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Dark_Swordmaster posted:Wait, why do European history games that aren't about Hitler or the Norse filled with racists? Nazis are big fans of mythologizing their glorious teutonic chivalrous crusading past.
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Jul 2, 2019 22:13
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:Community management for the videogames industry is still a relatively new and unstable science that I think a lot of people are deciding just isn't worth investing too much into when you consider that gamers are just the worst people on earth as a whole, so why bother? I'd say this thing with Mordhau answers that question. Bother about it, because gamers can always become even worse people when left to their own devices.
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Jul 2, 2019 22:30
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CrazyLoon posted:I'd say this thing with Mordhau answers that question. Bother about it, because gamers can always become even worse people when left to their own devices. bother about it, but who can afford it? i sure as hell can't afford to pay a persistent community manager and i can't be bothered to manage one myself, i'm busy with my own poo poo. you can't say "oh just bother about it!" because that poo poo is a major expense and not everyone, least of all tiny devs, can shoulder it. people aren't made of money, but you need it to hire people to these positions.
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Jul 2, 2019 22:32
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Should the Prison Architect thread be resurrected? It has a new developer and just a couple of days ago got a major update with new content and fixes to its UI?
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Jul 2, 2019 22:33
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The White Dragon posted:bother about it, but who can afford it? i sure as hell can't afford to pay a persistent community manager and i can't be bothered to manage one myself, i'm busy with my own poo poo. you can't say "oh just bother about it!" because that poo poo is a major expense and not everyone, least of all tiny devs, can shoulder it. people aren't made of money, but you need it to hire people to these positions. Then your fanbase will be full of racists and you will be known as the company that makes games for racists. If you're ok with that, cool, rock on!
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Jul 2, 2019 22:35
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Then your fanbase will be full of racists and you will be known as the company that makes games for racists. If you're ok with that, cool, rock on! kind of cold to condemn any small time dev who operates on a shoestring budget to this status but ok
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Jul 2, 2019 22:37
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The White Dragon posted:kind of cold to condemn any small time dev who operates on a shoestring budget to this status but ok I'm not "condemning" them, it's the reality of what happens. All I'm saying is, if you don't spend resources on policing your community, you are telling everyone you are ok with racists. I'm not even saying they'll make less or more money doing that, I have no idea about that.
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Jul 2, 2019 22:42
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You don't need to hire a full time moderator team to have your company spokesperson actually state that you do not approve of the racism being spewed by your playerbase.
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Jul 2, 2019 22:43
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you're saying if you can't afford to spend money on policing your community then you can suck rocks if an undesirable audience is attracted to your game. it may be the reality but to a poor rear end dev like me that sounds a hell of a lot like "well maybe you shouldn't make games if you don't have money"
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Jul 2, 2019 22:44
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The White Dragon posted:you're saying if you can't afford to spend money on policing your community then you can suck rocks if an undesirable audience is attracted to your game. it may be the reality but to a poor rear end dev like me that sounds a hell of a lot like "well maybe you shouldn't make games if you don't have money" \/\/ This \/\/ Schubalts posted:You don't need to hire a full time moderator team to have your company spokesperson actually state that you do not approve of the racism being spewed by your playerbase. I really don't see how much work it would have been to acknowledge and reject this poo poo early on. I mean, it's not like their forums DON'T have moderators already. And, let's assume it DOES cost a lot of money. Well, guess what, that's the reality of business. Monetary success and an increase in the size of your business means a lot more responsibilities than you might have originally bargained for. Taxes, employment laws, administrative costs, and, yes, public relations. Mordhau is NOT made by a "poor-rear end dev" anymore. The game is a breakout success and now they actually have to start acting like a real company.
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Jul 2, 2019 22:58
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Yeah, it costs exactly zero cents to say, "We disapprove of all racism in our community and act upon it in our capacity to do so." Even if you never ban a player you didn't just stamp a giant OK on racism. They literally failed the barest minimum effort in denouncing racism.
