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Corte posted:So I went back and watched a few parts of season 2 to get a better handle on the discussion. Something I think that isn't being discussed or noted is that David did not think he was raping Syd. I'm not saying this justifies or excuses his actions. Reviewing the scene where he uses his powers on Syd my interpretation is that he removed her memories of her interactions with Melanie that he believed was manipulation from Farouk causing her to turn on him. It's possible I'm mistaken and David's psychic manipulation went further. Assuming this he believed he was just reverting her back to the "real Syd" before she was twisted by the Shadow King. I guess I'm just trying to point out that perhaps intention should matter when considering the subject.
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Jul 5, 2019 05:56
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AnEdgelord posted:David talked to his "rational mind" towards the end of season one so its been an element for a while. That's right! Oh man, it's been too long since I've watched season one, I loved that sequence!
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Jul 5, 2019 06:00
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There's a reason no one is yelling at David that he's just a rapist and they considered the Season 2 confrontation as an invervention more than a trial. David's a mentally ill young man with a extremely powerful ability to bend reality to what he wants. Zanes post on the last page is on point with how easy that makes it for him to unthinkingly violate someones consent. He was under stress and losing something he cares a lot about which makes it very believable thats how he'd react in the situation without considering what he was really doing or deluding himself that it was OK. He absolutely didn't consider it assualt or think of the consequences at the time but that's still 100% what it was. And I don't think he's actually accepted that or is willing to face the consequences even now in the show. So his own diminished capacity from his mental illness should be taken into account but at the same time he isn't in a position where he's prepared to improve or take responsibility. He's also simply too powerful and delusional to be left at large. That's why he's the villain currently.
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Jul 5, 2019 14:00
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It goes back to what Cary said about reconciling who he thinks he is with what everyone else sees. When they tell him he's done bad things, he rejects it. Now he's telling himself that he "deserves to be loved". This is an absolute statement that does not consider any of his actions or behaviors. This is going further down that path of becoming a monster by convincing himself that he didn't err, and if he did he didn't mean it, etc... I think we are all familiar with the Narcissist's Creed. It's not that he did bad things it's that he's not really seeking to improve himself but to somehow just undo them without really changing or growing as a person. The flip side of this is that this is fantasy. I understand what's Syd said to him, but I'm not sure she's right, since he's using time travel it may be possible for him to actually undo himself in a way that the real world doesn't allow. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Jul 5, 2019 |
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Jul 5, 2019 14:35
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DaveKap posted:This season, David is 50% under Lenny's manipulation... You keep saying this, but I'm not seeing it at all. Why do you think Lenny is manipulating David? So far, she's been behaving as just another of his goons, albeit the highest on the food chain. Other than her jealousy, she seems to be just enacting his will. And again, we've seen him manipulate her mind on screen. That aside, I understand if you believe that David's character arc was handled poorly, or if you are simply not enjoying not being able to easily root for either side of the conflict.
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Jul 5, 2019 14:59
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does anyone else feel like Lenny doesn't behave like the Lenny from season 2?
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Jul 5, 2019 15:51
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double nine posted:does anyone else feel like Lenny doesn't behave like the Lenny from season 2?
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Jul 5, 2019 15:58
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I'm thinking more that David 'tweaked' her personality so she fit more into what he thinks she's like - meaning she's partially 'based' on when she was a mask for the Shadow King in season 1. too far-fetched?
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Jul 5, 2019 16:00
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double nine posted:I'm thinking more that David 'tweaked' her personality so she fit more into what he thinks she's like - meaning she's partially 'based' on when she was a mask for the Shadow King in season 1. I mean, in reality, and sans-psychic nonsense, we're all constantly influencing one another in subconscious ways. David's power might just amp that up in an extreme way. Ersatz fucked around with this message at 16:07 on Jul 5, 2019 |
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Jul 5, 2019 16:04
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double nine posted:does anyone else feel like Lenny doesn't behave like the Lenny from season 2? It’s hard to tell what Lenny was in the first half of season 2. What remained of the person who died in season 1 episode 1? What was Farouk’s creation, based on David’s perception of Lenny while both were patients in Clockworks? And what was Lenny in the second half of season 2? I think even Lenny didn’t know, because David’s sister was still a presence. Lenny in season 3 feels like a lot like the glimpses of Clockworks Lenny, we saw in season 1. Except this time there is no one trying to “cure” her. Outside of the eyes, David’s sister seems gone. And I don’t think that David has changed her, she is allowed to be who she wants to be. Mierenneuker fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Jul 5, 2019 |
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Jul 5, 2019 16:07
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Lenny in season three is a mix of three people. Benny the guy that young David used to hang out with to do drugs and Lenny from the hospital, they were mixed into one person and more or less tortured by Farouk. Then they were inserted into the body of Amy, so the person calling themselves Lenny really isn’t Lenny.
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Jul 5, 2019 16:22
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Mierenneuker posted:And I don’t think that David has changed her, she is allowed to be who she wants to be. Given what we saw of David's casual psychic commands to go get something to eat and be happy, I'm not sure she's just allowed to be whatever she wants to be at this point. Or maybe she is until it's at all inconvenient to David, like that scene.
