|
potatocubed posted:DC was talking about RPG theory -- I can't remember exactly what because I didn't care -- and Harper rolled in with eyeroll.gif to say it had all been done before. DC said 'uh, no?' and Harper went off with a very 'sit down and shut up, your elders are talking' line which went down about as well as you'd expect. Dungeon Commander looks to try and start fights with everyone, it seems. They've got a huge chip on his block about "well I'm a black person and none of the rest of you measure up because white privilege," which is really offputting.
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2019 18:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 11:19 |
|
|
anyone who can be made to melt down by rolling one's eyes, should be
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2019 18:58
|
|
|
Red Metal posted:Context for the John Harper/DungeonCommandr thing
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2019 19:00
|
|
|
Arivia posted:Dungeon Commander looks to try and start fights with everyone, it seems. They've got a huge chip on his block about "well I'm a black person and none of the rest of you measure up because white privilege," which is really offputting. Speaking of bad looks.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2019 19:00
|
|
|
slap me and kiss me posted:Speaking of bad looks. Yes, yes, tone policing and all that. I'm familiar with minority politics. I'm not talking about their opinions on inclusivity or racism or oppression in the industry. I keep seeing tweets by them like "none of you know how to write/design/play as well as me." There's an incredibly offputting swaggering overconfidence to their discussions about anything when it comes to RPGs, not just racialized issues.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2019 19:02
|
|
|
Everyone on the internet should post with the confidence of a mediocre white man.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2019 19:10
|
|
|
slap me and kiss me posted:Everyone on the internet should post with the confidence of a mediocre white man. I don't think I can be that confident.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2019 19:29
|
|
|
Stop trying to hit me and hit me.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2019 19:33
|
|
|
Arivia posted:Yes, yes, tone policing and all that. I'm familiar with minority politics. I'm not talking about their opinions on inclusivity or racism or oppression in the industry. I keep seeing tweets by them like "none of you know how to write/design/play as well as me." There's an incredibly offputting swaggering overconfidence to their discussions about anything when it comes to RPGs, not just racialized issues. I don't know where you're getting this. They project a lot of confidence because they know that projecting confidence is a big part of being successful, and it's something that minorities tend to be bad at. They're also a huge booster of both other minority voices and experienced voices in the industry, when they're doing good. Look at any of DC's posts about Sean Nittner/Big Bad Con, for example. I would be interested to see an actual example of them saying "I'm the best at all of this." I'm not cancelling Harper over this (and tbh I'm more on his side as far as categorization goes) but it's definitely a bad look. admanb fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Jul 11, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2019 21:35
|
|
|
Also DC is one of the people behind the big push for minority writers to get a decent pay per word amount in the RPG industry and a lot white folks were like 'hey whoa I don't make that!' And DC's response is 'that's not my problem.'
Dawgstar fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Jul 11, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2019 22:33
|
|
|
Darius099 posted:I'm not sure how many people in here create professional or semi-professional content for RPG's but I've been getting more into that sphere lately and I've got a bunch of questions about mastering documents (thinking like... books, in digital form or otherwise - but specifically I am looking to create digital PDF's as my end goal), and don't have the right terminology to even describe correctly. So if anyone has experience with the process of creating, mastering, designing, polishing, etc I'd really love to pick your brain (briefly) via email, PM, or I guess I can awkwardly bumble through the process in the thread. I have this skill set, sort of. Shoot me a PM and I'll try to answer any questions you might have.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2019 22:42
|
|
|
Darius099 posted:I'm not sure how many people in here create professional or semi-professional content for RPG's but I've been getting more into that sphere lately and I've got a bunch of questions about mastering documents (thinking like... books, in digital form or otherwise - but specifically I am looking to create digital PDF's as my end goal), and don't have the right terminology to even describe correctly. So if anyone has experience with the process of creating, mastering, designing, polishing, etc I'd really love to pick your brain (briefly) via email, PM, or I guess I can awkwardly bumble through the process in the thread. I feel like the word you want is "layout"?
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2019 22:49
|
|
|
.
