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Moridin920 posted:If dude is sending out death squads I feel like the UN should go in with peacekeepers and remove the administration and make elections happen. In an ideal world. As has been well established, no one is allowed to do anything about the actual death squads in Venezuela because that might lead to hypothetical death squads in Venezuela.
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Jul 6, 2019 19:53
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fishmech posted:I agree that Kim Il Sung shouldn't have launched an aggressive war of conquest, but I don't see what that has to do with Venezuela? Do you have information that Maduro plans to attack Guyana or something? Is this a defense of the US involvement in the Korean War (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 6, 2019 19:55
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Moridin920 posted:Well I'm saying in an ideal world it would be the UN's job and that way it could be done in accordance with international law etc. instead of what usually happens which is the US coming in and bombing everything to gently caress and then handing the reigns over to whoever promises the most capital flows back to imperial center. You could argue that it is peacekeeping if they're removing a government that is sending out death squads. toasting Maduro probably just means wossername becomes president and business continues more or less as usual She probably wouldn't be meaningfully better than him at running the country, although there's a chance Maduro is genuinely exceptional at intra-party knife fighting and his sudden death would lead to party infighting and a result of ??? also direct US military action of any sort in Venezuela probably in and of itself strengthens support for the PSUV
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Jul 6, 2019 20:00
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brugroffil posted:Is this a defense of the US involvement in the Korean War Police action. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 6, 2019 20:12
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brugroffil posted:Is this a defense of the US involvement in the Korean War What is your problem with the UN-directed coalition that fought back against Kim Il Sung's unprovoked invasion, and what does it have to do with Venezuela?
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Jul 6, 2019 20:20
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Rust Martialis posted:Police action. this thread, 2 pages ago: police violence is murder this thread, now: carpet bombing every city in north korea was just a police action, and therefore ok hell, that infamous tankie publication the new york times just today ran a piece about how only a few of the mass graves from the korean war have been excavated, and there are still tens of thousands of bodies unaccounted for. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 6, 2019 20:29
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According to the New York Times, a U.N report claims that Maduros death squads have killed over 5000 people in 2018 alone. Compare this to the 3200 Pinochet killed during his entire reign of terror. If the report is true, we can safely say that Maduro is worse than Pinochet in pretty much every metric. In what way could and should the international community act? Not the US specifically, the world community or any party able to act on the situation. Russia and China will most likely protect Maduro in the UN so the UN will probably be a unable to act in any meaningful way. What can be done in this situation? More sanctions? Sternly worded letters of concern?
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Jul 6, 2019 20:29
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fnox posted:Any civilian government would be better than what we have right now. Again, a civilian government would have to coalesce with other parts to maintain governability. I don't want Guaido to stay, I want him to call for elections. If the country is actually split, then lets get a split government. However bad a civilian government can be it is not going to be anywhere near as capable for unchecked evil as the current one. I get that’s what you want, but do you get that that’s not how things usually turn out when people like Bolton and Abrams are pulling the strings? They’re not being subtle about it, either. They have openly said that they want to bring back Reagan’s “stomp out the Commies” policy for Latin America.
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Jul 6, 2019 20:32
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Majorian why are you condescendingly explaining South American political history to a Venezuelan who has demonstrated they are keenly aware of all of that but nevertheless have a different opinion than you do? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 6, 2019 20:46
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Majorian posted:I get that’s what you want, but do you get that that’s not how things usually turn out when people like Bolton and Abrams are pulling the strings? They’re not being subtle about it, either. They have openly said that they want to bring back Reagan’s “stomp out the Commies” policy for Latin America. Look I loving get it but I don't see any other way out. Maduro is not gonna stop, the killing is not gonna stop, the economy is not gonna stabilize, people are not gonna return, Venezuela will continue falling until there's nothing left to sap and then what will be left is nothing but absolute anarchy being fought over by local warlords. If that's the Venezuela you want, so be it. I get that it's a deal with the devil. I loving understand this. I. Get. It. But you look at what we have now, and what we have now is a loving mess with not very many options on the table. These options that were lighter existed. The possibility of fixing poo poo before it got to this point existed. The possibility of a transitional government that calls for elections in 30 days existed. They don't any more. Those opportunities were wasted. What we have now is a fully entrenched Maduro, who is only leaving power if pushed out or if assassinated. This man, now that his crimes are coming to light, he's not going to find safe harbour, and he doesn't deserve to go unpunished. The options on the table are loving awful but they are what we've got and if you wait more people will die. fnox fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Jul 6, 2019 |
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Jul 6, 2019 20:56
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fnox posted:Look I loving get it but I don't see any other way out. Maduro is not gonna stop, the killing is not gonna stop, the economy is not gonna stabilize, people are not gonna return, Venezuela will continue falling until there's nothing left to sap and then what will be left is nothing but absolute anarchy being fought over by local warlords. If that's the Venezuela you want, so be it. And conveniently you support a military invasion that won't affect you. What a hero.
