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Who do you wish to win the Democratic primaries? This poll is closed. |
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| Joe Biden, the Inappropriate Toucher |
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18 | 1.46% |
| Bernie Sanders, the Hand Flailer |
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665 | 54.11% |
| Elizabeth Warren, the Plan Maker |
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319 | 25.96% |
| Kamala Harris, the Cop Lord |
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26 | 2.12% |
| Cory Booker, the Super Hero Wannabe |
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5 | 0.41% |
| Julian Castro, the Twin |
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5 | 0.41% |
| Kirsten Gillibrand, the Franken Killer |
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5 | 0.41% |
| Pete Buttigieg, the Troop Sociopath |
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17 | 1.38% |
| Robert Francis O'Rourke, the Fake Latino |
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3 | 0.24% |
| Jay Inslee, the Climate Alarmist |
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8 | 0.65% |
| Marianne Williamson, the Crystal Queen |
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86 | 7.00% |
| Tulsi Gabbard, the Muslim Hater |
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23 | 1.87% |
| Andrew Yang, the $1000 Fool |
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32 | 2.60% |
| Eric Swalwell, the Insurance Wife Guy |
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2 | 0.16% |
| Amy Klobuchar, the Comb Enthusiast |
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1 | 0.08% |
| Bill de Blasio, the NYPD Most Hated |
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4 | 0.33% |
| Tim Ryan, the Dope Face |
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3 | 0.24% |
| John Hickenlooper, the Also Ran |
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7 | 0.57% |
| Total: | 1229 votes | ||
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Iamgoofball posted:hey can i ask why y'all are playing right into the GOP's hands by sticking to the issue they very specifically exploited to cause division within the ranks here on the left? like, come on, it's obvious Lmao. Just like Clinton's emails wouldn't be a real issue during the election. Are you dumb as hell dude, the fact that even many libs on these ded gay forums find it problematic that Warren lied about her heritage, indicates that it will be a huge albatross around her neck for regular voters.
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Jul 9, 2019 17:57
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Iamgoofball posted:hey can i ask why y'all are playing right into the GOP's hands by sticking to the issue they very specifically exploited to cause division within the ranks here on the left? like, come on, it's obvious It's a load of corroborating evidence, prime quotes, and validated research. And it speaks loudly to her character, showing that at best she had tremendously poor judgement. But she's one of my faves, so it's a hitpiece, and we should ignore it until the debates when Trump will destroy her.
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Jul 9, 2019 18:00
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Eiba posted:
Hillary actually won the primary, that did not make her the best candidate for President!
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Jul 9, 2019 18:01
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Iamgoofball posted:hey can i ask why y'all are playing right into the GOP's hands by sticking to the issue they very specifically exploited to cause division within the ranks here on the left? like, come on, it's obvious Yeah, I'm sure that if we shitposters on these dead comedy forums all ignore objective reality the GOP will do so as well. That's why we have President Clinton right now. Eiba posted:So this is kind of a local issue, but I got some insight into how this cuts both ways recently. Unfortunately this is irrelevant. Those republicans are going to go to the polls and vote Trump no matter what he does. Eiba posted:The obvious reason to support her over Sanders is a belief that she has a better shot. Specifically, Sanders style and appeal is well known at this point and it hasn't even gripped as many people as it did in 2016 when he was both the idealistically superior choice and the only "I hate Clinton" choice. Former Hillfolk with a chip on their shoulder are completely irrelevant because they all live in states that vote blue anyway. Also the rest of this is unfounded speculation, so why exactly should we be convinced that Warren would be more "electable" just on your say-so?
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Jul 9, 2019 18:02
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ok warren could theoretically get democrats to vote for her but bernie consistently polls with a much bigger margin against trump than her
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Jul 9, 2019 18:03
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Eiba posted:So this is kind of a local issue, but I got some insight into how this cuts both ways recently. You're framing this as if Warren isn't still claiming she has Native American Heritage. But this is her website:  So either its OK for her to keep saying she has Native American Heritage (and if so why was it wrong for Harvard to call her a WoC?) or she hasn't learned from the backlash.