Austria felix nube fucked around with this message at 00:16 on May 25, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2019 23:07
|
|
|
Austria felix nube posted:What games has dungeon commander worked on? Probably want to avoid hitching your wagon to two people who climbed down and apologized for their behaviour, broheim.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2019 23:26
|
|
|
Austria felix nube posted:What games has dungeon commander worked on? Oh, don’t worry, as a result of this they’ve archived their big marquee game as Forged in the Dark is tainted for them now. There’s no chance of that humility-lacking arrogant designer getting your money now 
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2019 23:36
|
|
|
Austria felix nube posted:What games has dungeon commander worked on? A truly incredible job proving their whole point for a "I don't even know who this person is but I'm definitely never going to buy the products I already wasn't going to buy!" post. Just showed your entire rear end in one go.
|
|
#
?
Jul 11, 2019 23:53
|
|
|
.
Austria felix nube fucked around with this message at 00:15 on May 25, 2021 |
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 00:04
|
|
|
Austria felix nube posted:What games has dungeon commander worked on? John Harper is hardly the Wise Old Man of elfgames, he's had one big breakout game which is currently dealing with stretch goal mismanagement. That hardly qualifies him as someone deserving of reverence and if he rolled into a discussion of mine with that sort of attitude I'd tell him to go gently caress himself too, it was completely uncalled for and the fact that he's unreservedly apologizing because even he recognizes that what he did was dumb and lovely should maybe be a big neon-flashing sign for you to consider here. Warthur posted:Sounds like DungeonCommandr was trying to make a decent point too - the intimidation factor from big fat rulebooks is very much a thing, even with people who already play RPGs. How often do you hear the complaint "My group won't try game X because they don't want the work involved in learning the system"? If there's one really useful thing that indie RPGs have accomplished from the 2000s onwards, it's making RPGs which convey their core rules in a slim booklet a thing again. I will disagree with this point somewhat. I don't actually think rulebook size or complexity influences the decision to play a game as much as people assume it does. There was a big push in the 3.X D&D days for games with lighter systems, games that touted "our system fades into the background! It's super easy! It's rules light!," all that stuff, and it was kind of taken as a sort of received wisdom that all you needed was the perfect lightweight non-complex ultra condensed game and you'd have everyone who couldn't wrap their heads around "harder" systems in bigger books beating a path to your door. Ultimately, while there's no real data for anything anywhere in the hobby, none of these efforts really seem to have demonstrated the massive demand for lightweight RPGs lurking in the wings and most people still just seem to play D&D, which is not what I would describe as the least complex game in existence. I feel like "I don't want to have to learn a new system" is often given as a reason for not wanting to play other games but I feel like it's not really the crux of the reason.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 00:17
|
|
|
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-07-08/how-to-be-a-professional-dungeons-dragons-master-hosting-games Interesting to see the DnD #s from WotC.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 00:25
|
|
|
Kai Tave posted:John Harper is hardly the Wise Old Man of elfgames, he's had one big breakout game which is currently dealing with stretch goal mismanagement. That hardly qualifies him as someone deserving of reverence and if he rolled into a discussion of mine with that sort of attitude I'd tell him to go gently caress himself too, it was completely uncalled for and the fact that he's unreservedly apologizing because even he recognizes that what he did was dumb and lovely should maybe be a big neon-flashing sign for you to consider here. It's also completely proving DC's point about the harm that John Harper can do just by being well-known. Even after Harper completely admits to wrongdoing there are people who are going to cancel a creator who, by their very birth, is on the margins of being able to survive, entirely for the sin of not being willing to roll over and show their belly to a "Wise Old Man" who's being a shitheel. Kai Tave posted:I will disagree with this point somewhat. I don't actually think rulebook size or complexity influences the decision to play a game as much as people assume it does. There was a big push in the 3.X D&D days for games with lighter systems, games that touted "our system fades into the background! It's super easy! It's rules light!," all that stuff, and it was kind of taken as a sort of received wisdom that all you needed was the perfect lightweight non-complex ultra condensed game and you'd have everyone who couldn't wrap their heads around "harder" systems in bigger books beating a path to your door. Ultimately, while there's no real data for anything anywhere in the hobby, none of these efforts really seem to have demonstrated the massive demand for lightweight RPGs lurking in the wings and most people still just seem to play D&D, which is not what I would describe as the least complex game in existence. I feel like "I don't want to have to learn a new system" is often given as a reason for not wanting to play other games but I feel like it's not really the crux of the reason. Agreed, and I'll add that the people I run games for who don't read rulebooks don't read 150-page conversationally-written indie rulebooks just as well as they don't read 300-page OSR technical manuals. admanb fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Jul 12, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 00:43
