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theironjef posted:I think you'll find 4Chan believes the ideal woman shits cherry blossoms. edit: this is the worst snype
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Jul 7, 2019 20:49
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theironjef posted:I did an AP episode for the kickstarter of Domina Magicka, which is a magical girl game by some network friends, and Emily, who both wrote it and had spent that GenCon running it dozens of times, said that you could tell in a vacuum whether a character for the game was created by a man or woman player, because men were pretty much universally obsessed with either deconstructing or subverting the genre (playing secret evil, tortured, etc.), or at the very least creating questions about gender through play, while women playing were enjoying a game of Magical Girl RPG time and played characters that were true to the genre. This is a really good point. I can't speak for all women here, of course, but when I roleplay in feminine-focused genres, what I hope for is the chance not to examine gender for once -- to be able to play in a game where feminine gender and viewpoint is the default, rather than fundamentally being marked as "other" and something I have to work through and justify. There's nothing wrong with playing with issues of sexism and gender roles, but I want games where I don't have to bring that to the table if I don't want to, because so many games force you to treat female characters as "others" or requiring high-energy messy backstories when there's no good reason to. Really, I think it just ties into why it's important that minorities and stigmatized groups get "fluffy" representation in games and media; in a world that tells you your existence is abnormal, it's good to have stuff that treats you like a normal person.
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Jul 7, 2019 21:36
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Ewen Cluney posted:It's the thing that I wrote it in like 2007 or so, and now I want to redo it with better rules and like half the word count, but I have so many other things I want/need to work on that it's way on the back burner. I only did a short playtest--which was pretty fun--but it probably needs more work. It was from well before most of my games started having at least some Powered by the Apocalypse in them in any case. Thank you for posting. 
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Jul 7, 2019 21:37
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Yawgmoth posted:I think you'll find there's no limit to what 4chan wants women to poo poo. New thread title, imho
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Jul 7, 2019 21:38
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Antivehicular posted:This is a really good point. I can't speak for all women here, of course, but when I roleplay in feminine-focused genres, what I hope for is the chance not to examine gender for once -- to be able to play in a game where feminine gender and viewpoint is the default, rather than fundamentally being marked as "other" and something I have to work through and justify. There's nothing wrong with playing with issues of sexism and gender roles, but I want games where I don't have to bring that to the table if I don't want to, because so many games force you to treat female characters as "others" or requiring high-energy messy backstories when there's no good reason to. Time to examine my biases since I didn't even realize I was making that point, I was just thinking about how lovely men players are that they can only deign to interact with a magical girl game with some tweezers made of deconstructionism or parody.
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Jul 7, 2019 22:02
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theironjef posted:Time to examine my biases since I didn't even realize I was making that point, I was just thinking about how lovely men players are that they can only deign to interact with a magical girl game with some tweezers made of deconstructionism or parody. Oh, I'm not sure you were? It was more a jumping-off point for my own thoughts on this topic. I definitely agree with you that it's frustrating that male players (and media creators) can't seem to find ways to interact with female-focused genres with seriousness and sincerity, especially since female players/creators are expected to treat male-focused genres that way and get pilloried for treating them the way dudes treat magical girl shows/etc.
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Jul 7, 2019 22:11
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theironjef posted:Time to examine my biases since I didn't even realize I was making that point, I was just thinking about how lovely men players are that they can only deign to interact with a magical girl game with some tweezers made of deconstructionism or parody. It may simply be that if there’s no game feedback on the character’s gender, playing a magical girl feels the same to a guy as playing a magical boy - and is therefore easily forgettable. And deconstruction or parody are both ways to add that feedback to the game without it becoming inappropriate or creepy.
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Jul 7, 2019 22:30
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Play a lady like you would play a fella except every so often you get a phone call from your mother about how you should settle down and find a man, or a girlfriend if you prefer, unless your mom isn't particularly worried about that and is just happy that you're okay
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Jul 7, 2019 22:37
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hyphz posted:It may simply be that if there’s no game feedback on the character’s gender, playing a magical girl feels the same to a guy as playing a magical boy - and is therefore easily forgettable. And deconstruction or parody are both ways to add that feedback to the game without it becoming inappropriate or creepy. The problem here is the assumption that it's less "inappropriate or creepy" to tear down the genre/tone you're playing than to just play a member of your opposite gender as you would a member of your own. Playing cross-gender doesn't have to be an amazing life-changing experience for you, and I'd argue that it probably shouldn't be.