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Jul 9, 2019 18:04
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Iamgoofball posted:hey can i ask why y'all are playing right into the GOP's hands by sticking to the issue they very specifically exploited to cause division within the ranks here on the left? like, come on, it's obvious because people itt love politics as an aesthetic, but the aesthetic isn't fun anymore when you admit that the democrats are offering a toilet fire up and down the ticket like, the absolute best candidate is someone who should be on trial for war crimes (just like everyone else who voted for the 9/11 aumf), and he's only survived as long as he has because he has never represented a genuine threat to the party institute. the moment the party thinks he has a serious chance of winning the primary is the moment he gets asked a question at a primary debate like "harris very vocally attacked joe biden for being against busing, but you were also against busing. your reason for not wanting schools integrated was that people can't trust the government, which seems strange given you're a socialist and are fighting against alternatives to public schooling like charter schools" if people start admitting the candidates produced by the system are poo poo garbage for idiot babies, they might start questioning the system, and that leads to the rending of garments and other whatnots. far easier to ignore all that and just argue about trivial bullshit as if warren's ancestry is going to be a more substantial reason she's not going to win than the fact that she somehow manages to debate worse than hillary
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Jul 9, 2019 18:05
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this is something people should have learned after the 2016 election but "popular among democrats" does not necessarily mean "popular among general election voters"
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Jul 9, 2019 18:05
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Shear Modulus posted:this is something people should have learned after the 2016 election but "popular among democrats" does not necessarily mean "popular among general election voters" we're not allowed to talk about the general election in this thread lol
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Jul 9, 2019 18:07
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Eiba posted:Evidence of hardcore Sanders supporters throwing shade in this thread aside, I think Warren can appeal to people who want things like Medicare for All, a wealth tax, and to break up tech giants, same as Sanders can, but she can also appeal to former Clinton voters and others who are put off by Sanders style. A pragmatic Biden supporter or an identity-focused Harris supporter are more likely to be won over by Warren than Sanders. Except she will literally not even attempt to do any of these things. Everything you said in your post is a really good reason to still support her -if- she wins the primary. Not before. If you actually want any of the things that I just quoted, then there is literally no reason for her to be your first pick for the primary lmao. Also the demographic of "pragmatic Biden supporter or an identity-focused Harris supporter" who won't vote for a ~socialist~ in the general is loving tiny and trying to please this party's right wing is why we don't have a functional healthcare system or literally any social safety net to begin with. mormonpartyboat posted:because people itt love politics as an aesthetic, but the aesthetic isn't fun anymore when you admit that the democrats are offering a toilet fire up and down the ticket Nah, it's still fun so long as you're relatively rich and have zero stake in the game. You just try to look better among your similarly minded friends/family by smoothing over the rough edges with "but that was a different time", "they've grown since then", or "they were actually working from within the system to dismantle it!". Rich libs have always done this. Marxalot fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Jul 9, 2019 |
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Jul 9, 2019 18:08
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mormonpartyboat posted:like, the absolute best candidate is someone who should be on trial for war crimes (just like everyone else who voted for the 9/11 aumf), and he's only survived as long as he has because he has never represented a genuine threat to the party institute. the moment the party thinks he has a serious chance of winning the primary is the moment he gets asked a question at a primary debate like "harris very vocally attacked joe biden for being against busing, but you were also against busing. your reason for not wanting schools integrated was that people can't trust the government, which seems strange given you're a socialist and are fighting against alternatives to public schooling like charter schools" That would be an easy question to answer because Bernie could just talk about his robust school integration plan and say the federal government has to take the lead on integration while condemning working with segregationists. The answer to the dumb Tucker Carlson quality "but he himself is made of government  " gotcha is pretty simple: the government doesn't give a poo poo about black people, that's why he's running because he wants to change that.
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Jul 9, 2019 18:11
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VitalSigns posted:"I think Warren will win the primary" is not actually a reason to support her in the primary as the best candidate for President. So I'm more worried about making sure Biden or Harris don't win. I think both Warren and Sanders are great candidates who will do pretty much the same good things if they get into office. I think both of them will have some weaknesses in the general election, and I couldn't say which one was more likely to win against Trump. I think Warren can more effectively oppose Biden and take the wind out of Harris's sails than Sanders can, and that's the point I'm most worried about. I really think Biden or Harris winning is the most likely obstacle to getting actual good policies out of a president. Cerebral Bore posted:Former Hillfolk with a chip on their shoulder are completely irrelevant because they all live in states that vote blue anyway. Also the rest of this is unfounded speculation, so why exactly should we be convinced that Warren would be more "electable" just on your say-so? "Former Hillfolk" can keep Sanders from winning the primary and give it to Biden or Harris. This will keep Sanders from being president as effectively as losing to Trump.