|
|
|
Austria felix nube posted:No? It's not forbidden, but jumping to the side of the aggressors in a situation, especially well after both of them were like "poo poo, my bad, I'm so sorry" is pretty loving stupid.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 01:09
|
|
|
Austria felix nube posted:No? Yeah, but also it's not forbidden to call someone out on their bullshit lemme talk to your manager I never tip more than two dollars someone's being uppity attitude.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 01:20
|
|
|
admanb posted:I don't know where you're getting this. They project a lot of confidence because they know that projecting confidence is a big part of being successful, and it's something that minorities tend to be bad at. They're also a huge booster of both other minority voices and experienced voices in the industry, when they're doing good. Look at any of DC's posts about Sean Nittner/Big Bad Con, for example. I would be interested to see an actual example of them saying "I'm the best at all of this." I’m not going to go back through their tweets but I see it every time I see them on social media. That degree of masculine overconfidence is really offputting. They can have good content and representation all they like, I just dislike their swaggering big stick style and absolute unwillingness to compromise with others. E: Frankly I’m not really convinced that this random person out of nowhere is all that talented, which is why it’s offputting. Having an ENnie doesn’t really mean anything; any of John Harper/Avery Alder/Sage LaTorra look fat better to me than them. Arivia fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Jul 12, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 02:02
|
|
|
Arivia posted:I’m not going to go back through their tweets but I see it every time I see them on social media. That degree of masculine overconfidence is really offputting. They can have good content and representation all they like, I just dislike their swaggering big stick style and absolute unwillingness to compromise with others. Okay but like... I follow them on Twitter and have seen none of this, so as far as I'm aware you've made this up to support a preconceived notion based on the unfamiliarity of confidence and a lack of kow-towing from a non-white-male source. This is a person who has been mentored by both Avery Alder and John Harper, who collaborated with other designers on the project that won an ENnie, and who is constantly boosting other up-and-coming voices. You can't just say they're "unwilling to compromise" based on one public argument in which the other side admittedly to being unequivocally wrong. And your (or mine, or anyone's) assessment of their talent or lack thereof is utterly irrelevant.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 02:13
|
|
|
admanb posted:Okay but like... I follow them on Twitter and have seen none of this, so as far as I'm aware you've made this up to support a preconceived notion based on the unfamiliarity of confidence and a lack of kow-towing from a non-white-male source. No I’m saying this is a trend I’ve noticed from multiple times reading their posts. I find them pretty bad, so I don’t read their stuff except when it’s retweeted or something. I’m familiar with confidence; they are overconfident in archetypally masculine ways and it’s very offputting. And it’s exceptionally stupid of you to imply that my dislike of them and their posts in general is actually a racist or sexist feeling on my part. I have repeatedly pointed out that I’m not disagreeing with their efforts to create space for marginalized people. This is a stylistic issue, nothing more. Sure, it’s irrelevant. Just like everything else on these dead gay comedy forums. Relax. I’m not saying anything racist or transphobic; I’m saying I think they are a bad poster in general.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 02:22
|
|
|
It is a common dog-whistle to refer to black man as "overly aggressive" or "too masculine" or "overly confident," and when you use that kind of terminology to refer to non-binary person, it raises a lot of red flags, not gonna lie. As I'm sure you're aware, marginalized people get a significant amount of pushback, especially in this hobby, and so having a bit of extra swagger is a defensive mechanism against this systemic oppression. And I do want to point out that it is systemic oppression that is at work in this industry, especially against people of color. And again, DC (which is their real name, DungeonCommander is their twitter handle), does a lot of good work in fostering communities and can be a little defensive when established old guard (which is to say people with privilege and social capital) try to act like relative newcomers don't have anything of value to say. For the record, DC's ennie-winning game is Plot Armor, a single player journaling RPG about playing out a 32 episode season of a mecha anime.
