|
SA Forums Poster posted:What do I do in this situation? "Negotiable" Or, if they push you, "I do not have any particular salary expectation. I will gladly assess any reasonable offer after I have gained a full understanding of the responsibilities and benefits of the position" If they say "I need a number" and simply won't let it drop you can a) test that theory and stonewall with any level of politeness you choose (don't be afraid to repeat yourself) or b) say the highest number you can with a straight face
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2019 13:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 15:54 |
|
|
SA Forums Poster posted:What do I do in this situation? Tell them absolute same thing: “I expect them to be negotiable as it depends on the whole package, salary, bonuses, pto, health insurance, etc”.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2019 13:22
|
|
|
I haven't posted in this thread, but I have read it thoroughly, and just want to say thanks for all the good advice - I got fired in May, and now I have a much better and more interesting job with 70% larger paycheck than what I was earning and all-around better benefits. I did have to tell them the number, so I went with high-ish market value for the position and that's what they offered me after the interviews.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2019 13:42
|
|
|
Any tips for negotiating with friends? Worked with this guy in the early 2000s, left for a different technical position. We've stayed in touch, got closer since I left. He's looking to create a new position; we've been talking for a while now. He runs a tight ship, good (but small), healthy company. Better benefits than current gig. The technical work will be less interesting. He's probably the best business manager I've ever worked with. We've teamed on projects and subbed each other out in the past and I know how much he enjoys negotiating, and he knows how much I hate it. We've been dancing around comp. I've been deflecting. But time to poo poo or get off the pot; he wants me to fly down and hash it out. I work for a larger company with more industry contacts and I probably know the market for peers better than he does. He'll ask for my # first, but I've no problem telling him "You called me. Cards down first." Beyond that, I'm not sure how he'll play it. Just put up a wall and pretend it is any other interview would be ideal, but 50-50 he'll go the "I've got an MBA from a top 10 school and watch me use it" or "Come on, you are practically family." The first one I can just lean into, the second one I'd be disappointed. Anyone with similar situations they can use to provide advice?
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2019 02:10
|
|
|
SA Forums Poster posted:What do I do in this situation?
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2019 04:46
|
|
|
pumped up for school posted:Any tips for negotiating with friends? Worked with this guy in the early 2000s, left for a different technical position. We've stayed in touch, got closer since I left. He's looking to create a new position; we've been talking for a while now. He runs a tight ship, good (but small), healthy company. Better benefits than current gig. The technical work will be less interesting. Be a straight shooter. Ask how much he's budgeted for the position and discuss it like adults. If he forces the issue give him your pie-in-the-sky. If he answers but it's too low tell him your top number and hopefully you can meet at something agreeable. It's okay to say no if he can't give you what you want.
|
|
#
?
Jun 29, 2019 16:34
|
|
|
So I've been asked by the CEO at my company to basically name my next raise. For context I've been working at a startup for the last 4 years and my raises after the initial startup hell 9 months have been so far averaging ~8.5% per year from an already upper end of the spectrum of my degree and job title. I was employee 2 here, and my equity is all grants, no options bullshit so that's pretty simple as far as it goes, and my vesting period ends this fall. This also comes with a promotion as our team is up to a size that we need more managers and I'll be officially taking on a lot of responsibilities I've been mostly handling already, but sort of under the table without any real authority besides "I've been here a long time, I'm handling this, I know what I'm doing". Turns out that was really appreciated through the growing pains. All in all it seems like a pretty good opportunity, but I'm worried that the 'name your price' thing is a way to get me to sorely undervalue myself. I'm pretty good friends with most of the people at the company, so I'm planning on asking what the other management layer makes and what their equity packages look like and I'm also gonna try to get actual numbers on equity and dilution since that was all negotiated 4 years ago. The CEO hinted he wants me to ask for more equity than salary, but it's still risky as hell even though we have recurring revenue and I think we're probably better than a cointoss at this point as to IPOing at a good value vs failing. The failure mode I expect even if we do fail is taking a buyout offer that would net me a few months salary as a lump sum and I could move on easily enough. Is there anything else I should do to get info before talking to him again? He set a tentative meeting for ~3 weeks from now to discuss it again. Benefits are not really a good negotiation point, we have an amazing healthcare plan, but no retirement matching (but my wife has one and we're maxing out that) and 'unlimited' vacation which I've been averaging 20-30 days a year off since I started so I'm pretty happy with them in general.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2019 02:49