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Jul 6, 2019 20:58
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uninterrupted posted:And conveniently you support a military invasion that won't affect you. What a hero. Support, no. And that it won't affect me? Yes it will, just like how this entire crisis has been affected me even long after I've left as it hurts literally everything I've ever known. It sure as gently caress won't affect you. I don't support it, I don't like it, I loving hate it. But guess what? The crisis, if it goes on, it's going to continue destroying everything just the same. And frankly, if knowing what you know now you still Maduro is just an ineffectual moustachioed buffoon and not the monster he is, then I'm not interested in hearing what you have to say.
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Jul 6, 2019 21:03
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fishmech posted:What is your problem with the UN-directed coalition that fought back against Kim Il Sung's unprovoked invasion, and what does it have to do with Venezuela? Lol Well good luck on the next Police Action Coalition of the Willing
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Jul 7, 2019 00:07
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'I'm actually brave and selfless to support a military coup that will be backed by the same forces that have raped and pillaged this region already using the exact same methods' is a hell of a cross to build for yourself
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Jul 7, 2019 00:08
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fnox if things in Venezuela ever get back to normal, would you want to go back? Not going anywhere with this question just curious on what your feelings on return would be
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Jul 7, 2019 00:09
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brugroffil posted:Lol Are you suggesting Venezuela plans to invade another country soon?
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Jul 7, 2019 00:10
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I think both Chavez and Maduro are the main culprits of the current crisis. With a thousand percent inflation in less than a year, before any sanctions whatsoever, the system would have killed people in either case. Oil shocks affected other countries, and difficult socioeconomic histories are also not unique. Instead, the policies, including price controls and overall economic incompetence, are a disaster. I also understand Venezuelan goons asking for the US to invade and get rid of the government. I would probably have the same reaction in their place. However, I think the only "right" way to do this would be a sanctioned UN ruling based on some hypothetical law that probably doesn't exist, to remove the government of a country. Anyone, especially the US, stepping in is simply an act of war. Lack of democracy is sadly not a legitimate reason to invade. So any change must come from within the country, and if that doesn't work, it must come from coercive actions of neighboring states. Until the UN decides otherwise, I don't feel like the US has any right to start poo poo, and if it does, its probably not with decent motives. I also think that the sanctions are a mistake. There is a conditional here. The sanctions kill people, because and conditional on Maduro's governing being garbage. Nevertheless they kill people, and Maduro's garbageness was known before they came into effect. If the intent was to force an uprising because conditions deteriorate, then I find this cynical and cruel (and, also, this has never worked). Overall, sadly, there is very little the US can actually do to help. Venezuela under the current socialist regime will self-destruct with and without sanctions, so I think in the interest of not having starving people on your consciousness, Americans should think about removing the sanctions. And even if, after removing sanctions, we circle back to smug tankies telling us about the socialist paradise of Venezuela where no one is poor, as in ye olde times itt (and the equivalent on the political world stage), it's still better than people dying for no reason other than what amounts to pettiness. Haramstufe Rot fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Jul 7, 2019 |
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Jul 7, 2019 00:10
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brugroffil posted:fnox if things in Venezuela ever get back to normal, would you want to go back? Things are extremely far from normal. My entire family nucleus isn’t there anymore, my friends and acquaintances have largely left, the company I worked for is gone, my parents home is gone, my car is gone, my things are gone. I’d return but at this stage it’d be like being on an entirely different country, and I don’t know if it can ever be back to normal. It took me almost 3 years for me to land on my feet again, and I wouldn’t want all that effort to go to waste and have to start all over. If Maduro were to fall tomorrow, I wouldn’t be coming back to the country tomorrow. It’ll likely take a decade before any semblance of stability is achieved. sexpig by night posted:'I'm actually brave and selfless to support a military coup that will be backed by the same forces that have raped and pillaged this region already using the exact same methods' is a hell of a cross to build for yourself What do you propose we do about the death squads currently raping and pillaging the country?
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Jul 7, 2019 08:11
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sexpig by night posted:'I'm actually brave and selfless to support a military coup that will be backed by the same forces that have raped and pillaged this region already using the exact same methods' is a hell of a cross to build for yourself At least he isn't championing for a dictator who is worse than Pinochet in every metric, while sitting far away, unaffected by all the suffering said dictator inflicts on his subjects. Seriously, every potential horror the pro-Maduro crowd used to bring up when Guaido had a shot as power is already happening. We have death squads going door to door, mass killings, torture centers, gangs of state backed thugs firing at unarmed protesters and mass starvation of the poor. Sadly, every opportunity to resolve this peacefully seems to have evaporated, civil war or US intervention being the most likely outcomes. Both of those will be bloody and terrible for everyone involved.