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Jul 9, 2019 18:18
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Eiba posted:I think basically anyone can beat Trump if they don't suck as bad as Clinton... and I think even Clinton could probably have a good shot if she tried again. Trump is, despite his incumbency, incredibly unpopular. I don't think anyone has a particularly bad chance against Trump. The part of this quote that I emphasized is absolutely not true. There are a lot of good things that a Warren presidency would do, but she is really obviously on the same (horrific) page as the rest of the mainstream Democrats when it comes to foreign policy, which is one of the areas where the president has the most authority.
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Jul 9, 2019 18:21
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MrFlibble posted:Such a strange phenomenon, to see people talking about Bernie and another candidate and acting like they're the same for all intents and purposes. Gives me a sense of...well it's kind of like Deja Vu but sort of, nostalgic? Huh
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Jul 9, 2019 18:23
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The Glumslinger posted:Lol, did people not have taste buds in the 70s? white people are incapable of tasting food unless its bland and/or coated in butter
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Jul 9, 2019 18:26
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Eiba posted:I think basically anyone can beat Trump if they don't suck as bad as Clinton... That's an opinion that's not backed up by polling. Considering that with the electoral college a Democrat would need to do better than 50% on national polls, as it stands Warren, Buttigieg, and Harris all lose to Trump. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/general_election/ Now you can assume that candidate X will start doing better in the future, but that's different.
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Jul 9, 2019 18:26
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VitalSigns posted:That would be an easy question to answer because Bernie could just talk about his robust school integration plan and say the federal government has to take the lead on integration while condemning working with segregationists. thats neither how debates nor bernie work the only real way to "easily" answer the question is if he could somehow navigate the complexities of systemic racism during the segregation era - something that america has shown itself completely and categorically unable and unwilling to do - and also the issues of school choice and also explain his general stance relating to how and when government should intervene in the private life. and he has to do all that in his first dozen words, since that's how long people's attention spans are bernie is prolix as gently caress. he can't do that. he simply does not operate off catchphrases, which are necessary to drag the idiot voting body around VitalSigns posted:the government doesn't give a poo poo about black people, that's why he's running because he wants to change that. this is just asking to be garroted on stage worse than biden. all the average person knows is that busing integrated schools, and to them all that answer sounds like is that he sided with segregationists against integration because of ~reasons~. as loving awkward as it was to watch biden go uhhhhhh my time is up sorry i cant answer, it was probably the "best" answer to give because there really isn't a winning move against that question you'd figure after hillary people would stop believing anyone on the loving planet will go to his website to read a 30 page policy paper explaining the actual problems of the segregationist era. even biden figured that out and just mumbled a bunch of conflicting poo poo all over the place to avoid giving anyone anything to look at
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Jul 9, 2019 18:32
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during the last primary there was a lot of "they vote the same way 95 (or whatever) percent of the time!" from clinton supporters.
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Jul 9, 2019 18:34
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The reason why Biden has trouble with the busing issue is that he still defends his garbage opinion to this day. If it ever comes up, Bernie could just say that he changed his mind and that's that.
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Jul 9, 2019 18:35
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Rule of thumb - if Trump has a snappy nickname for you, your electoral hopes are done, dead in the water, finished. That being said - Pocahontas
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Jul 9, 2019 18:36
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mormonpartyboat posted:
The average American has no idea what busing is and would oppose it if they learned what it is because they are racist.
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Jul 9, 2019 18:41
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vivazomo posted:The average American has no idea what busing is and would oppose it if they learned what it is because they are racist. i think this explains harris trying to thread the needle on favoring it back then but not liking the idea of it now because rich dem donors would pitch a fit if the idea were floated of integrating today's schools
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Jul 9, 2019 18:44
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It *is* pretty funny watching the liberal candidates shame Biden for his (reprehensible, racist) sticking to his guns on bussing. Because obviously if an administration tried to restart those programs it would rip the country in half and doom the Democratic party for a generation. White people suck rear end.
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Jul 9, 2019 18:52
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Iamgoofball posted:hey can i ask why y'all are playing right into the GOP's hands by sticking to the issue they very specifically exploited to cause division within the ranks here on the left? like, come on, it's obvious Maybe people have genuine personal opinions on issues relating to minority identity, as well as the way in which whites tend to co-opt elements of that identity for their own satisfaction while leaving the actual holders of those identities in the dust? Maybe people genuinely don't like Warren's snubs of the Native American community - not because "it matters" or because they think it's a decisive issue in the election, but because they are personally unhappy with her stances, actions, and positions? Yes, the issue is being exploited to cause division in the ranks. That's because it's a real issue that really does cause division in the ranks. It'd be silly for the enemy to ignore it - but it'd also be silly for us to dismiss it solely because the enemy is repeating it too.
