't realize he was doing it, and Murphy or Molly or someone else called him out on it. Having a woman straight up tell him "you are making me uncomfortable what the gently caress is wrong with you" would have been a lot better than Harry whining about his faerie boner, and also would have implied he didn't realize he was doing it. And if he didn't realize that, how else was it affecting him? Then again, Harry's moments of introspection have always been kinda lame and that's probably a fair part of why Ghost Story is very mixed.
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Jul 1, 2019 22:04
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Yeah, again agreed on all counts. I think Butcher is fun and cool and did good work kickstarting the genre and all that good stuff, but he's fundamentally just not a skilled enough writer to pull off nuanced 1st person antihero/nuanced-characterization moments the way that Jacka or Aaronoivch (mostly) can.
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Jul 1, 2019 22:15
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:That could have been compelling if not for the male-gazey stuff in the rest of the books and the way Harry himself treats it. It could have been used as something to really hammer home Harry becoming something Other, and this would have paired well with Butters' confrontation of him regarding that. What's really galling is that Butcher previously handled a similar supernatural erosion of Harry's self-control, and did a much better job. When Lasciel was messing with his head there was a lot of good setup and foreshadowing. We even get a bit where Billy and Georgia sat him down to ask "why you so angry, my dude?" But with the Winter Knight, it seems like Butcher was damned and determined to tie it heavily to sex and he is just... not good at writing anything related to sex. At all. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 12:27 on Jul 2, 2019 |
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Jul 2, 2019 12:21
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:Verus is rather explicitly surrounded by people who are all stronger than him in terms of magical power, whether it stems from brute force ( Morden, Sagash, Caldera, Onyx, Deleo ) or technique ( Landis, Vihaela, Cinder, Anne ). In addition, he's also outmatched politically, and just barely managing to stay one-step ahead of the machinations of organizations whose power he can't stand up to. Is he, though? His power isn’t directly applied, but he manages to win basically every fight because of it. He makes a big point of this, that Diviners win things by spending 5-10 hours of planning for every hour of action they’ll face. Just because the magic isn’t directly applied in a brute way doesn’t mean it’s not true. Aside from that, Verus seems to be the only person in the series who appreciates magic items that aren’t earth shatteringly powerful. For all his talk of being less powerful, about the only thing he lacks is offense. Seriously, in book 9 he has a Dreamstone that lets him instantly silently communicate with his friends across any distance and infiltrate the subconscious of anyone anywhere on Earth, a set of magical armor that protects him from the odd attack he can’t see coming and dodge, a magical taser, and whatever else the plot calls for (strings that disguise him, a dispelling rod he can jam into constructs and deactivate them, a bunch of other stuff). The first scene has him dodging bullets, he regularly takes on multiple opponents (often with at least one being a mage) and wins. If you tried to make him do some DBZ beam struggle, he would lose it obviously. But he’s never forced to do that. He is stupid powerful and well prepared. And like, outmatched politically does not really feel true anymore. In book 9, he’s a member of the Council. Not voting, but that doesn’t seem to affect things, since every vote shown in the book goes the way he wants. He blatantly challenges the Council, bullying his way into the session where they vote about him and manipulating the vote in his favor. He got a pretty solid deal from the Council to talk to Onyx, and then was able to be there during the fight despite half the Council demanding he stay away. His enemies on the Council didn’t even get to blame him for the attack because the rest of them shut them up about it. He’s still dealing with some dangerous people, but they would have obliterated him in book 1, while he now wins almost as much as he loses. The one exception is Richard, because he’s got supervillain plot powers — and potentially more practice as a Diviner than Verus, since that’s a theory.
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Jul 2, 2019 13:15
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Powerwise, he is essentially Wizard Batman, with all the associated caveats.
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Jul 2, 2019 14:26
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:The best Dresden books were the ones where Harry felt like the underdog. He hasn't felt like one in... quite a while. And that's part of why Skin Game kind of sucked, especially compared to Cold Days. Cold Days had enough going on to make Harry feel pressed. Skin Games... eh? I feel the whole Naagloshi scene is there to tell you Harry is the underdog. He gets owned.