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Jul 7, 2019 12:22
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There are a number of posters here who are totally fine with death squads as long as they're not US-backed. That's all they care about.
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Jul 7, 2019 14:31
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fishmech posted:What is your problem with the UN-directed coalition that fought back against Kim Il Sung's unprovoked invasion Carpet bombing civilians is wrong, fishmech
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Jul 7, 2019 14:31
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Noshtane posted:At least he isn't championing for a dictator who is worse than Pinochet in every metric, while sitting far away, unaffected by all the suffering said dictator inflicts on his subjects. Taking a U.N. report from the former wildly corrupt president of Chile at face value is laughably dumb and par for course for the pro-US coup supporters. For real, do we need to rehash the “Maduro is closing down bridges!” or “Maduro is burning down aid!” or “evil soldiers are keeping people from drinking sewage water!” before people uncritically parrot every Brown Man Bad report?
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Jul 7, 2019 15:45
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uninterrupted posted:Taking a U.N. report from the former wildly corrupt president of Chile at face value is laughably dumb and par for course for the pro-US coup supporters. Michelle Bachelet's father was part of the Allende Government and was tortured by Pinochet until he died. She herself was arrested and sent to Pinochet's detention centers. She's seen what a military dictatorship looks like. I think at some point you need to evaluate yourself and think if you're going too far into conspiracy theory territory. At some point you gotta start questioning if Maduro is really who you think he is.
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Jul 7, 2019 16:04
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fnox posted:Michelle Bachelet's father was part of the Allende Government and was tortured by Pinochet until he died. She herself was arrested and sent to Pinochet's detention centers. She's seen what a military dictatorship looks like. It’s not a conspiracy theory when I’ve repeatedly quoted specific instances of the west lying about Venezuela. Especially when your only response to it is Brown Man Bad and Maduro Is Worse Than Saddam.
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Jul 7, 2019 16:29
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uninterrupted posted:It’s not a conspiracy theory when I’ve repeatedly quoted specific instances of the west lying about Venezuela. Especially when your only response to it is Brown Man Bad and Maduro Is Worse Than Saddam. So other people not buying into PSUV propaganda proves that a report written by the United Nation human rights chief is wrong? The woman in question suffered the horrors of a US backed right wing dictatorship and still you think she's a CIA plant and a gusano? Have you read the report and can point out the flaws and errors? Or do you simply dismiss it because it exposes the atrocities committed by The Great Leader and your personal hero, Maduro?
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Jul 7, 2019 16:57
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VitalSigns posted:Carpet bombing civilians is wrong, fishmech I agree that it was wrong for Kim Il Sung to bomb out vast swathes of the country he was invading, but how is that relevant to Venezuela? Is Maduro planning to carpet bomb Guyana that you brought this up?
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Jul 7, 2019 17:02
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The US military adventurism defender has logged on
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Jul 7, 2019 17:03
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fishmech posted:I agree that it was wrong for Kim Il Sung to bomb out vast swathes of the country he was invading, but how is that relevant to Venezuela? Is Maduro planning to carpet bomb Guyana that you brought this up? I didn't bring it up, but I suspect the person who did bring it up was referring to the horrific atrocities the UN committed once they decided that their goal was regime change, like carpet bombing North Korea so throughly they ran out of structures to destroy and started bombing rubble into finer rubble. I can't tell if you are trolling me or are genuinely ignorant of these atrocities but if it's the latter you should read up on contemporary accounts because the US military brass was quite candid about their genocidal campaign and thanks to the prevailing acceptability of racism in 1950 they saw no need to disguise themselves with talk of noble humanitarian goals like they do today when they want to go murder a bunch of foreigners. What it has to do with Venezuela is someone suggesting a UN invasion of that country would be a good idea. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 7, 2019 17:19
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VitalSigns posted:I didn't bring it up, but I suspect the person who did bring it up was referring to the horrific atrocities the UN committed once they decided that their goal was regime change, Oh I see your problem, you forgot Kim Il Sung was the one who attempted regime change by initiating a massive unprovoked invasion. Still don't see what this has to do with Venezuela unless you believe Maduro is planning to do the same to one of his neighbors? Maybe you should stop trying to praise dictators doing invasions?
