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Oh, hey, query: If you have an Interface proc, does that work through pets, and if no, man, poor masterminds.
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Jul 1, 2019 17:22
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spectralent posted:I mean, the Villainside content was better at villain launch than most of the hero stuff was. Just, heroes kept getting new, better content, and villains... Did villains ever get anything that wasn't both sides or the "well, we can't leave villains out COMPLETELY" mirror? They did get a couple of unique arcs here and there (like the Luddite arc in Cap) but that was basically about it. Another big problem was the metaplot kept hinging on defeating Bad Guys to Save the World. They desperately tried to disguise the fact that they were ultimately designing everything for heroes, period, by throwing in the occasional naughty thing you could do (stab Tielekku with the God Killer Sword  ) but most of the time they just fell back on the "uhh....well you see...you're saving the world...cuz...you don't want to see those bad guys ruin it/run it before you can" excuse.
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Jul 1, 2019 17:30
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Dareon posted:HVN also has the seismic path, but I may change that to something more visible. Give him the Rainbow Path Aura.
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Jul 1, 2019 17:45
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I mean it makes sense sometimes, the villains fighting the bad guys. Arachnos doesn't want Rikti taking over the world any more than anyone else. The problem though is definitely splitting the player base like that, if you aren't going to support both. It kind of (your mileage may vary) works in say, World of Warcraft because neither faction is explicitly the "good guys" and the "bad guys". You just kind of have the shiny humans and elves type faction and the grungier orcs and monsters faction but they all basically want the same sorts of things and even if they don't like each other, still have a united interest in taking down the big demon/dragon/undead lord of the expansion. It doesn't quite work for superhero games, unless you go out of the way to support them both from the outset.
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Jul 1, 2019 17:56
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Lex Luthor was a huge shitheads villain but was famously protective of Earth from outside aggressors. Until he merged with Brainiac and then oh well.
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Jul 1, 2019 18:07
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When City of Villains came out it was loving amazing. I remember blowing off RA training in college to get in a few more hours of grinding out missions. The bank robbing missions promised that the villain content would be more proactive than the hero content, which made a ton of sense. Villains don't respond to poo poo; they make the poo poo happen. But all that promise never really manifested itself. You ended up with a bland carbon copy of the hero content. Just go to contact, go to mission. You're never stealing poo poo, or threatening the world with zombies or whatever. There's hints of that kind of stuff. I kind of enjoyed the Dr. Graves poo poo and the other missions where you're briefly fighting superheroes in Paragon, but in between those moments there's a whole lot of samey stuff. It really poses the question: "What kind of villain are you?" You're just some kind of schmuck working for lovely people in some slightly shittier zones. Edit: Honestly City of Villains would have made more sense as the Architect system. Make missions, fill them with minions and then be the end boss or something. Spanish Matlock fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Jul 1, 2019 |
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Jul 1, 2019 18:33
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spectralent posted:Oh, hey, query: If you have an Interface proc, does that work through pets, and if no, man, poor masterminds. It does, yeah. I believe the Control and Assault Hybrids work through pets as well. Masterminds initially did get shafted with the incarnate system because of how the level shifts worked, though: in trials, the MM player received the full benefit of the shifts but their pets got rapidly outclassed because their minion/lieutenant pets were still summoned -1 and -2 to them, so they wound up eating poo poo real quick. They eventually baked shifts into their Supremacy inherent so that all their pets start at 50 before level shifts start taking effect.
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Jul 1, 2019 19:10
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Spanish Matlock posted:Edit: Honestly City of Villains would have made more sense as the Architect system. Make missions, fill them with minions and then be the end boss or something. That's how CO worked and it was awful. I wanna play as my bad dudes, not just watch them do a pre-recorded script and set of emotes in nemesis missions.