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Jul 2, 2019 23:08
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Dark_Swordmaster posted:Yeah, it costs exactly zero cents to say, "We disapprove of all racism in our community and act upon it in our capacity to do so." Honestly, is just saying "hey racism isn't okay" enough if you aren't actively moderating? Because I can totally see people also saying "they're just saying that to cover their assess, they don't actually ban people for racism so they're complicit in promoting racism, just look at the Steam forums if you want to REALLY know how they feel about it."
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Jul 2, 2019 23:30
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It would still be universes better than acting like racists/misogynists/homophobes are worth appeasing or actively defending a forum thread titled "Post your kniggas"quote:As an example, one of the forum’s most popular threads is titled ‘Post your kniggas,’ in which players share images of their character builds. The thread started in 2017 when Mordhau was in alpha, and has attracted more than 2,600 comments since. One of those comments says "step up my kniggas," another says "listen here, human being." When one player questions the racism in the thread’s title, another responds: "you are gay."
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Jul 2, 2019 23:33
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Yeah it's not even so much a lack of community management, plenty of indie devs have 0 community management and avoid having that kind of poo poo in their fan bases by making some p minor choices throughout development and then small corrections post launch. By not having anyone other than white dudes as playable characters, then by doing stuff like saying "We'll make women togglable cause we don't want to upset anyone" or "we don't see anything racist with our biggest most active thread having a racial slur in the title" they're, knowingly or not, actively pandering to that crowd.
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Jul 2, 2019 23:51
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Some people are so terrified of losing even a single customer or subscriber or even click that they refuse to take a stand on anything. Including non-white and male characters but letting you toggle them off seems like that, but defending the racist thread is making me wonder.
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Jul 2, 2019 23:56
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Nemesis Of Moles posted:Yeah it's not even so much a lack of community management, plenty of indie devs have 0 community management and avoid having that kind of poo poo in their fan bases by making some p minor choices throughout development and then small corrections post launch. By not having anyone other than white dudes as playable characters, then by doing stuff like saying "We'll make women togglable cause we don't want to upset anyone" or "we don't see anything racist with our biggest most active thread having a racial slur in the title" they're, knowingly or not, actively pandering to that crowd. At this point I don't think it's arguable whether or not they're pandering to the crowd - they decision for "anything goes" seems to have been pretty clear. This is a problem they don't want to fix. But, people have been talking more about how other small companies would deal with this sort of situation, like devs with shoestring budgets. So, my question is, if a different dev team was suddenly handed this game and told to fix its reputation, would anything short of massive community moderation be able to fix it? Because yeah saying "hey racism is bad" is better than actively permitting it like Treyarch are doing, but I genuinely don't think it would be enough for anyone to go up to bat for them. BattleMaster posted:Some people are so terrified of losing even a single customer or subscriber or even click that they refuse to take a stand on anything. Including non-white and male characters but letting you toggle them off seems like that, but defending the racist thread is making me wonder. I think if the dev team just came right out and said "hey listen that core community is the one who paid our bills when we didn't know if the game was going to make it or not, so we don't want to shut down their fun now that we've got our paychecks" I'd understand that on some level, but yeah no these guys are trying to put up a smokescreen around the truth which is they think the poo poo like the Steam thread is actually funny and good RazzleDazzleHour fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Jul 3, 2019 |
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Jul 3, 2019 00:00
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:At this point I don't think it's arguable whether or not they're pandering to the crowd - they decision for "anything goes" seems to have been pretty clear. This is a problem they don't want to fix. But, people have been talking more about how other small companies would deal with this sort of situation, like devs with shoestring budgets. So, my question is, if a different dev team was suddenly handed this game and told to fix its reputation, would anything short of massive community moderation be able to fix it? Because yeah saying "hey racism is bad" is better than actively permitting it like Treyarch are doing, but I genuinely don't think it would be enough for anyone to go up to bat for them. Oh in that case no, I think the damage is largely done and you'd need to work pretty hard to fix it if other similar communities are anything to go by. You gotta start much earlier in the process I think. edit: like, the main issue besides a willingness to do it is that, even besides the cost of a community manager, if the community is already largely made up of lovely People, they're the ones paying for the game and they're gonna be loud and angry when you make changes and you're gonna lose a bunch of them and there's really no guarantee the influx of not-racists you attract is gonna make up for it. Nemesis Of Moles fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Jul 3, 2019 |