|
|
|
L0cke17 posted:..... I've been working at a startup ..... my equity is all grants, no options bullshit I'd like to drill down on this. Why do you think options are "bullshit"? There is a very serious tax disadvantage to RSU grants in an illiquid company (i.e. startup). (FYI, I'm assuming RSUs. Options that are given are also grants, so I don't think you quite have the terminology down)
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2019 03:39
|
|
|
L0cke17 posted:All in all it seems like a pretty good opportunity, but I'm worried that the 'name your price' thing is a way to get me to sorely undervalue myself. Yeah he wants you to undervalue yourself. Cash is king. Don't talk yourself into some future promises that may be worth exactly nothing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2019 03:55
|
|
|
e: snipped for way off topic
L0cke17 fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Jul 2, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2019 04:05
|
|
|
L0cke17 posted:According to the paperwork I signed when I started I was granted common stock full stop. What was your tax burden? This is typically the problem. Also, there was no vesting period? You have all of this equity vested right now/as of signing? That's kinda of a red flag to me as to management experience/quality.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2019 04:51
|
|
|
Motronic posted:What was your tax burden? He said the vesting period ends this fall which is somewhere around 4-5 years.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2019 04:54
|
|
|
Motronic posted:What was your tax burden? e: snipped for way off topic L0cke17 fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Jul 2, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2019 05:03
|
|
|
spwrozek posted:He said the vesting period ends this fall which is somewhere around 4-5 years. Sorry, I missed that. So then the real question is how much real money has he put into this illiquid equity? The whole "I can totally sell it with first right of refusal...." thing is what everyone says before they know how this poo poo works. I get that's what is says in your equity agreement, but you have almost no way to sell any of this ever in any reasonable scenario that doesn't look like a near term liquidity event. I guess what I'm getting to is that this kind of equity is a lottery ticket. You shouldn't be paying for it (in tax burden when you cant' reasonable sell to cover at least). I'm saying this as someone who has won this lottery. And that doesn't make me change a thing about my position on it. Motronic fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Jul 2, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2019 05:03
|
|
|
Motronic posted:Sorry, I missed that. e: This is actually way off topic for this thread, I sent you a PM, but I don't really want to clutter this up. The advice I really need right now is negotiating tips for the raise. L0cke17 fucked around with this message at 05:15 on Jul 2, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2019 05:09
|
|
|
Sorry, continue on. But the questions about the raise have everything to do about what you current comp is, and it doesn't seem like you have a handle on that. It also seems like because of that you may be mis-valuing things you consider a raise. I'll leave this to others to give you advice.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2019 05:21
|
|
|
Motronic posted:Sorry, continue on. But the questions about the raise have everything to do about what you current comp is, and it doesn't seem like you have a handle on that. It also seems like because of that you may be mis-valuing things you consider a raise. Please check your PMs. I do want to hear your advice, but I just don't feel comfortable putting a bunch of the contractual details in the thread. Maybe I'm over-reacting, but I didn't expect to be sharing so many details about it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 2, 2019 05:28
|
|
|
L0cke17 posted:e: This is actually way off topic for this thread, I sent you a PM, but I don't really want to clutter this up. The advice I really need right now is negotiating tips for the raise. I mean the first thing about this is doing some research and understanding your value. What is your title/role? How many reports will you have? Do you manage budgets? Generally you want cash over lotto tickets, though it is largely situation dependent. You really want both. Do you know how many total shares there are outstanding (so you can understand % of ownership)? Presumably, if you were employee 2 you own a few % already. Also now that the company has more value, the tax implications of additional equity will be larger if it's a grant (or less margin if it's options)
|
|
#
?