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Jul 5, 2019 16:25
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Lenny has some level of control over David because she's an enabler.
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Jul 5, 2019 18:04
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glitchwraith posted:You keep saying this, but I'm not seeing it at all. Why do you think Lenny is manipulating David? So far, she's been behaving as just another of his goons, albeit the highest on the food chain. Other than her jealousy, she seems to be just enacting his will. And again, we've seen him manipulate her mind on screen. twistedmentat posted:Lenny has some level of control over David because she's an enabler. Corte posted:So I went back and watched a few parts of season 2 to get a better handle on the discussion. Something I think that isn't being discussed or noted is that David did not think he was raping Syd. I'm not saying this justifies or excuses his actions. Reviewing the scene where he uses his powers on Syd my interpretation is that he removed her memories of her interactions with Melanie that he believed was manipulation from Farouk causing her to turn on him. It's possible I'm mistaken and David's psychic manipulation went further. Assuming this he believed he was just reverting her back to the "real Syd" before she was twisted by the Shadow King. I guess I'm just trying to point out that perhaps intention should matter when considering the subject. I'm just kinda glad this thread is cool enough to know nobody here is literally defending sexual assault, we're analyzing why this show went off the rails. Comment sections of other discussion sites? Not so much. DaveKap fucked around with this message at 08:25 on Jul 6, 2019 |
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Jul 6, 2019 08:22
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DaveKap posted:That's exactly what I feel like they're just never going to go back and reconcile. The way I perceived it, he was reversing brainwashing. That's how he perceived it as well. The fact nobody else in the show perceives it that way is what bugs me most and nobody is going to probably ever talk about it because sexual assault is such an awful piece of subject matter to use as a plot point, especially if it's a question of whether it actually happened or if it's literally a brainwasher's lie. If it happened, that's hosed up. If it's a brainwasher manipulating someone into thinking it's what happened, that's hosed up. It's awful either way. I bet it seemed real interesting in the writer's room but it massively fucks up conversations about anyone's intentions in this show. Yeah, I feel like this part of the story line is such a blunt instrument that it kills some of the more interesting and subtle parts of David's problems and the reason why what he's doing is wrong. He's now in a place where he believes manipulating people's minds is fine as long as he thinks he's doing the right thing and he seems incapable of understanding the idea that you should have someone's consent before doing that. The story line with Syd is a really obvious example of it, but it's so glaring that it becomes the only thing anyone can see. It feels like the writers thought they needed a really clear illustration of the reason David is bad, but I feel like it could have been better if it was more subtle.
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Jul 6, 2019 11:19
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DaveKap posted:That's exactly what I feel like they're just never going to go back and reconcile. The way I perceived it, he was reversing brainwashing. That's how he perceived it as well. The fact nobody else in the show perceives it that way is what bugs me most and nobody is going to probably ever talk about it because sexual assault is such an awful piece of subject matter to use as a plot point, especially if it's a question of whether it actually happened or if it's literally a brainwasher's lie. If it happened, that's hosed up. If it's a brainwasher manipulating someone into thinking it's what happened, that's hosed up. It's awful either way. I bet it seemed real interesting in the writer's room but it massively fucks up conversations about anyone's intentions in this show. Personally I don't think Farouk brainwashed Syd in the strictest sense of the word, meaning he didn't psychically manipulate her. Reflecting on it I think one of the main goals of the Shadow King in season 2 was to push David into crossing the line he did. There is the scene where Farouk states that he and David are gods able to create or shape the reality they live in. To Farouk everything is permitted because he is superior to everyone else and he wanted to get David on the same page. Assuming that we do get some progression throughout the season of David being willing to compromise his morals or beliefs for a greater goal, ends justifying the means. Where it gets confusing or messy is that it all started because of him being abducted for a year and manipulated by Future Syd... My hope is that it doesn't end up that she is from the same timeline because if she is then I can't really make sense of it. Levin fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Jul 6, 2019 |
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Jul 6, 2019 16:51
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Corte posted:Personally I don't think Farouk brainwashed Syd in the strictest sense of the word, meaning he didn't psychically manipulate her. At least they're being more obvious now with David that he'll boop someone on the nose to make them happy and agreeable, so there's no question he sucks now.
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Jul 7, 2019 08:19
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ambiguity is good actually
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Jul 7, 2019 11:43
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Good argument. So now that I'm done being a whiny rear end, there's something I have to really say is absolutely outstanding with this series: ambient music. I can't remember the last time I was trying to find the OST to a TV show purely for its ambient music and not for the (rather good) licensed remixes. Maybe Mr. Robot season 1? Anyway, Switch's theme in Ep 1 was awesome and I hope we get to have some more of that before the season ends.
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Jul 7, 2019 23:36
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If this Switch character is supposed to be important to the season it would've been a really good idea to get an actual non-embarrassing actress for the role. Especially if they're supposed to be able to speak Japanese in a non-stilted/broken way. Every scene she's in is painful (like my posting).