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Jul 7, 2019 22:41
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Antivehicular posted:This is a really good point. I can't speak for all women here, of course, but when I roleplay in feminine-focused genres, what I hope for is the chance not to examine gender for once -- to be able to play in a game where feminine gender and viewpoint is the default, rather than fundamentally being marked as "other" and something I have to work through and justify. There's nothing wrong with playing with issues of sexism and gender roles, but I want games where I don't have to bring that to the table if I don't want to, because so many games force you to treat female characters as "others" or requiring high-energy messy backstories when there's no good reason to. She hated The Fade so much she made me read it just so she would have someone to get angry about it with. *not, like, explicitly, but it's one of her pet peeves about women in fiction in general Splicer fucked around with this message at 22:45 on Jul 7, 2019 |
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Jul 7, 2019 22:42
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Antivehicular posted:The problem here is the assumption that it's less "inappropriate or creepy" to tear down the genre/tone you're playing than to just play a member of your opposite gender as you would a member of your own. Playing cross-gender doesn't have to be an amazing life-changing experience for you, and I'd argue that it probably shouldn't be. That's right as a general way of playing a character of the opposite gender. But the post that kicked this off was about RPGs exploring femininity in the way Magical Girl fiction might, and playing a magical boy with an F in the Gender box isn't exploring femininity (it may be a statement about it, but it surely isn't exploring it) Your earlier post and theironjef's experience both imply that woman players don't need/want to have "exploring femininity" considered as a theme because since they're women it's normal for them. And in fact that's probably one of the key facts about it. As a guy, an RPG has no way of simulating it being "normal" in the same way for me, no matter what character I play. If it's explicitly called out or expressed, it's not being treated as normal. If it's not explicit, then as a guy since I'm not bringing my own femininity to the table, it's absent.
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Jul 7, 2019 22:57
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Xarbala posted:Play a lady like you would play a fella except every so often you get a phone call from your mother about how you should settle down and find a man, or a girlfriend if you prefer, unless your mom isn't particularly worried about that and is just happy that you're okay Nothing has changed. Splicer posted:Mrs. Splicer has been having a similar issue with trying to find decent female protagonist, non-YA genre fiction. Most of the women are either, well, the usual women in sci fi and fantasy, or the book is all about Exploring Female Themes. She just wants to read a book where a person goes around being a badass in space/elfland/space elfland and that person is also female. Bonus points if that person occasionally bangs people* and it's not treated like a big deal or in a weird male fantasy way. Have you tried looking at Xianxia novels? There's a real big rear end amount of good ones with decently written female MCs. e: Comedy Option: The Spider Isekai
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Jul 7, 2019 23:10
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hyphz posted:No, I haven’t. Cool, just checking. Feminism and gender theory are going to have about as many takes as people in the room, but it might be worth looking into some basic resources if you are struggling with how to approach femininity and gender in a storytelling medium. hyphz posted:The strawberries thing I was taking an example of the idea that the height of femininity is being a ribbons-and-bows perfect princess, thus excluding most women from it. Which I believe is considered fairly offensive? That was what I was alluding to, yes, but keep in mind that it's only exclusionary if it's presented as the only valid form of feminine gender expression. Women can be girly, they can be masculine, or they can (and most do) move between both or have interests that are both stereotypically masculine or feminine because the gender binary is a lie. The point of exploring femininity in something like a magical girl story is that for the most part, femininity is seen as useless or ancillary to masculine drives. Magical girls shows are a rare subgenre where multiple kinds of femininity (think of how different all the Sailor Scouts are while still being distinctly feminine) are portrayed not just as valid and worthwhile, but also a source of evil-destroying, world-saving power. hyphz posted:That's right as a general way of playing a character of the opposite gender. But the post that kicked this off was about RPGs exploring femininity in the way Magical Girl fiction might, and playing a magical boy with an F in the Gender box isn't exploring femininity (it may be a statement about it, but it surely isn't exploring it) I already covered that I don't believe that's the case, except sub out the bit where I said "statement" for "exploring it", I guess.