Jul 14, 2019 13:42
|
|
|
Someone on my team just did her midyear review and got a less than quarter of the raise she got last year, and when trying to negotiate was told that it was really high for this year and words to the effect of "you shouldn't be motivated by money." Last year our manager acknowledged we were severely underpaid and that he would work with us to keep us around (after several people rapidly quit). Maybe he feels the one decent raise last year was enough. I've been interviewing to test the waters but no offers yet, though the pay jump seems pretty huge no matter where I look. I'm definitely leaving soon-ish, but would like to make a little more while I wait and take my time finding a good fit. As part of my role I have access to a lot of our financial data and can see that we're doing very well both as a department and as a company, and I know that there are no restrictions on raises, though there is a bonus for managers for keeping their team budgets low (salaries included). Because the data I have access to is confidential I can't reference it in negotiations. I'm trying to think of a way to explain in my review that salary is actually a valid factor (still) and I know he has budget for it, in a way that might actually get a response.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2019 06:29
|
|
|
Don't feed the complacent part your brain with weak rationalizations like "I played hardball and got a good raise this year, I'm set." Put your efforts into interviewing. I promise that nearly anything will be a better "fit" than the grossly underpaid work you're doing now, and if it sucks, you can leave in a year with a new base salary in hand interview with. I mean if you have leverage, play it. By "confidential", do you mean "it's bad form to share it internally" or "I'll be indicted if I hint at it internally"? I'd be pretty tempted to use it anyway, just to see what happens, but it's not my life/job I'm gambling with and I understand if you don't want to. Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Jul 17, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2019 06:34
|
|
|
You could also keeo it generic saying that you know the department and company are doing great and that should be reflected in salary as it’s because of how well you and your coworkers do your jobs.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2019 09:24
|
|
|
I mean... just say what you know? It's confidential, but it's not like you're talking to someone out of the company. Your boss would have the same info, yeah?
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2019 14:18
|
|
|
Ghostnuke posted:I mean... just say what you know? It's confidential, but it's not like you're talking to someone out of the company. Your boss would have the same info, yeah?
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2019 14:45
|
|
|
I'm not really sure if this belongs in this thread, but it's funny either way: Yesterday a recruiter contacted me about a technical writing position with a major bank in downtown Pittsburgh. When I asked him to send me the job description, he literally just sent me this: quote:Job Title: Technical Writer Just a list of two skills with absolutely no job description. We had a phonecall (because I was just curious about what the hell this was) and he said that it was a senior position, requiring 10+ years of experience and verbally gave me like... no more description than was there. Definitely didn't want this, so I just said gently caress it and outright asked him for a ballpark figure of what they were looking to pay (again, with no intention of going any further) and he told me 40-50k. I currently have 7 years of experience and make 80k with a 10% yearly bonus (that actually is paid out each year). I laughed at him and just said "that's half of what I make now" and told him I'd consider it for 120k knowing he won't ever call me back. Recruiters are the worst.
|
|
#
?
Jul 17, 2019 17:25
|
|
|
I’ve read through a lot of this thread but it’s giant, so forgive me if this is a question that comes up commonly. What are my negotiating options or strategies for a position where the salary range and some of the benefits were posted on the website listing? I’d assume that applying for the job at all means they’d consider it tacit acceptance of their posted salary range. Posted salary range is 60 to 75k depending on experience. I have eight years experience in the field and performing the duties of said job, but it’s a managerial position and I have technically never held a managerial title even if I’ve been sole charge in this position and been the seniormost person on a team. (My job history has a lot of small businesses where there just weren’t managerial roles.) I plan on asking for the uppermost salary because gently caress it, eight years. The ad also promised paid relocation and a 7k/year development and travel budget. Is there anything more I should or could do? I’ve just had a very positive second interview. I know don’t count your chickens etc. but better to be prepared if I do get an offer than to assume I won’t. Side note: APPLY FOR JOBS YOU THINK YOU AREN’T QUALIFIED FOR! I was iffy on applying for this one because it’s a managerial role and I’ve been out of the industry for a couple years. Even if I don’t get an offer, I made it to the final four, beating out at least one applicant I personally know who’s a very qualified lady. If you think you can do the job, apply for the fuckin job.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 05:02
|
|
|