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Jul 9, 2019 18:54
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Eiba posted:The obvious reason to support her over Sanders is a belief that she has a better shot. Specifically, Sanders style and appeal is well known at this point and it hasn't even gripped as many people as it did in 2016 when he was both the idealistically superior choice and the only "I hate Clinton" choice. There is nowhere near the level of compelling evidence necessary that this is true to offset the actual tangible differences between the candidates. If Warren were polling significantly better than Sanders among general election voters (and I'm guessing you mean "better shot in the general election" since that's the only way this makes sense) you might have some sort of point, but she isn't. You're basically making the choice to value a completely evidence-free gut feeling - that in this case actually runs contrary to existing evidence! - that she will perform better in the general election over the real differences between the candidates. This doesn't make sense (unless you don't care about the differences, anyways)! Especially in light of the fact that Warren has already demonstrated poor decision-making in response to Trump/Republican taunts. It is transparently obvious that you're retroactively trying to come up with some logic to justify supporting the candidate you like. There's no actual data/evidence that would lead someone to look at these two candidates and independently conclude "hm I like this Sanders guy, but Warren clearly has a much better shot against Trump" (and there's actually some pretty good reasons to assume the opposite, like her DNA testing stuff or the bizarre "Facts" part of her website). edit: Even if you ignore all of this, "electability" should never drive your choice of who to support in the primary (unless it's a situation where the best candidate has no realistic chance of winning the primary itself and an acceptable second is doing far better, which isn't the case here). There is no reliable way to judge how electable someone is, so in practice "electability" arguments are really just attempts to retroactively rationalize someone simply subjectively liking a particular candidate. In the case of Warren, what's really happening is that people, for various cultural and/or socioeconomic reasons, perceive Warren as being more intelligent and likable than Sanders, but they realize that this doesn't make for a very persuasive argument and go searching for something that sounds "objective" (and the conclusion they arrive at is electability arguments). Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Jul 9, 2019 |
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Jul 9, 2019 18:55
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Are there any ways to integrate schools other than busing
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Jul 9, 2019 18:58
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vivazomo posted:The average American has no idea what busing is and would oppose it if they learned what it is because they are racist. which is exactly why anyone hoping to appeal to the ~better nature of american voters~ should be flung bodily into the sun Shear Modulus posted:i think this explains harris trying to thread the needle on favoring it back then but not liking the idea of it now because rich dem donors would pitch a fit if the idea were floated of integrating today's schools she didn't 'thread the needle', she just knew that barely anybody would do any investigating, and nobody was going to give a poo poo about what little investigation was going to happen. the point wasn't to argue policy, it was to make biden look bad and herself look good, and she succeeded. she's a prosecutor, working roomfuls of idiots to vote based off emotions instead of facts is her bread and butter
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Jul 9, 2019 18:58
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Emerson, which has been a friendly poll to Bernie, now shows him behind in the young vote: https://twitter.com/EmersonPolling/status/1148570990441463813?s=19
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Jul 9, 2019 18:59
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Are there any ways to integrate schools other than busing decoupling housing from the marketplace so that realtors and banks are no longer capable of refusing to show nonwhites houses in white neighborhoods or loan them money because neither will exist would be a good start
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Jul 9, 2019 18:59
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Are there any ways to integrate schools other than busing American cities are heavily segregated to begin with, so the geography of the schools themselves is already against you. Busing is the simplest and most direct choice.
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Jul 9, 2019 19:02
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Groovelord Neato posted:during the last primary there was a lot of "they vote the same way 95 (or whatever) percent of the time!" from clinton supporters. I was quoting myself dude, because it keeps happening.
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Jul 9, 2019 19:02
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Are there any ways to integrate schools other than busing End school districts for starts.
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Jul 9, 2019 19:03
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Trabisnikof posted:End school districts for starts. What do you mean / hope to accomplish by this?