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Jul 7, 2019 23:21
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hyphz posted:It may simply be that if there’s no game feedback on the character’s gender, playing a magical girl feels the same to a guy as playing a magical boy - and is therefore easily forgettable. And deconstruction or parody are both ways to add that feedback to the game without it becoming inappropriate or creepy. To begin with, you keep saying that "if the system doesn't have hard-coded gender, it's easily forgettable," and that doesn't logically follow. Having no "game feedback on gender" is itself a worthwhile experience to have, because the real world tends to give people too much poo poo for how they do or don't line up with expectations based on their perceived gender. But the main problem is how it "feels the same to a guy". Why would a system designed to convey the magical girl experience have to be built around what men get out of it? Why would it be that system's problem that men find it "easily forgettable"? Like Antivehicular said, sometimes people who aren't men want nice things too. (Also: "magical girl" is the name of a genre. You might as well have said "science fiction feels the same as reading a science textbook.")
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Jul 7, 2019 23:41
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Splicer posted:Mrs. Splicer has been having a similar issue with trying to find decent female protagonist, non-YA genre fiction. Most of the women are either, well, the usual women in sci fi and fantasy, or the book is all about Exploring Female Themes. She just wants to read a book where a person goes around being a badass in space/elfland/space elfland and that person is also female. Bonus points if that person occasionally bangs people* and it's not treated like a big deal or in a weird male fantasy way. i wrote a novel with a female protagonist, and as a dude i was really worried about falling into this poo poo. i ended up just trying to focus on writing a compelling character first, one whose personality is informed by experiences shes had as woman, but not constantly thinking or talking about being a woman, and ended up with a lot of positive responses from women who read it. i think watching buffy the vampire slayer when i was younger helped me nail down a lot of poo poo i really hated about guys writing female characters, even when theyre trying to make those characters 'badasses'. there was a tweet i saw a couple of years ago by a black guy saying 'why can't there just be a show where its black guys in space or black guys fighting dragons and they just dont make a big deal out of it' which is another thing I think that helped me. you wouldnt write a male character going around like quote:The kobold snarled. As a man, Drudrick instinctively wanted to protect his balls from the kobold, being as they were his most sensitive weak point. like your wife identified, theres a big problem with people writing characters who belong to identities that the author isnt, and the author either being completely un-woke or far too woke about it.
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Jul 7, 2019 23:43
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Otherkinsey Scale posted:To begin with, you keep saying that "if the system doesn't have hard-coded gender, it's easily forgettable," and that doesn't logically follow. Having no "game feedback on gender" is itself a worthwhile experience to have, because the real world tends to give people too much poo poo for how they do or don't line up with expectations based on their perceived gender. That was more to do with theironjef's friend's observation about males preferring to play deconstructions, because that provides a better excuse for gender to not be easily forgettable. But you are right on the other point and I apologize.
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Jul 7, 2019 23:47
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My other question is, like, why is it a bad thing if playing cross-gender becomes "easily forgettable?" Why is it a problem to become immersed in a female character's personhood above and beyond her gender? When I play dudes, I'm not constantly trying to keep their masculinity in mind -- I just play the character. I know this is a hard thing to work with given how heavily our culture marks women, and particularly marks female characters in media, but "I'm not really paying attention to the fact that the character I'm playing is a woman" is actually a positive outcome!
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Jul 7, 2019 23:56
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It's also worth noting now that playing a magical boy (literally or in spirit) or a magical character of any other gender expression would be just as valid as a magical girl in a magical girl game. Because ultimately the point would be finding strength in traits that are traditionally maligned as weak or incapable of solving problems, and women and girls aren't the only ones who have those traits but normally they're the only ones allowed to express them without shame.
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Jul 7, 2019 23:57
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(I just want to say I've found this a very useful discussion and I really appreciate the various points being made, it's helped me flesh out some thoughts about how to build a game in this genre)
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Jul 8, 2019 00:07
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theironjef posted:I think you'll find 4Chan believes the ideal woman shits cherry blossoms. /pic761801.jpg)
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Jul 8, 2019 00:12
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Nuns with Guns posted:It's also worth noting now that playing a magical boy (literally or in spirit) or a magical character of any other gender expression would be just as valid as a magical girl in a magical girl game. Because ultimately the point would be finding strength in traits that are traditionally maligned as weak or incapable of solving problems, and women and girls aren't the only ones who have those traits but normally they're the only ones allowed to express them without shame. Are there magical girl games that explicitly use those traits as connected to magic?