Echoing the point about applying for whatever. Many senior jobs do not need specific technical skills as much as they need qualities such as emotional maturity, courage, integrity and good judgement. With that in mind I’d like to talk a bit about what a person can do to be considered for very senior executive roles, because I was moved into one this year, reporting direct to the CFO of a very large tech company, and it’s given me a new perspective on a lot of this. My main job is to plan out and negotiate our commercial contracts with other gigantic companies. It’s pretty fun. 1. Network! Network network network. The most leverage you can possibly have for a compensation negotiation with someone is that they (or their boss) want you, specifically, for the role. I got recommended for my current role by someone who was a client 10 years ago when I was an attorney, who formed a good impression of me at the time. A few years later I took a couple days after a business trip to go over to his city to say hi to him and grab dinner. It only took 2-3 interactions over about 10 years to keep the link there, and then when he was VP at this company and heard the CFO was hiring, I got a call. This is also an argument for not half-assing even junior or miserable jobs if there’s anyone around who might remember you being good later on. 2. **Once you can afford to**, prioritise doing interesting work that builds your CV over incremental pay. I took one major pay cut to get out of law and into corporatedom and later swapped out some base for commission to take a risky sales role so that I had some sales experience. That mix was what made the guy from point 1 think of me for the role. I think there’s a tendency in particular for younger people to prefer to specialise more, but having cross-functional skills, particularly unusual ones, is actually quite rare and saleable. 3. For negotiating my package, I did the following: (1) figure out my “bullshit high” number and my actual bottom line in advance; (2) be aware of my BATNA (continue in a job I didn’t much like but where I was paid adequately and was doing new things); (3) come up with a justification for the bullshit high figure. The one I used was something like “if I stayed in professional services I’d be earning X, it’s all lockstep and publicly known”, but I believe the actual justification is irrelevant, only that you have one. They then countered with a number that was south of my bullshit high number but way north of my actual bottom line and I said yes on the spot. Hello >50% pay raise (sth like 200% if you include the options package). At this point I’m ahead of where I would have been if I had soldiered on as a lawyer and made partner. 4. Ignore titles and focus on substance. I asked for a director level title and HR offered something like senior manager. When I found out I would be reporting to the C-suite directly and the actual job sounded cool and interesting I just asked them to give me the title I wanted as an external one; I was later given a ten-person team and asked to prepare an org chart stating what extra resources I would need. I think I’m still on the system as a senior manager. Since it doesn’t seem to affect my actual pay or standing (that comes from substantive things, IE the CFO’s public confidence in me and my reputation with the VPs), I don’t feel this was all that important. 5. Practice chill and be willing to take calculated risks. The onboarding process took ages and the contract I was given was terribly drafted. I signed it anyway and have done very well out of it. In similar circumstances, years ago, I agreed to be brought in as a consultant with no employment security for the first few months, as the company had a hiring freeze. In both cases the company could have screwed me; in both cases I judged it wasn’t worth their while to and focused on what they would actually care about, and with the actual hiring managers I benefited a bit from the halo effect due to making their lives that bit easier. Use your judgment for this but in my view the more senior you get, the more you benefit from demonstrating calm and good judgment; minimising friction during negotiations (note this is not the same as not asking for things) and cautiously extending trust is part of this. Except for HR and I suppose small business owners, I’ve met very few people who don’t naturally want to reward good performers well. The trick is understanding what they think constitutes good performance.
|
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 07:29
|
|
|
I'm glad it worked out for you, but I think it's an extremely bad idea to sign a contract based on an assumption of what the other party is thinking. First, because you can never absolutely know what another person (much less an organization) is thinking, but second and more dangerously, because the people comprising the other party could change next month, and then all you have to protect you is the actual language of the contract. Other than that, that is a good post. Points 2-5 are just ways to enhance your value around the edges, though. Networking is 90% of success. It really, really is. e: OK, one other nitpick: I've known numerous people who don't want to reward good performers--at least, not financially--and will let a good performer walk rather than pay them what they're worth, excoriating them for disloyalty the whole way. Needless to say, under no circumstances do you want to work for such a person, or for a company that is controlled by such people. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 12:45 on Jul 21, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 12:42
|
|
|
As I said, it’s a risk, and not one to be taken without very careful consideration. My point is really that sometimes it is worth taking those risks, so long as you know what you are doing. Not suggesting that people just “YOLO!!!” rush into cowboy contracts. E: Also I’ve worked for the kind of person you are talking about and they absolutely suck. In my last (sales) job I insisted on getting everything in writing because I didn’t trust the woman I was working for any further than I could throw her. That doesn’t change my personal experience that people like her are less common than ok people. Beefeater1980 fucked around with this message at 13:51 on Jul 21, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 21, 2019 13:47
|
|
|
So I think I'm in a position where I think I have to know when I've won and just accept without negotiating. This is for a literal dream job. Current comp - Chicago Current base salary 15% bonus target Extremely good time off I can actually use ( > 6 weeks) 7% 401k contribution Standard health options Offer comp - NYC 1.6x current base salary 15% bonus target (theoretically higher depending on performance) 95k equity (4 year vest) 10k relocation bonus (+ one month corporate housing to look for apt once I've moved) 4 weeks PTO but unlimited sick time ~3.5% 401k contribution All medical/dental/vision paid for by company Tons of other ancillary benefits that I'll actually use I'm not even sure what I could negotiate here. This is the job I wanted in a city I really enjoy with much higher comp and WAY better benefits. Also the recruiter made very sure to emphasize that base isn't really negotiable because it's based on level and they're extremely focused on parity/pay equity. Is there anything I'm not thinking about?
