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TTRPGs can be a method for testing and exploring radically new forms of social organization, but they typically just fall into the same, toxic top-down power structures. This industry is a microcosm for the world, but it can be worked on, it can be improved, and if we start locally, we can expand from there.
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Jul 3, 2019 17:18
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I think we may want to quash this tangent here, unless Asmodee is calling for an end to the false premises of civilization.
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Jul 3, 2019 17:19
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Saying that something’s bad because most people can’t be bothered to understand it or do the work to do so is self-defeating and bullshit. Critical thinking is the best tool in our arsenal as our species.
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Jul 3, 2019 17:19
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Mors Rattus posted:For me it's more, as I said, that the utopia imagined sounds like Hell if you're a person like me and want to be represented. What do you feel are the features of a political system that would allow you to be represented adequately and fairly, but not require you to at some point engage in public consensus-building in order to express those interests, even if it's just to design the rules of the system at the start? It's a genuine question because having to publicly argue for your interests is a basic part of how democracy works, and the only thing that can be done is lowering the barrier to entry for people who are less able to do it the old-fashioned way (in person, orally, in a physical public space with other people physically present). Tuxedo Catfish posted:Also definitely put me down on the list of "on the autism spectrum and extremely suspicious of any organization that substitutes informal hierarchies for formal ones" There is nothing about anarchism that presupposes informal-only hierarchies. Formal hierarchies are perfectly compatible with the absence of coercive power (basically the only notion you'll find in every form of anarchism) as long as they are democratically designed and it is possible to opt out of them (by leaving, without that resulting in inequality in itself) if you don't agree with them. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Jul 3, 2019 |
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Jul 3, 2019 17:29
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Halloween Jack posted:That isn't the issue. I'm treating "I don't trust democracy because I might have to go to a meeting" with the precise level of seriousness it deserves. The inability of democracy to account for the needs and of those who are less capable of organizing and voting is not exactly a novel critique, dude.
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Jul 3, 2019 17:35
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Lemon-Lime posted:What do you feel are the features of a political system that would allow you to be represented adequately and fairly, but not require you to at some point engage in public consensus-building in order to express those interests, even if it's just to design the rules of the system at the start? One in which there was, perhaps, some kind of large-scale organization so that I am not in fact tied literally to my local community and local-scale issues, which in my experience has been the almost exclusive goal of anarchists, and which seems to me to fundamentally ignore the issue of needed resources and services not always being local. Something that is not at its core vulnerable to a charismatic voice swaying a majority into ignoring a minority's needs. Something that will allow me to take part without having to be stared at or the focus of personal attention by hordes of people I don't know when I speak. Do I have a solid idea of what that is? No. Am I required to have a solid plan of my own to be allowed to say "your plan sounds hellish and awful and your only assurance is that in the future, it will magically not be so"? e: oh, and also it would be required to have some form of defense against someone convincing a bunch of people that vaccines cause autism, for example. This is one of the things that fills me with terror - both in our current system and this theoretical one - and one of the things that I can see no defense against in a system that rejects any form of societal coercion. Mors Rattus fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Jul 3, 2019 |
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Jul 3, 2019 17:37
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This is really just making me wonder how the San Jenaro Co-Op is doing. The kickstarter for the heists did pretty great and I hope it's a workable model able to control any possible influence from bad actors.
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Jul 3, 2019 17:41
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It’s funny but in my experience as a marginalized person who is Terminally Online life got a lot better once I actually got out and encountered cool people in my area instead of just sniping online about people not being woke enough. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 3, 2019 17:41
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Mors Rattus posted:Am I required to have a solid plan of my own to be allowed to say "your plan sounds hellish and awful and your only assurance is that in the future, it will magically not be so"? I mean, "instead of having a town hall meeting, as envisaged in the late 19th century, we might be able to use a forum" doesn't strike me as being some pie-in-the-sky lunacy requiring millions of intermediate steps. I don't really blame you for thinking that since apparently the big pro-anarchist rep here is apparently pro disenfranchisement on the basis of NT status, but, a good anarchist society is going to be one that's considered those things. I'm in kind of an awkward position myself, since I'm not an anarchist, but I feel like their views are being poorly represented and recieved accordingly. Also, all of this long escapes the original point, which is that ancaps aren't traditional anarchists by any stretch, since for them the downsides are the point.
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Jul 3, 2019 17:45
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Arivia posted:It’s funny but in my experience as a marginalized person who is Terminally Online life got a lot better once I actually got out and encountered cool people in my area instead of just sniping online about people not being woke enough. But online is where all the best anime is...
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Jul 3, 2019 17:46
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Arivia posted:It’s funny but in my experience as a marginalized person who is Terminally Online life got a lot better once I actually got out and encountered cool people in my area instead of just sniping online about people not being woke enough. Good for you.