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Jul 7, 2019 17:21
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fishmech posted:Oh I see your problem, you forgot Kim Il Sung was the one who attempted regime change by initiating a massive unprovoked invasion. Still don't see what this has to do with Venezuela unless you believe Maduro is planning to do the same to one of his neighbors? what i'm trying to say is kiss yourself fishmech you aging ben shapiro wunderkind knockoff (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 7, 2019 17:31
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like it's gotta suck having an identity wrapped up in being a smart child. the first wrinkles have gotta be creeping in. you could be forever young if you wanted. it's pretty easy to do.
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Jul 7, 2019 17:37
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Zurakara posted:you know genocide isn't great and some people have actually lost family to america's adventurism You're going to have to show how Kim Il Sung's invasion of South Korea is actually America's fault, and furthermore how on Earth that's related to anything Venezuela's ever done to another country. Or is this so that you can whine about how Hitler's invasions were really American and Soviet adventurism and no one should have touched poor little Nazi Germany? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 7, 2019 17:39
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uninterrupted posted:It’s not a conspiracy theory when I’ve repeatedly quoted specific instances of the west lying about Venezuela. Especially when your only response to it is Brown Man Bad and Maduro Is Worse Than Saddam. So about this specific instance, what, it’s all bullshit? Bachelet made up everything she saw? The government didn’t admit to killing 5600 people in a year? You’re gash galloping, address the report.
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Jul 7, 2019 17:42
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If Chilean corruption under Bachelet somehow discredits the UN report about human rights violations, even though that is not a proper logical argument since it is an unrelated matter, then Venezuelan corruption under Maduro should discredit his position on the subject as well.
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Jul 7, 2019 19:02
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whether the report is true or not is moot. the political class that wrote it is the same as the one who sees no economic benefit in regime change. turns out the price per barrel required to destabilize venezuela also precludes investment in the death-squad infrastructure required to topple 'my bestest friend' maduro.
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Jul 7, 2019 19:49
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Periodic reminder that the U.S. is now the largest oil producer in the world and since the spread of fracking and tar sands exploitation the notion that anyone gives a poo poo about traditional oil extraction in Venezuela is ludicrous. "War for oil" was a naive misunderstanding of Cheney's motivations in 2003 and alleging it has anything to do with the free world's position on Venezuela in 2019 is about as up-to-date as claiming that people dislike Maduro because their milkman told them to. Worry about what happens to Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. as the Mideast continues to destabilize due to oil becoming a worthless commodity. Don't worry about anyone invading Venezuela to steal their oil - there's no economic sense to that.
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Jul 7, 2019 20:39
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M. Discordia posted:Periodic reminder that the U.S. is now the largest oil producer in the world and since the spread of fracking and tar sands exploitation the notion that anyone gives a poo poo about traditional oil extraction in Venezuela is ludicrous. "War for oil" was a naive misunderstanding of Cheney's motivations in 2003 and alleging it has anything to do with the free world's position on Venezuela in 2019 is about as up-to-date as claiming that people dislike Maduro because their milkman told them to. Unsurprisingly, US National Security Advisor John Bolton disagrees with you: https://twitter.com/hoothootberns/status/1089857134920114176?s=21 War for oil was exactly what Iraq was and it’s not surprising that pro-invasion people are quick to hand wave away the exact same motivations in the US led and backed coup attempt. For real, what kind of logic “well, we’re making a ton of oil frack at high marginal cost, we’ll just ignore the largest proven oil reserves on the planet”.
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Jul 7, 2019 21:39
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M. Discordia posted:Periodic reminder that the U.S. is now the largest oil producer in the world and since the spread of fracking and tar sands exploitation the notion that anyone gives a poo poo about traditional oil extraction in Venezuela is ludicrous. "War for oil" was a naive misunderstanding of Cheney's motivations in 2003 and alleging it has anything to do with the free world's position on Venezuela in 2019 is about as up-to-date as claiming that people dislike Maduro because their milkman told them to. This post from 2000 AD has aged poorly
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Jul 7, 2019 21:43
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So that's just the line now? The Bachelet report is fake? You're not even going to remotely change your posture on Maduro? You're not gonna address the killing, the murder, the rape, the death squads, the torture centres? Like, here. Just point to which parts are fake.
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Jul 7, 2019 21:47
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fnox posted:So that's just the line now? The Bachelet report is fake? You're not even going to remotely change your posture on Maduro? You're not gonna address the killing, the murder, the rape, the death squads, the torture centres? It’s the exact same arguments that came up with Iran/Libya/Syria/etc. I don’t have to Bellingcat my way through a document refuting every claim when the recommendations include “make vaccines more accessible“ and not “end the sanctions literally preventing vaccines from being sent to Venezuela”, or even “don’t put Venezuelan refugees in concentration camps when they apply for asylum in the US” The US overthrowing governments in South America always end badly full goddamn stop. Obviously there are issues with the Venezuelan educational system if you don’t understand that.
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Jul 7, 2019 21:58
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