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2019 01:21
|
|
|
Chaotic Flame posted:So I think I'm in a position where I think I have to know when I've won and just accept without negotiating. This is for a literal dream job.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2019 01:28
|
|
|
Dik Hz posted:Recruiters say that poo poo all the time to try to close deals. Don't trust them. Worst case scenario is "No". Best case scenario is that they pull the offer, telling you exactly what kind of assholes they are. Caveat: If the offer is well above market rate, you'll look out-of-touch counter-offering. How does this offer compare to the market rate in NYC? It is an internal recruiter to be fair and I do know they actually do a lot of pay equity work (this is part of my field) but I agree. But, the offer is probably a good notch above market rate for the area based on what I know. Also, I do have another offer on the table, and they were aware of that. e: changed how much above market it is and more details Chaotic Flame fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Jul 23, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2019 01:35
|
|
|
The one thing that leaps out to me, if you really want to push the point, is to ask for 6 weeks PTO up from the 4 to match your current role? That’s the one thing that is a regression, so it’s the easiest to push I guess. It’s also much less tangible than $$. Idk though, like you said, assuming it’s market rate I’d struggle to labour the point.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2019 03:22
|
|
|
Chaotic Flame posted:I'm not even sure what I could negotiate here. This is the job I wanted in a city I really enjoy with much higher comp and WAY better benefits. Also the recruiter made very sure to emphasize that base isn't really negotiable because it's based on level and they're extremely focused on parity/pay equity. They won't retract the offer if you say "I'll sign immediately if you can bring that to $(x + 4%)" or whatever, and odds are good they'll give you a token bump (which is sitll a meaningful amount of additional money for you) just to get it over with. Why leave that on the table?
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2019 04:14
|
|
|
If you can't ask for salary then ask for equity.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2019 04:19
|
|
|
Or a (larger) signing bonus. Or give an ask for all of the above and let them pick!
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2019 04:25
|
|
|
"That's a very interesting package. If we can get the total compensation number to X, I'll be able to sign immediately. I'm open to seeing that reflected in base salary, equity, or the expected bonus target." Or some variation of that. There is no harm in asking. It's not about the market rate - it's about what they're willing to pay you.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2019 08:28
|
|
|
Chaotic Flame posted:So I think I'm in a position where I think I have to know when I've won and just accept without negotiating. This is for a literal dream job.... If it's your dream job, go for it, but just know it's not much of a raise- I just looked at a cost of living calculator and NYC is about 1.5x the cost of Chicago, so your raise might not feel like much, but if you're happy now, you should still be happy then. Still negotiate either way.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2019 14:54
|
|
|
m0therfux0r posted:If it's your dream job, go for it, but just know it's not much of a raise- I just looked at a cost of living calculator and NYC is about 1.5x the cost of Chicago, so your raise might not feel like much, but if you're happy now, you should still be happy then.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2019 15:15
|
|
|
Thanks all for the wake up call. Definitely going to negotiate and frame how a few people put it (I'm ready to sign if we can get to X...), with justification around loss of 401k contributions if asked.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2019 15:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 15:54 |
|
|
Chaotic Flame posted:So I think I'm in a position where I think I have to know when I've won and just accept without negotiating. This is for a literal dream job. Is the offer roughly at market? Is 1.6x your current base salary enough to live comfortably in New York? Is it a public company where you can freely sell equity as you vest? In any case, you might consider framing any negotiation around missing out on a low CoL, missing out on your 7% match, and missing out on six weeks of vacation, which are all valuable perks that one might expect to be compensated for. That said, if it's truly your dream job and the compensation offered is at market or better, don't feel compelled to apply a bunch of pressure to squeeze out a few more bucks. A good deal is a good deal, whether you "earned" it or not.
|
|
#
?
Jul 23, 2019 20:04
|
|