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Jul 3, 2019 00:04
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Nemesis Of Moles posted:Oh in that case no, I think the damage is largely done and you'd need to work pretty hard to fix it if other similar communities are anything to go by. You gotta start much earlier in the process I think. Yeah, I think so too. Like I said, if I were making a game with a small team I'd probably make the exact same mistake. But, that's what I mean in that it can be hard for smaller teams to prevent this sort of thing from happening and once they finally do have the financial means to deal with it it's usually too late. I would say Mordhau is a precautionary tale about not managing your community, but now that they're just sort of out there saying the community is fine that's a much more difficult sell Nemesis Of Moles posted:edit: like, the main issue besides a willingness to do it is that, even besides the cost of a community manager, if the community is already largely made up of lovely People, they're the ones paying for the game and they're gonna be loud and angry when you make changes and you're gonna lose a bunch of them and there's really no guarantee the influx of not-racists you attract is gonna make up for it. Yeah sadly this is also probably true. I almost guarantee it would actually be worse for the game's playerbase if they decided to clean things up RazzleDazzleHour fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Jul 3, 2019 |
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Jul 3, 2019 00:11
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its not hard to find people willing to moderate forums for free
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Jul 3, 2019 00:17
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lets hang out posted:its not hard to find people willing to moderate forums for free Seriously? You're suggesting getting a rando to moderate an entire game community for free on a forum where "mods knew" is a meme?
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Jul 3, 2019 00:28
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Not a meme
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Jul 3, 2019 00:34
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Memes are not just for creating the future with magic but can also come from realities of the past
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Jul 3, 2019 00:37
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CrazyLoon posted:*sigh* I am not debating this poo poo here, suffice it to say - I agree that people traveled and individuals of color were present, but moreso what I meant was that it was most certainly not out of the realm of possibility that in that very specific historical area Kingdom Come was set in, it was certainly not outside the realm of possibility for one to encounter all whites there in that very short timespan the game takes place in. It also could have simply been a budget issue and they would've got a lot less flak had they said so. Honestly, the big historical accuracy issue Kingdom Come has is that it's set only a year or two before an enormous revolution in Bohemia yet the game portrays almost literally everyone as happy serfs and nobles with not an inkling of rising tensions.
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Jul 3, 2019 00:48
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Mokinokaro posted:It also could have simply been a budget issue and they would've got a lot less flak had they said so. Isn't its creator also a gamergater? It also has this amazing perk: quote:Manly Odour
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Jul 3, 2019 00:56
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ponzicar posted:Isn't its creator also a gamergater? Looked at Deliverance: KC's creator's twitter page, and he was retweeting someone arguing against forgiving student debt, so... Yes.
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Jul 3, 2019 01:44
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Budget or no, a statement saying, "We condemn the racists within our player base," is not only free but literally better than halfway saying, "Well they kind of live here now." It's not your usual case of silence equating to support, it's just literally support.
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Jul 3, 2019 02:01
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The White Dragon posted:you're saying if you can't afford to spend money on policing your community then you can suck rocks if an undesirable audience is attracted to your game. it may be the reality but to a poor rear end dev like me that sounds a hell of a lot like "well maybe you shouldn't make games if you don't have money" No-one is saying that. What people are saying is, if you don't put some effort toward removing the bad elements of your community, they will not be removed, and they will drive off good elements. This is an inherent trend in communities and always has been; the only difference is that now there a larger number who are way more eager to find spaces where they can be openly, spitefully harmful. As the creator of the game, you have greater authority and power than anyone else to put in this effort, both directly and through the deputies you choose. If you repeatedly do not put in that effort, you will gain a reputation for not putting in that effort, and people who might support you may decide not to do so due to that reputation, while more hateful people will see your spaces as safer for them to do incrementally more and more horrible things; the boundaries will be pushed until there is push-back, either from you or from the platform itself. If someone particularly influential has a particularly bad time in your community, you can expect them to raise a stink about it, and for that stink to take a long time and a lot of effort to go away. None of this is a judgment about you as a person or your beliefs; this is just how online communities function. It is a lot of work, and unfortunately it is a reality of existing in the spaces that Steam and Reddit and Twitter and the rest of the internet have all created.