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Jul 2, 2019 15:13
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EVGA Longoria posted:Is he, though? Exmond posted:I feel the whole Naagloshi scene is there to tell you Harry is the underdog. He gets owned. Yeah, I think both Butcher and Jacka both realize that the stories work better if the protagonist is the underdog and they both try to work around it to varying degrees. Problem for Butcher is that Dresden's magic is 1) showy and 2) for the most part, learned skills that Harry can't *lose*. The benefit of that is that at the end of every book Dresden gets to blow out all the stops and kick rear end. The downside is that it's harder and harder to believe he got his rear end kicked that easy in the first half of the next book. Jacka on the other hand seems to have learned from Butcher's mistakes and deliberately constructed Verus with more weaknesses. His power isn't showy, and Jacka can always make Verus weaker at need by taking away some of his toys either temporarily ("whoops, I can't believe I went grocery shopping without my dispel focus!") or permanently -- breaking the stone he used to call the elemental, for example, when Elemental Escape started to become a crutch, or burning up the camouflage cloak. When Verus gets his rear end kicked it's because he was caught with his pants down; when Dresden gets his butt kicked it increasingly seems to be just because he hadn't levelled up yet that book. Verus also has an interior monologue that constantly underestimates himself -- explained narratively as "I always see all the futures that go wrong, too" -- so that helps a bit also with "selling" the danger. Butcher is probably the better writer, just in the sense of "can write a cool action sequence with good pacing", and his high notes are higher, but Jacka did a better job setting his series up (in part because he could learn from Butcher's example) so it's got fewer weaknesses. Butcher has higher highs and lower lows. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Jul 2, 2019 |
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Jul 2, 2019 15:22
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EVGA Longoria posted:Is he, though? Here's the thing though: While Alex has accumulated power and is strong in an indirect sense, he's also constantly pressured by people who can match him in a physical fight, or wield more political power. Or both. He's a harp seal barely staying ahead of two grinding glaciers, one light, one dark, only alive because going down into the crevasse and clubbing him to death would be more risk than it was worth. Book 9 starts with a session that would have ended with him being thrown out of the Council if he hadn't heard about it, while being distracted by a potential assassination threat. It is a more elaborate version of the trap in book 8, and it very nearly worked. He doesn't bully the Council so much as he acknowledges that the votes have already been cast, and he has nothing to lose with aggressive honesty. The votes are largely decided and traded for prior to the actual meetings, after all. That meeting was the only place he can play his hole card, and if that hadn't worked, welp. He does dodge bullets in the prior scene, but it's rather explicitly stated it is only because of the lag caused by a supernatural thing acting through the nervous system of someone else. Ordinary guys with guns have been a threat to him throughout the series, and it's only when he's explicitly prepared to take them on and is acting with the initiative that he's confident about it. All the tools that he has ( such as his magical taser ) are things that require some thought and maneuver to use, and many of them can be expended. The armor wouldn't even deflect a straight up rifle round hit and only works against low-power attacks and glancing blows. This allows the fights ( and books ) to be structured in ways that raise the tension by exhausting Alex and his equipment, allows for him to get caught out by not having it, and adds to the feeling of paranoia that pervades his narrative. Of all his allies on and off the Council, the vast majority of them ( outside his cadre of friends ) are allies of convenience. They all want something from him, or are using him to frustrate an opponent. Talisid has been working with him for years and he still only helps Alex when Alex makes it clear that it's the only way Talisid is going to get what he wants- something Alex is painfully aware of. And all that aside Hieronymous Alloy posted:Verus also has an interior monologue that constantly underestimates himself -- explained narratively as "I always see all the futures that go wrong, too" -- so that helps a bit also with "selling" the danger. Basically this. The narrative is one where he believes himself to be in that position, it is his perception as a character, it is his reality. Harry often believes himself to be the long shot, too, but that's a harder sell when you have the level of overt power Harry does. To really ride this DBZ analogy straight down: Harry is Goku. Verus is Gohan. Exmond posted:I feel the whole Naagloshi scene is there to tell you Harry is the underdog. He gets owned. It feels like a step back because of the stakes raised by Cold Days. Nic is dangerous. The other characters are dangerous. But they're like... four guys. And a lot of the threat in that book is the environment they're going to. In Cold Days, the threats are: Demented Gods Things from beyond the plane of reality Mega-plosion Homicidal fae Santa A literal army of armed men The angriest house cat Going from that to Skin Game was just pffffffffff
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Jul 2, 2019 17:09
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:That could have been compelling if not for the male-gazey stuff in the rest of the books and the way Harry himself treats it. It could have been used as something to really hammer home Harry becoming something Other, and this would have paired well with Butters' confrontation of him regarding that. Can't say I wholly agree here. Both with Lash and the Winter Mantle, Harry's been pretty solidly on the "Yeah, that's me" front for the darker temptations he's experiencing. Which I think is a strength, not a weakness. The notion that the external force isn't planting the temptations in his head, just strengthening and exposing temptations that he generally dismisses without even noticing them, ties heavily into the themes of Free Will and responsibility that have been a major theme for most of the series. You can see this in that the only times he's come close to Falling (apart from Changes) are when he started to believe that these were not really his desires.