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Jul 3, 2019 17:50
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disabilities of all kinds make interacting in physical spaces difficult hth anyone who is confused by that notion
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Jul 3, 2019 17:55
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wow look at all these poasts did zak s announce his intention to poo poo his pants at chick fil a on the last day of gen con 2019? ...oh....
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Jul 3, 2019 17:57
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Cat Face Joe posted:wow look at all these poasts did zak s announce his intention to poo poo his pants at chick fil a on the last day of gen con 2019? it turns out that analyzing and working on structural issues in the ttrpg industry also requires understanding and analyzing larger, societal structural issues, who would have guessed???
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Jul 3, 2019 17:59
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This is the only time in my life I can honestly thank god for the ennies, and hope that's enough to abort this abortion of a political chat.
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Jul 3, 2019 18:01
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Meinberg posted:it turns out that analyzing and working on structural issues in the ttrpg industry also requires understanding and analyzing larger, societal structural issues, who would have guessed??? look pal, i come here to find out which osr writer poo poo their pants at which fast food joint and on which day of what con
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Jul 3, 2019 18:04
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Halloween Jack posted:Because in an anarchist society, they'd have no material stake in doing so. Is an anarchist society going to do away with ethnic and religious differences? If not, how does it stop ethnic and religious conflict from turning violent? If so, isn't that kind of monstrous? quote:I'm not going to lie, a socialist society is probably going to be less fun for people who only want to participate in society through consumerism and broadcast media.
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Jul 3, 2019 18:12
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Cat Face Joe posted:look pal, i come here to find out which osr writer poo poo their pants at which fast food joint and on which day of what con Halloween Jack shat his pants on this thread at 14:07 GMT, July 3rd 2019.
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Jul 3, 2019 18:14
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Warthur posted:The Nazis didn't have a material stake in implementing the Holocaust, they still did it. There's studies which show that the process of the Holocaust was a hideous net drain on the German economy, but they kept sustaining it even in the late war when it was very obvious that tying up a massive infrastructure in the process of mass murder of basically harmless civilians was diverting all sorts of material which could have been used to hold back the Red Army. The idea that people are only going to be lovely to each other for the sake of objective material advantage is... troublingly simplistic. Of course, one can argue this is an imperfect knowledge problem. The Nazis surely believed that those harmless civilians were secretly super damaging to their society and that the Holocaust was conferring a material advantage. I'm not sure how anarchism is supposed to eliminate imperfect knowledge problems, especially when people like the Nazis were and are demonstrably willing to deal with folks saying "Hey, check it out, I ran the numbers and this Holocaust thing isn't conferring a material advantage" by shooting said folks behind the chemical sheds and burning their spreadsheets. Warthur posted:A perfect example. There was no material gain to you for saying something so pointlessly cruel, hurtful, heartless, and ignorant, but you were still an evil enough rear end in a top hat to say it. But that, too.
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Jul 3, 2019 18:18
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Warthur posted:Halloween Jack shat his pants on this thread at 14:07 GMT, July 3rd 2019. thank you
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Jul 3, 2019 18:21
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Lemon-Lime posted:No, it's "take a cow and make it spherical and fictionless, then work off that." A major example: religious folk are likely to put a very high value on spiritual concepts and needs which other people might not even concede the basic existence of. (Materialist humanists would tend to argue that there is no such thing as "spirituality" full stop; folk of other religious persuasions may decide that the first set of religious folk have their cosmology all wrong, to the point where their idea of spirituality is meaningless garbage.) gradenko_2000 posted:The broad critique of "anarchism isn't workable because it requires that people aren't going to be dicks" feels a little simplistic under the notion that it's capitalism itself that pushes people towards unvitiated self-interest to the point of societal harm, and also acts as an active disincentive towards mutualism. Genocide and religious war were with us long before capitalism was a thing. There is no reason to imagine that removing capitalism will make them disappear. There is no reason to imagine that removing formalised hierarchy will automatically make informal religious/ethnic hierarchies disappear. There is no way to make ethnic or religious or other such distinctions disappear without massive atrocities of your own.
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Jul 3, 2019 18:28
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moths posted:This is the only time in my life I can honestly thank god for the ennies, and hope that's enough to abort this abortion of a political chat. This year the spread of products actually looks okay? I was expecting nothing but D&D, Pathfinder, and CoC as usual -- but even if there's still a lean in that direction, the indie rep is way better than it used to be. (Also we all know The Cube is going to sweep every category it's in, but I'll take what progress I can get.)
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Jul 3, 2019 18:35
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Capitalism is just one vector of marginalization and acting like removing it will remove the others is act of folly. That doesn’t mean that we should stop working on dismantling capitalism though! We can do multiple things at once!