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Jul 9, 2019 19:04
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mormonpartyboat posted:she didn't 'thread the needle', she just knew that barely anybody would do any investigating, and nobody was going to give a poo poo about what little investigation was going to happen. the point wasn't to argue policy, it was to make biden look bad and herself look good, and she succeeded. don't forget trying to make some quick cash https://store.kamalaharris.org/that-little-girl-was-me/
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Jul 9, 2019 19:05
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MrFlibble posted:I was quoting myself dude, because it keeps happening. my bad! How are u posted:What do you mean / hope to accomplish by this? school districts are separate governments unto themselves with the power of taxation. if you eliminated the district system you could have a more equitable share of the taxes instead of rich people having incredible public schools while poor folk have lovely schools. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Jul 9, 2019 |
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Jul 9, 2019 19:06
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How are u posted:What do you mean / hope to accomplish by this? In the US the school district is one of the prime methods of class and race segregation. So if we're not going to physically move kids around, then breaking down the barriers between districts is the next best thing.
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Jul 9, 2019 19:08
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The Muppets On PCP posted:the point about warren's dumb 23 and me goof isn't that she lied about being part cherokee it's that she's easily bullied by trump EVERYONE's easily bullied by trump, it is literally his entire gimmick, you cannot clap back at him as he is physically incapable of knowing when he has been clapped back at as a world in which he is wrong or bad does not exist to him if bernie hits the stage, it's going to be "old, cripple, back problems, waves his hands around, communist, nazi, old, old, cripple, back problems" repeat ad infinium if warren hits the stage, it's going to be "woman, hysterical, pocahontas, liberal, demon-rat, woman, hysterical, pocahontas" repeat ad infinium you should not be going "but can they stand up to bullying by trump!?!?!?" because if they're running for election against trump, they're expecting to get bullied by trump and have already planned for it there's no point in doing it ahead of time when doing it ahead of time won't actually tackle anything, especially considering the fact that the people who keep up on this poo poo already aren't dumb enough to vote for trump just because she did a dumb thing with an ancestry.com test result thing or whatever Main Paineframe posted:Maybe people have genuine personal opinions on issues relating to minority identity, as well as the way in which whites tend to co-opt elements of that identity for their own satisfaction while leaving the actual holders of those identities in the dust? Maybe people genuinely don't like Warren's snubs of the Native American community - not because "it matters" or because they think it's a decisive issue in the election, but because they are personally unhappy with her stances, actions, and positions? i get that, and it's definitely a good thing to keep on top of because racism and appropriation is bad for obvious loving reasons, but the left eating itself over it is counter-productive, especially when it's pretty clearly in the GOP's best interests for us to eat ourselves over it definitely tackle it, but i think that whether warren thinks ancestry.com results are legit is an issue better solved when the threat of a 2-term trump presidency is eliminated we've got capitalism to kill, let's not get caught up on the details that we let it escape one more time when we can iron out those same details later after trump's been blown the gently caress out
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Jul 9, 2019 19:08
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Are there any ways to integrate schools other than busing yes, but this again gets into the complexity of what actually happened back in the day like, think of it this way: brown v board of education was interpreted by pretty much everybody outside of the courts as requiring desegregation in schools, but not requiring integration. but in practice, the problem wasn't so much that the schools were segregated as society was segregated. black people had their neighborhoods and white people had their neighborhoods and they mostly only interacted when white people decided to mass murder black people and burn down those neighborhoods. a bunch of centrists zeroed in on busing because it was a way to do the absolute barest minimum (forcing so many black and white kids to go to the same school) without addressing the actual social systemic racism issues. they don't need to think about redlining, or racist policing, or the kkk, or pissing off the moderate whites who think racism is distasteful but will just fade away naturally over time. the good fast solutions would sound like things out of the reconstructionist era (40 acres etc) where reparations for slavery are paid and the government buys underutilized housing and provides it as part of those reparations and massive funding programs are provided for black neighborhoods and active steps are taken to ensure that discrimination is fought against at every level of society (especially things like loans). they could have done poo poo like given every black person access to the GI bill like WW2 vets, which would have been pretty appropriate since black people were absolutely denied access to the plenty that was offered to white vets once society is integrated, you don't need to bus kids anywhere. and yea it'd upset a bunch of centrist white folk but they're always upset and never do anything about it anyway so gently caress 'em
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Jul 9, 2019 19:09
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you couldn't even do busing anymore because americans are more segregated than ever.
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Jul 9, 2019 19:11
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like poo poo last time i popped in this thread there was a guy unironically calling for us to vote for trump if bernie didn't get the nomination, like wtf man
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Jul 9, 2019 19:14
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