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Jul 8, 2019 00:13
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Splicer posted:Mrs. Splicer has been having a similar issue with trying to find decent female protagonist, non-YA genre fiction. Most of the women are either, well, the usual women in sci fi and fantasy, or the book is all about Exploring Female Themes. She just wants to read a book where a person goes around being a badass in space/elfland/space elfland and that person is also female. Bonus points if that person occasionally bangs people* and it's not treated like a big deal or in a weird male fantasy way. Fortune's Pawn is 100% what you are looking for. Lady Space Marine stomping on lizard faces forever, amen.
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Jul 8, 2019 00:16
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Antivehicular posted:My other question is, like, why is it a bad thing if playing cross-gender becomes "easily forgettable?" Why is it a problem to become immersed in a female character's personhood above and beyond her gender? When I play dudes, I'm not constantly trying to keep their masculinity in mind -- I just play the character. I know this is a hard thing to work with given how heavily our culture marks women, and particularly marks female characters in media, but "I'm not really paying attention to the fact that the character I'm playing is a woman" is actually a positive outcome! Because looking at a lot of gender experiences, including things like NotAllMen/YesAllWomen and forums or events where people ask questions of the opposite sex, it becomes obvious that things that are 100% normal to a woman are significantly abnormal to a man and vice versa. If I forget my character's gender, I'm at the risk of using the wrong "normal" for the character. A female player wouldn't need to be conscious of playing a female character in the same way, because her "normal" already matches the character.
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Jul 8, 2019 00:16
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hyphz posted:Are there magical girl games that explicitly use those traits as connected to magic? Is there a magical girl RPG you've encountered that doesn't channel the power of friendship, love, compassion, hope, etc. into the character's supernatural abilities?
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Jul 8, 2019 00:23
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I once played a Cardcaptor Sakura game with goons using FAE. It worked well enough for the one shot. Cardcaptor is a good show, by the way. Only magical girl show I ever watched.
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Jul 8, 2019 00:31
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Xarbala posted:every so often you get a phone call from your mother about how you should settle down and find a man, or a girlfriend if you prefer, unless your mom isn't particularly worried about that and is just happy that you're okay This should happen more often in more games.
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Jul 8, 2019 00:35
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Jul 8, 2019 00:57
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That's as big as that's going to get because Luke Crane has a crippling fear of money and success and never released a digital copy.
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Jul 8, 2019 00:59
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Nuns with Guns posted:Is there a magical girl RPG you've encountered that doesn't channel the power of friendship, love, compassion, hope, etc. into the character's supernatural abilities? Sailor Moon just used the BESM system and you just took your levels of Magical Attack and that was it. Magical World was a long while back, but I recall that was based on a tactical combat system too.
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Jul 8, 2019 01:15
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Yawgmoth posted:lemme tell you about what I've seen on 4chan One could probably write several very large books on the topic of 4chan and Gender
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Jul 8, 2019 01:39
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hyphz posted:Because looking at a lot of gender experiences, including things like NotAllMen/YesAllWomen and forums or events where people ask questions of the opposite sex, it becomes obvious that things that are 100% normal to a woman are significantly abnormal to a man and vice versa. If I forget my character's gender, I'm at the risk of using the wrong "normal" for the character. A female player wouldn't need to be conscious of playing a female character in the same way, because her "normal" already matches the character. I suspect we're talking in circles at this point, but I have two things to say about this: 1) Female mentality and experience is not a monolith. If you play a female character as a plausible human being, she will almost certainly read as a plausible woman, and if you have specific questions you can always ask female players at the table. 2) Trying your best to play sincerely, even if there are mistakes, is vastly more respectful/appropriate/non-assholish than playing parody when nobody else is because sincerity is uncomfortable. Bringing parody characters to the table when the intent is a serious game, or deconstruction characters to the table when the intent is to enjoy the genre straightfacedly, is inherently disrespectful; you're basically saying "I can't or don't want to engage with this game as is presented, so I'm going to make something that disrupts everyone else's engagement." This is lovely regardless, but specifically in the context of male players approaching female-focused genres, it comes off as "I can't deal with this not being about me or how I feel, and I can't possibly wrap my mind around not being weird about women, so I'm going to be actively disruptive instead of just awkward."