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Jul 8, 2019 13:52
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She's an artist and author for Marvel, I believe, so it's great advertising for them. And they can probably get away with paying her less.
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Jul 8, 2019 14:00
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I can understand stilted Japanese being an issue for someone who speaks the language (I'm often taken out of a scene by bad Mandarin, e.g., Mr. Robot), but that aside I have no complaints about Switch's actress. I thought she was engaging as a sort of everyperson encountering insanity in episode 1, despite her status as time traveler. Ersatz fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Jul 8, 2019 |
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Jul 8, 2019 15:00
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Ersatz posted:
It's true, my dad was also the tv
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Jul 8, 2019 15:27
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Chubby Henparty posted:It's true, my dad was also the tv
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Jul 8, 2019 15:40
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Nah, I agree with you, but her butler/weird robo dad etc were pure Legion. It was just one line but I hope they were implying that her string of perfect grades resulted from pure cheating. That's the kind of groundedness I want to see.
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Jul 8, 2019 15:51
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Chubby Henparty posted:It was just one line but I hope they were implying that her string of perfect grades resulted from pure cheating. That's what's I took away from it. I mean, if you're an obedient daddy's princess, what else are you going to do with time travel? However, it does remind me of one thing - who is making the time travel tapes for her?
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Jul 8, 2019 15:56
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Ersatz posted:She's the sanest character on the show, and she finds herself in some pretty extraordinary circumstances. Did you find it difficult to identify with her? I wouldn't say she's normal. She's got a borderline schizophrenic thing going on with her robot drama. Though I don't doubt that someone who used timetravel to fulfil her father's wishes would lack a sense of selfhood. Also, I reckon that she's definitely related to the general from last season. Joining up with the Forces of Multiplication is just another way of rebelling against her dad. No wonder she sees something in David, they've got shared Daddy Issues.
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Jul 8, 2019 16:15
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Open Source Idiom posted:I wouldn't say she's normal. She's got a borderline schizophrenic thing going on with her robot drama. Though I don't doubt that someone who used timetravel to fulfil her father's wishes would lack a sense of selfhood. As for the robots, I don't think that she meant it literally when she told Farouk that she's helping David because David is a man and Farouk is a robot. I took it as her way of telling Farouk that he's a soulless monster, and David, despite his many and obvious flaws, is not. Daddy issues? Definitely.
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Jul 8, 2019 16:25
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Ersatz posted:Borderline personality disorder and schizophrenia are different conditions. She's definitely not borderline. I think they were using borderline to mean she is bordering on schizophrenia. I'm not agreeing with the diagnosis just clarifying. Excited for today's episode, I'm hoping we get to know more about Switch and her motivations as I'm worried about her just being used as a plot device.
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Jul 8, 2019 17:13
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Oh man, are we getting Xavier vs. Shadow King here? That would rule.
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Jul 9, 2019 03:08
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oh god they're doing the "david meddling with his own past drove his mother crazy" thing aren't they
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Jul 9, 2019 03:22
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eke out posted:oh god they're doing the "david meddling with his own past drove his mother crazy" thing aren't they It seems like maybe Farouk took over his mother?
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Jul 9, 2019 03:35
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I only associate She's a Rainbow with Apple. And seeing that drat doll with baby David is disturbing howe_sam fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Jul 9, 2019 |
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Jul 9, 2019 03:40
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She called him "my boy" just like the Shadow King does.
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Jul 9, 2019 03:43
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So his father was a powerful psychic, his mother was someone with a history of mental illness, and david inherited both halves of that cocktail.
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Jul 9, 2019 03:47
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I kind of feel like Farouk had some influence over Gabrielle. And him calling David "my beautiful boy" just like she did has to mean something. Maybe he actually does see David as his son and wants him to live? It would make sense since when he found out Syd killed him before they time traveled, he tried to talk her out of going again.
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Jul 9, 2019 04:18
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Was that Switch’s dad telling her to go to sleep in the tv?
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Jul 9, 2019 04:39
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Maybe Gabrielle is David's first alter. Farouk uses her as a key to get into David. Farouk fights her for control and wins. Farouk makes David's mom look like the Angriest Boy inside his head. Angry Boy visions are his mom trying to protect him from Farouk.
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Jul 9, 2019 04:58
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The big house is all a mental construct/inside Gabrielle's mind, right? That was the distinct impression I got, but baby David actually being there for Farouk to possess complicates that. In the real world did she have a baby in the mental hospital and then go catatonic again after the events of this episode, leading Xavier to give David up? I'm very confused.
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Jul 9, 2019 05:09
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No, I'm pretty sure it all happened. I missed why she was in the institution in the first place. Xavier goes because he's traumatized at using his powers to have someone kill themselves. But it seemed like she was under the Shadow King's influence a little while there. They then leave and have a kid and then Xavier builds Cerebro, finds the Shadow King and goes to meet him. He eventually confronts and kills the body and expels his mind. That goes to the Haller household to attach itself to David. The real question is when did the Shadow King start to influence the house.
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Jul 9, 2019 05:28
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