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Jul 1, 2019 19:18
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Spanish Matlock posted:You're just some kind of schmuck working for lovely people in some slightly shittier zones. Much shittier; villain zones all look so samey and miserable. And "what kind of villain are you" is a good question and relates to a thing I was considering when I was thinking about RP the other day: villains don't really have a common, unifying trend. Heroes all, broadly, want to save the day and stop the bad guys. Batman growls at the baddies and Spider-man will wisecrack, but at the end of the day, whoever's robbing the bank gets punched, and both of them are going to be concerned about a bank robbery. For villains, though? A lot of them are going to be totally uninterested in robbing a bank, because it's too small potatoes, or because they have other interests. If they are interested, some of them aren't going to want to work with other people, and others are their own masterminds. Some of them aren't going to want to rob a bank because they're the good guys, the world just needs to understand why being uploaded into a robot clone is better for them. The "space" a villain's motives occupies is a lot broader than a hero's. And, so, yeah, you end up with the really messy thing that's not consistent about who the character is "meant to be" to a much greater extent. Some of the missions are about some two-bit superpowered punk doing smash and grabs, and some are about evil genius schemes to take over the world, all to fail from hubris at the last minute.
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Jul 1, 2019 19:27
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just be a vigilante so you get to rob ghost widow and fight a cthulhu, its like the coolest tf/sf but then you can go back to populated zones
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Jul 1, 2019 19:44
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CoV makes a lot more sense when you realize the villains are Lord Recluse, Captain Mako, Ghost Widow, Lightning Edgelord, and Hug Scorpion. You are a henchman. An extremely powerful one to be sure, but most of the redside content was written under Jack "Statesman" Emmert's watchful gaze and he had... issues? allowing the players bet the star of the show (he was basically an "oldschool" GMPC-type dungeon master). The VEATs even double down on this by making you start as a trash mob. Most of the non-paper non-tips Villain arcs are about propping up some NPC and the only real question you get to ask is "how disloyal can I be this time?"
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Jul 1, 2019 19:57
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The weirdest part of CoV to me, at least thinking about it now, is the idea that the villains just... have their own island chain? And the majority of their poo poo takes place there instead? Like, "oh yeah, the Joker. He doesn't live in Gotham, doesn't do 99% of his crimes in Gotham, kinda doesn't even care about Gotham. But every now and again he shows up to rob a Gotham bank and punch Batman and then goes back to the Bahamas." It makes absolutely no sense outside of it being easier for a videogame. And even then, that's dubious. How much more mileage could they have gotten out of letting villains share the Paragon zones and using the expansion to just add more? There's some neat poo poo in the Isles' lore and everything, but in retrospect it's a real bizarre choice. Was it all just for PvP? 'cuz man, that's hosed.
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Jul 1, 2019 20:21
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Abroham Lincoln posted:The weirdest part of CoV to me, at least thinking about it now, is the idea that the villains just... have their own island chain? And the majority of their poo poo takes place there instead? Period MMOs were defined by World of Warcraft. Horde and Alliance got their own zones, and when they were allowed to share that zone inevitably devolved into endless pvp, cough hillsbrad foothills cough. The modern solution would just be not let PCs get into stupid pointless brawls on the street, but then you'd have cops getting ganked by villians and so-called super heroes getting to just watch it happen, which isn't exactly the super hero fantasy anyone's signing up for.
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Jul 1, 2019 20:37
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They could have used that newish thing they sometimes do where everyone sees the zones in whatever way best matches their progress. So heroes and villains are both running around Paragon City, but they all see something different. Heroes and villains already don’t interact in their respective zones, so no loss there. But heroes could see themselves cleaning up the streets and new construction going up for new hospitals or whatever. Villains could see themselves robbing and looting, and seeing new bases built up to themselves with their own facilities. Heck, go all in and straight up have everyone interact but one faction sees a cop where the other faction sees an Arachnos operative. Let people flag themselves RP if they want to remove that and figure out something for it. But this would work well from a gameplay perspective.
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Jul 1, 2019 20:57
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HPanda posted:They could have used that newish thing they sometimes do where everyone sees the zones in whatever way best matches their progress. Can you even imagine the level of backlash if CoV came out and the core zones were the same zones but you can't see heroes?
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Jul 1, 2019 21:05
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I ride bikes all day posted:Can you even imagine the level of backlash if CoV came out and the core zones were the same zones but you can't see heroes? Yes. And it would be hilarious and for their own good.
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Jul 1, 2019 21:24
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I ride bikes all day posted:Can you even imagine the level of backlash if CoV came out and the core zones were the same zones but you can't see heroes? The real problem: The fans all wanted something stupid.