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Jul 3, 2019 03:35
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Somfin posted:No-one is saying that. Well, to be fair Rotten Red Rod posted:That's why the best option seems to just not make games in that setting anymore. Which is an insane thing to say
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Jul 3, 2019 04:02
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Speaking to the point above, the group I play games with plays Mordhau almost daily. I had every intention of buying it in the next month or so. I now have no desire to because of the racist playerbase (even if they're a vocal minority which is more than likely the case, they're vocal enough to get articles written about them) and, more importantly, the devs basically stamping their seal of approval on the whole thing. It's unlikely, no matter how good the game is or how often my buddies play, that I will be giving them money. If they had literally done the bare minimum of condemning the behavior it wouldn't have affected my plans but their support, even if it's only implicit, is enough to turn me away. If I was going to try and avoid racist players on the internet I should stick to singleplayer games and never venture into the comments sections. I understand how literally impossible it is to do, so that's not the dealbreaker. The dealbreaker is the developers' stance on the matter.
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Jul 3, 2019 04:22
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It's really unfortunate that so many gaming companies don't seem to understand that there's more to market research than just reading Reddit threads.
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Jul 3, 2019 04:40
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:Well, to be fair I should have clarified, I meant "...not make games in that setting anymore if you want to avoid dealing with racist fans." I'm not actually suggesting there be settings that are entirely off-limits. Just, if you're going to choose that one... Be prepared. Rotten Red Rod fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Jul 3, 2019 |
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Jul 3, 2019 05:02
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:Well, to be fair The part I was responding to was "don't make games if you're poor" which no-one was saying.
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Jul 3, 2019 10:07
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Looked at Deliverance: KC's creator's twitter page, and he was retweeting someone arguing against forgiving student debt, so... Yes.  They got the like, clothes and food way, way wrong too. And I believe a lot of the weapons aren't handled remotely like they actually were historically, with people swinging them in entirely the wrong way. And got the political situation way wrong. They didn't actually care about realism.
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Jul 3, 2019 11:57
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Somfin posted:The part I was responding to was "don't make games if you're poor" which no-one was saying. That said I would absolutely say that for different reasons. It's moving to California to be a star levels of suicidal move.
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Jul 3, 2019 15:58
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Yeah, anytime I hear people talking about authenticity blah blah I just bet that there are potatoes, carrots (yellow in this period, not orange), and tomatoes visible on the table.
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Jul 3, 2019 16:25
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Kinda related, but look at the like/dislike ratio on this Extra Credits video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCj8llyzfWo
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Jul 3, 2019 18:53
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CommissarMega posted:Kinda related, but look at the like/dislike ratio on this Extra Credits video: I mean it's a really dumb video so the ratio makes sense, and the comments are pretty tame. This is like the same sort of "video games caused Columbine" argument that plagued games in the 90/00s.
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Jul 3, 2019 19:20
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:I mean it's a really dumb video so the ratio makes sense, and the comments are pretty tame. This is like the same sort of "video games caused Columbine" argument that plagued games in the 90/00s. Oh, I know, I'm just tickled at all the Nazis getting huffy. And it's Extra Credits taking an anti-Nazi stance too; I thought they were one of the most EDIT: I messed up my word choice. CommissarMega fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Jul 3, 2019 |
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Jul 3, 2019 19:23
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They've been consistently terrible, nothing new.
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Jul 3, 2019 19:25
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Zereth posted:
Citation needed
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Jul 3, 2019 19:46
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