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Jul 3, 2019 18:42
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Yeah this is the first time the Ennies haven't been a complete Pathfinder / 5e circle jerk. Is it just that 5e is functionally discontinued and PF is on hiatus pending 2e?
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Jul 3, 2019 18:55
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Warthur posted:The Nazis didn't have a material stake in implementing the Holocaust, they still did it. There's studies which show that the process of the Holocaust was a hideous net drain on the German economy, but they kept sustaining it even in the late war when it was very obvious that tying up a massive infrastructure in the process of mass murder of basically harmless civilians was diverting all sorts of material which could have been used to hold back the Red Army. quote:The idea that people are only going to be lovely to each other for the sake of objective material advantage is... troublingly simplistic.
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Jul 3, 2019 18:58
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Halloween Jack posted:I agree! Who's saying this?
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Jul 3, 2019 19:01
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I await our ANARCHO-TTRPG future where Zak S style cults of personality have the real power.
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Jul 3, 2019 19:05
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moths posted:Yeah this is the first time the Ennies haven't been a complete Pathfinder / 5e circle jerk. Is it just that 5e is functionally discontinued and PF is on hiatus pending 2e? Yeah, could be. But 5e has released a number of their big mega-module things in the past year -- Whateveritis of Saltmarsh is the most recent, but I'm pretty certain the Chult one also dropped in 2018. Neither of them so much as get a mention.
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Jul 3, 2019 19:10
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Warthur posted:You gave a perfect impression of someone saying it/implying it, but then again you also give a quite convincing facsimile of civility before you decided to air your ableism in public.
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Jul 3, 2019 19:13
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potatocubed posted:(Also we all know The Cube is going to sweep every category it's in, but I'll take what progress I can get.) That picture of Jeb! standing in front of the electoral college map, but it's the Six Fingered Hand.
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Jul 3, 2019 19:14
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Halloween Jack posted:It is gobsmacking to me that anyone thinks this was ever a legitimate concern about disability accommodation (In a hypothetical future anarchist utopia. Based on ideas MR doesn't understand, and activism they don't participate in.) When people concern-troll stuff they can't be bothered to read a Wikipedia page about, rude dismissal shouldn't be surprising! No, dig up, stupid!
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Jul 3, 2019 19:16
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Didn't The Cube turn out to be cheaply produced chintz?
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Jul 3, 2019 19:17
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hi I'd just like to interrupt to say that after creating the term gm intrusion monte cook went on to rename "cyphers" his one-shot magic items from numenera, in his I don't know time travel and dinosaurs game? to timefuckeries also gently caress you for saying "The only motherfuckers dumb enough to think you can just turn government off tomorrow and everything will sort itself out are ancaps", this is posadist erasure this has been a bad post intrusion with the aim of helping halloween jack and others avoid timefuckeries of six or more hours in wherever this thread is going 90s Cringe Rock fucked around with this message at 19:24 on Jul 3, 2019 |
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Jul 3, 2019 19:21
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moths posted:Didn't The Cube turn out to be cheaply produced chintz? The high level of financial buy-in required to acquired THE CUBE assures that anyone who has acquired it has a psychological buy-in to it as well, to convince themselves that the money that they have spent isn’t actually worthless. It’s the sunk cost fallacy as curation.
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Jul 3, 2019 19:23
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90s Cringe Rock posted:also gently caress you for saying only ancaps are stupid enough to think randomly destroying the state with no replacement is the way to a socialist utopia, this is posadist erasure 
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Jul 3, 2019 19:23
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Monte Cook is not one of the space comrades and should not be listened to.
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Jul 3, 2019 19:25
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Monte Cook does not believe in questioning his unconscious biases. Sometimes this is reflected in a weird but meaningless setting that still resolves most of its weirdness to boring nickel and dime modifiers. Sometimes this is reflected in him charging several hundred dollars for a box full of cheap plastic crap. Sometimes it leads to calling the people who live under the Beanstalk “beaners” or making it so that First Nations’ people are less likely to have souls in The Strange. Monte Cook bad imho
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Jul 3, 2019 19:33
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I suspect that hierarchical structures have advantages in organization, coordination, and response time that horizontal structures will never be able to compete with, but I don't know how you'd even begin to actually measure and test such a theory. Well, you could compare the success and longevity of anarchist revolutions against, say, Marxist-Leninist revolutions. Huh, would you look at that,
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Jul 3, 2019 19:37
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Ferrinus posted:Well, you could compare the success and longevity of anarchist revolutions against, say, Marxist-Leninist revolutions. Huh, would you look at that, Let's get this thing going.
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Jul 3, 2019 19:40
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So far the outcome of Marxist-Leninist revolutions is in virtually all cases capitalism, so IDK.
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Jul 3, 2019 20:07
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