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Jul 1, 2019 21:30
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Abroham Lincoln posted:The weirdest part of CoV to me, at least thinking about it now, is the idea that the villains just... have their own island chain? It is kind of hilarious to me how there's just The Country Where Everyone's Evil and this is just a thing people live with. I know it's a comic book, but, there's some WILD assumptions about what being recognised by the UN means in the AMAs.
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Jul 1, 2019 21:34
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Spanish Matlock posted:When City of Villains came out it was loving amazing. I remember blowing off RA training in college to get in a few more hours of grinding out missions. The bank robbing missions promised that the villain content would be more proactive than the hero content, which made a ton of sense. Villains don't respond to poo poo; they make the poo poo happen. When CoV was first announced, the marketing material made it sound like the game would be all about building your secret lair and growing your organisation, while pursuing your evil plots. A lot of people were disappointed when it turned out that the lairs/bases were just guild halls, with no real effect on the game play. I mean, look at this:  This makes it sound like villains were originally supposed to be way more proactive than they ended up being in the final product.
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Jul 1, 2019 21:51
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They wanted to make Warhammer Online SO BAD
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Jul 1, 2019 21:56
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spectralent posted:It is kind of hilarious to me how there's just The Country Where Everyone's Evil and this is just a thing people live with. I know it's a comic book, but, there's some WILD assumptions about what being recognised by the UN means in the AMAs. Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure I'm seeing why is the Rogue Isles being in the UN is much crazier than other Human-Rights-Violation-havers like the PRC or North Korea.
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Jul 1, 2019 22:01
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SimonChris posted:When CoV was first announced, the marketing material made it sound like the game would be all about building your secret lair and growing your organisation, while pursuing your evil plots. A lot of people were disappointed when it turned out that the lairs/bases were just guild halls, with no real effect on the game play. I believe the initial pitch was that you'd join an existing villain organization based on your origin and work up that ladder, so in true Jack Emmert fashion, you were never the star and always the flunkie.  The idea basically was replaced by the one universal Arachnos path when they realized it'd be too much work.I'm guessing similar things happened to the idea of wandering into Paragon City, and everyone already knows how base raids wound up. And now I will always treasure forever: 
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Jul 1, 2019 22:21
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SimonChris posted:When CoV was first announced, the marketing material made it sound like the game would be all about building your secret lair and growing your organisation, while pursuing your evil plots. A lot of people were disappointed when it turned out that the lairs/bases were just guild halls, with no real effect on the game play. I realize we're spoiled in this age of fully free-build luxury gay space supergroup bases, but getting prestige and salvage to tech up your supergroup base and get buffs and a teleport network was... Well, okay, it was a slog and nearly impossible to do alone. Tying content to them was a failed experiment, and the new bases are much better.
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Jul 1, 2019 22:37
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The whole notion of SGs is super good and I wish you could make them multi-leveled. Back in live I spent AGES editing my base since my group was just big enough to earn prestige at a good clip. We had all but the biggest stuff, probably because I kept spending our money of decorative items. I made a rave! It was fun! You don't need a teleporter to Port Oaks, you weirdos!
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Jul 1, 2019 22:48
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You know, this reminds me of something they talked up back in the day that would make a ton of sense for setting COV and COH in the same zones. Secret Identities. There was always some talk about implementing a system dealing with that, and it was going to work into the day jobs system, which instead just became what it is now I guess, sitting outside the monorail or whatever to get a speed buff. You could do an absolute ton with secret identities to make the merger make sense. Make the PVP flag put you in costume. If you're walking the streets in costume, you're fair game for PVP. If you're walking the streets in a suit and tie you're just another civilian.
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Jul 1, 2019 22:53
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Crasical posted:Can you elaborate on this? I'm not sure I'm seeing why is the Rogue Isles being in the UN is much crazier than other Human-Rights-Violation-havers like the PRC or North Korea. Oh, no, more, there's a bit where the devs talk about how Oranbega would emerge underneath Perez, and be given UN protections as a sovereign nation. The Rogue Isles is merely somehow in a state of open war without any explicit superpower backing that's somehow not getting bombed.
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Jul 1, 2019 22:55
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It was weird how the Rogue Isles were simultaneously this oppressive totalitarian state but also a Randian hellhole. Like Recluse is encouraging his citizens to become villains, but that would mean killing his cops and robbing his banks.