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Jul 2, 2019 21:05
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Gnoman posted:Can't say I wholly agree here. Both with Lash and the Winter Mantle, Harry's been pretty solidly on the "Yeah, that's me" front for the darker temptations he's experiencing. Which I think is a strength, not a weakness. I agree with this. I think that it's straight up meant to be a weakness and problem of Harry's that he tends to think with his dick. The Winter mantle is stated to amplify primal survival instinct: aggression, lust, and a desire for dominance. Lasciel is a succubus. I do think that Butcher is pretty bad at writing women and romance, and downright terrible at portraying LGBT themes, but I think he basically means well by it.
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Jul 2, 2019 23:44
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I've made the series more tolerable for myself by assuming that Harry is an idiot that's wrong about stuff constantly and assuming he's an unreliable narrator. So him being poo poo about women and LGBT issues is a function of his idiocy and his screwed up perception of the world
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Jul 3, 2019 00:24
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Cythereal posted:I agree with this. I think that it's straight up meant to be a weakness and problem of Harry's that he tends to think with his dick. The Winter mantle is stated to amplify primal survival instinct: aggression, lust, and a desire for dominance. Lasciel is a succubus. Yeah, I don't think Butcher is a downright bigot or anything, just kinda ignorant and careless about this stuff the way most white dudes are. And I do think Harry bring a repressed misogynist is fully deliberate but due to his own bias Butcher just isn't very good at writing it and that dissonance causes friction.
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Jul 3, 2019 00:45
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Harry isn't a misogynist. He is perhaps a male chauvinist, but even that's a stretch because he's perfectly willing to admit when women are equal or better than him. Mostly he's just horny.
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Jul 3, 2019 01:24
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Speaking of, does anyone have a link to Butcher's story about going on a mission trip as a teenager and getting death cursed by the local shaman or whatever?
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Jul 3, 2019 02:24
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Witch Doctor Story - Jim Butcher
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Jul 3, 2019 02:37
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Gnoman posted:Can't say I wholly agree here. Both with Lash and the Winter Mantle, Harry's been pretty solidly on the "Yeah, that's me" front for the darker temptations he's experiencing. Which I think is a strength, not a weakness. Kind of disagree- mostly because the themes of free will and responsibility, nature, etc, are better explored in other characters than they are in Harry. See: the fae, Bob, Murphy, his werewolf friends, and so on. Most of Harry's inner conflict usually goes like Harry: "Am I a bad person?" Jesus allegory carpenter: "Naaaaaaah." Harry: But stars and stones; what if I am? And then it goes away for a while. More often than not, it's apart from the narrative, not a part of the narrative. There's a few good moments, but this isn't really a strength of the series. Harry isn't that complicated of a guy. And that's fine. One of my favorite parts of the whole series was near the climax of Cold Days where he just shouted his name as a confirmation of his identity and his will, and shattered the emo fog spell. It's something that Butcher doesn't seem very good at. It isn't a strength of the series. The climax of Changes was one big exception, but Harry post-Changes seems... more or less the same as Harry pre-Changes. And you'd think there might have been some book 4 or Alex Verus level of fallout after the decision he made, but  . What attitude and personality changes there have been seem to come from the mantle more than anything else and that isn't incredibly compelling soAlmost every really bad or selfish decision Harry makes or has made can be blamed on an external influence and that kind of sucks. Skippy McPants posted:Yeah, I don't think Butcher is a downright bigot or anything, just kinda ignorant and careless about this stuff the way most white dudes are. And I do think Harry bring a repressed misogynist is fully deliberate but due to his own bias Butcher just isn't very good at writing it and that dissonance causes friction. Pretty much. NerdyMcNerdNerd fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Jul 3, 2019 |
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Jul 3, 2019 05:24