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Jul 8, 2019 01:41
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Splicer posted:Mrs. Splicer has been having a similar issue with trying to find decent female protagonist, non-YA genre fiction.  Well!Splicer posted:non-YA  Ah shoot.Check back with me in a year or so.
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Jul 8, 2019 01:54
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Splicer posted:Mrs. Splicer has been having a similar issue with trying to find decent female protagonist, non-YA genre fiction. Most of the women are either, well, the usual women in sci fi and fantasy, or the book is all about Exploring Female Themes. She just wants to read a book where a person goes around being a badass in space/elfland/space elfland and that person is also female. Bonus points if that person occasionally bangs people* and it's not treated like a big deal or in a weird male fantasy way. Barrayar by Lois McMaster Bujold, Ancillary Justice and its sequels by Ann Leckie for certain values of 'female', and I guess some of Charles Stross' female-led books are generally decent and look it took me two series to run out of female authors. >_>
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Jul 8, 2019 02:20
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hyphz posted:Sailor Moon just used the BESM system and you just took your levels of Magical Attack and that was it. Magical World was a long while back, but I recall that was based on a tactical combat system too. Ah, okay, I thought you had one of the recent games that was discussed here in mind because as far as I know, all of them integrate those things into their games. Yes, the Sailor Moon RPG is pretty bad, like all BESM stuff. I don't remember Magical World, and google isn't turning up any results for it either, but it is a pretty generic name to search for.
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Jul 8, 2019 02:29
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Splicer posted:Mrs. Splicer has been having a similar issue with trying to find decent female protagonist, non-YA genre fiction. Most of the women are either, well, the usual women in sci fi and fantasy, or the book is all about Exploring Female Themes. She just wants to read a book where a person goes around being a badass in space/elfland/space elfland and that person is also female. Bonus points if that person occasionally bangs people* and it's not treated like a big deal or in a weird male fantasy way.
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Jul 8, 2019 02:31
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Nuns with Guns posted:Ah, okay, I thought you had one of the recent games that was discussed here in mind because as far as I know, all of them integrate those things into their games. Yes, the Sailor Moon RPG is pretty bad, like all BESM stuff. I don't remember Magical World, and google isn't turning up any results for it either, but it is a pretty generic name to search for. It's a very old game by Ewen Cluney which is tied to his Thrash engine which seems to have disappeared. (It is not Magical Burst or Magical Fury.)
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Jul 8, 2019 02:33
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theironjef posted:I did an AP episode for the kickstarter of Domina Magicka, which is a magical girl game by some network friends, and Emily, who both wrote it and had spent that GenCon running it dozens of times, said that you could tell in a vacuum whether a character for the game was created by a man or woman player, because men were pretty much universally obsessed with either deconstructing or subverting the genre (playing secret evil, tortured, etc.), or at the very least creating questions about gender through play, while women playing were enjoying a game of Magical Girl RPG time and played characters that were true to the genre. Monokeros deAstris posted:I bet you could run this as a Be Witching hack. I apparently backed this as well, it's just been a while since I heard anything about it. Where can I find the AP? I'd like to listen to the game in action. Joe Slowboat posted:(I just want to say I've found this a very useful discussion and I really appreciate the various points being made, it's helped me flesh out some thoughts about how to build a game in this genre) Seconded, thanks to everyone who's posted their thoughts.
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Jul 8, 2019 02:57
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Agent Rush posted:I apparently backed this as well, it's just been a while since I heard anything about it. Where can I find the AP? I'd like to listen to the game in action. It's a two-parter that starts here: http://oneshotpodcast.com/one-shot/266-domina-magica-part-1/
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Jul 8, 2019 03:20
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Bogus Adventure posted:New thread title, imho 
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Jul 8, 2019 03:35
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At last, I have contributed something to these forums.
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Jul 8, 2019 03:59
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