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Jul 1, 2019 23:10
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Nehru the Damaja posted:It was weird how the Rogue Isles were simultaneously this oppressive totalitarian state but also a Randian hellhole. Like Recluse is encouraging his citizens to become villains, but that would mean killing his cops and robbing his banks. His whole thing was finding the best lieutenants, so maybe someone rises and could replace Black Scorpion. You want to encourage that kind of behaviour. Plus, all his money was in a pocket dimension or something.
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Jul 1, 2019 23:16
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spectralent posted:The Rogue Isles is merely somehow in a state of open war without any explicit superpower backing that's somehow not getting bombed. I've got to assume that Grandville and it's giant fuckoff helicarriers has something to do with that. Like you shoot a nuke at the rogue aisles and some fuckhole flies up and portals it to the pentagon or whatever.
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Jul 1, 2019 23:21
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Rogue Isle zones have some great music transitions.
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Jul 1, 2019 23:34
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Nehru the Damaja posted:It was weird how the Rogue Isles were simultaneously this oppressive totalitarian state but also a Randian hellhole. Like Recluse is encouraging his citizens to become villains, but that would mean killing his cops and robbing his banks. recluse seems to be more or less detached from the civilian "government" which still serves as a vestigial remnant of the pre-recluse rogue isles. the cops and banks are his in the sense that he lets them exist, but they're ultimately just toys for villains, not anything that serves a real purpose from his perspective. the real question is, who are these people who sign up to be RIPD
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Jul 1, 2019 23:36
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Jazerus posted:the real question is, who are these people who sign up to be RIPD People who've had every illusion of control ripped away by living between the gunfights between spangly PMCs burning people to death with flamethrowers, black-and-red-and-edgy spider facists, and supervillains breaking into their home and eating their toasters. Just gimme a gun, man. I need a gun so I can take my life back.
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Jul 1, 2019 23:45
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Jazerus posted:recluse seems to be more or less detached from the civilian "government" which still serves as a vestigial remnant of the pre-recluse rogue isles. the cops and banks are his in the sense that he lets them exist, but they're ultimately just toys for villains, not anything that serves a real purpose from his perspective. Yeah; the isles all have mostly independent governors and work more like a feudal monarchy. Governors can do whatever they like as long as they're paying their tithes to Arachnos. So, think of it less like "the king is okay with you trashing his provinces" and more like "the king is okay with one of his promising knights loving with a vassal he doesn't care about".
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Jul 1, 2019 23:54
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Jazerus posted:the real question is, who are these people who sign up to be RIPD The RIPD is corrupt as hell so... any normal cop.
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Jul 2, 2019 02:00
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I mean, there seems to be no short supply of thugs willing to staff baby jails in the desert. Some people will eat a mountain of poo poo if it means they get to pick on someone weaker in turn
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Jul 2, 2019 03:46
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my favorite headcanon in games like Batman Arkham Asylum, Yakuza and City of Heroes is that there's just a separate species that look like muscular grown men called Thug and that's how they can populate all these games with enormous amounts of random baddies since that's what they do for a living
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Jul 2, 2019 04:04
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Merilan posted:my favorite headcanon in games like Batman Arkham Asylum, Yakuza and City of Heroes is that there's just a separate species that look like muscular grown men called Thug and that's how they can populate all these games with enormous amounts of random baddies since that's what they do for a living So like a cross between Oglaf's Kronar barbarians and the henchman race from Dragon's Dogma.
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Jul 2, 2019 04:12
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you guys love to talk poo poo about redside but there's goon teams over there regularly. newspapers are fun, bank robberies are better than safeguards, and the contacts are uniformly more interesting than blueside. say what you will about Peter Themari, at least he's got an ethos
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Jul 2, 2019 04:13
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HPanda posted:So like a cross between Oglaf's Kronar barbarians and the henchman race from Dragon's Dogma. omg they can just straight up be Pawns. "Heroes travel in packs, Arisen!" "They love Kinetics!"
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Jul 2, 2019 04:15
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Merilan posted:omg they can just straight up be Pawns. "Heroes travel in packs, Arisen!" "They love Kinetics!" 
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