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NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:Almost every really bad or selfish decision Harry makes or has made can be blamed on an external influence and that kind of sucks. Totally correct. EDIT: Harry constantly (in the later books) worries about how he's becoming a bad guy and becoming evil, while at the same time all of his even slightly morally ambiguous actions are explained away, either as not being Harry's fault (due to external influence or tampering with his mind), or that there was something that makes it actually OK (no humans died in the mansion fire, for example). And this explanation is always meant to be satisfactory to both the reader and all the main characters. There are better examples of Butcher going out of his way to explain away past events in later novels, but it's been long enough that I can't remember the specifics. I get the impression that Butcher wants Harry to be dark and conflicted, but doesn't actually know how to write that. Even Marcone, the evil villain, has like all his actions sanitized too. So it feels doubly weird for Butcher to now write Harry as a sexual predator, because he's being like well Harry's not bad really, he hasn't done any rapes! There's some weird Mormon poo poo going on here that I do not fully comprehend. This is why there's such a contrast reading Verus, and when he wonders if he's a bad guy (or you wonder it yourself), you can see where he's coming from. This isn't because of great writing--Jacka is super heavy-handed with how he writes these conflicts--but it makes Dresden feel dated and kinda silly. The times in Dresden where someone's like "it's not black or white, it's shades of grey!" are ridiculous, because every conflict in the books is a black or white one. Slanderer fucked around with this message at 06:43 on Jul 3, 2019 |
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Jul 3, 2019 06:23
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Part of what I always took away from the Dresden books was that Harry was 1) An idiot and 2) Kind of mildly autistic. He really struggles to 'get' other people and has no comprehension of how poo poo-scared normal people are of him a lot of the time. How much of this is written as intended and how much is Butcher being well, Butcher it's hard to tell.
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Jul 3, 2019 08:44
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Saros posted:How much of this is written as intended and how much is Butcher being well, Butcher it's hard to tell. The description Murphy gives of Dresden in on of the early Murphy POV stories seems to lean towards the former. She says something like "He's basically an autistic adult until its time to fight monsters, then he turns into a superhero".
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Jul 3, 2019 10:45
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Thanks!
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Jul 3, 2019 11:04
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I'm not exactly sensitive to this kind stuff so I might have missed it but I don't seem to recall any of the things that are brought against Dresden in Codex Alera or Cinder Spires, so I do think it's deliberate character flaws rather than authorial flaws.
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Jul 3, 2019 21:46
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Avalerion posted:I'm not exactly sensitive to this kind stuff so I might have missed it but I don't seem to recall any of the things that are brought against Dresden in Codex Alera or Cinder Spires, so I do think it's deliberate character flaws rather than authorial flaws. There's a little bit of ~~biotruths~~ in Alera in regards to both the Marat and the Canim. Just a bit too much "nature" over "nurture". My overall feeling is that Butcher is just, well, exactly what he appears to be: a nerdy white dude. He means well and, generally, is able to avoid the really bad stuff. But sometimes he wants to touch on a subject that he just doesn't fully grok, and he stumbles, just a bit. I never feel like it's malicious, but that doesn't mean he doesn't put his foot into his (characters') mouth sometimes.
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Jul 3, 2019 22:00
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See: his debate with Titania around Gay men
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Jul 4, 2019 01:36
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tithin posted:See: his debate with Titania around Gay men I try to forget that
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Jul 4, 2019 01:43
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tithin posted:See: his debate with Titania around Gay men Doesn't he basically say people should be free to do whatever it's not his business? Unless you mean just having that conversation at all was weirdly out of place.
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Jul 4, 2019 06:24
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