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 04:55
|
|
|
Arivia complaining about anybody being overconfident and having a huge chip on their shoulder is peak irony. Thanks everyone, we can shut the forums down now, we've hit critical mass.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 05:33
|
|
|
John was being objectively the bigger rear end and his apology was warranted. I don't see how this needs to be litigated any further. Going back to that article I linked though, I forgot to mention the most galling bit being that the tweet description implied D&D was bringing LGBTQA+ representation to tabletop rpgs for the first time. It really makes you realize how many peoples' point of reference for tabletop rpgs is only and forever D&D. And usually just the edition you started on.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 06:15
|
|
|
Has WotC actually done anything besides bare minimum corporate activism type stuff like the rainbow logos and halfass fundraising? I mean I know the answer in my heart of hearts (and brain) but I mean really
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 07:04
|
|
Darwinism posted:Has WotC actually done anything besides bare minimum corporate activism type stuff like the rainbow logos and halfass fundraising? There has been some queer inclusion in the books themselves, but it is very bad
|
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 07:07
|
|
|
Meinberg posted:It is a common dog-whistle to refer to black man as "overly aggressive" or "too masculine" or "overly confident," and when you use that kind of terminology to refer to non-binary person, it raises a lot of red flags, not gonna lie. As I'm sure you're aware, marginalized people get a significant amount of pushback, especially in this hobby, and so having a bit of extra swagger is a defensive mechanism against this systemic oppression. And I do want to point out that it is systemic oppression that is at work in this industry, especially against people of color. quote:And again, DC (which is their real name, DungeonCommander is their twitter handle), does a lot of good work in fostering communities and can be a little defensive when established old guard (which is to say people with privilege and social capital) try to act like relative newcomers don't have anything of value to say. They seem to be very defensive about everything, which is exactly the problem. Seriously, if they could just tone it down a bit I wouldn’t be nearly as annoyed by them. E: It shows how overconfident DC is that no one is disputing that overconfidence, they’re just excusing it with “well, they do good work” or making intimations that I’m being racist. Arivia fucked around with this message at 10:35 on Jul 12, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 10:27
|
|
|
DCs conduct in DMs, the BabbleOn Discord and threads that don't get posted here to discuss blowups are usually pretty humble and community based. Also if you're gonna claim to be "aware of the politics of systemic oppression" you shouldn't be misgendering people when you Kramer into a discussion.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 11:09
|
|
|
Razorwired posted:DCs conduct in DMs, the BabbleOn Discord and threads that don't get posted here to discuss blowups are usually pretty humble and community based. I'm not? Actually, I originally used he in my very first post, checked their Twitter to be sure, then edited it when I realized I was wrong. And that's great if they're more humble privately; they might want to add more of that to their overall social media presence.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 11:12
|
|
|
I just said they post those types of threads all the time. It's just that "Hey QTPOC nerds drop your selfies!" Or "Let's post motivational thoughts for each other! Isn't really the kind of content that makes this thread. Which is why I'm wondering why youre posting "I know DungeonCommandr and they're always super arrogant!" When youre demonstrating that you know what gets posted and discussed here.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 11:21
|
|
|
Hey Arivia, your masculinizing of this nb person of color is hella uncomfortable, and to be honest I think the reason no one is talking about your accusations of “overconfidence” is because literally no one else sees their stance as that which makes sense because it’s such a vague descriptor and you’ve provided no real examples other than “I do not like their tweets”.
Mr. Maltose fucked around with this message at 11:46 on Jul 12, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 11:36
|
|
|
Razorwired posted:I just said they post those types of threads all the time. It's just that "Hey QTPOC nerds drop your selfies!" Or "Let's post motivational thoughts for each other! Isn't really the kind of content that makes this thread. No, I'm not saying I know them. I'm saying I repeatedly see a trend with their social media presence, and that this trend has been prevalent in everything I've seen from them. Which isn't just this thread linked here, but the frequent retweeting of their stuff by other people I follow on Twitter. (For example, Meinberg and I are mutuals, and Meinberg seems to be pretty friendly with them.) I'm grousing about someone who's offputting in the industry, which is one of the general things we do in this thread. Mr. Maltose posted:Hey Arivia, your masculinizing of this nb person of color is hella uncomfortable, and to be honest I think the reason no one is talking about your accusations of “overconfidence” is because literally no one else sees their stance as that which makes sense because it’s such a vague descriptor and you’ve provided no real examples other than “I do not like their tweets”. Pointing out a masculine tendency (and it is one) isn't denying their gender identity. And no, a lot of people have stated they see that confidence and arrogance, they're just making excuses for it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 12:10
|
|
|
Hey folks. This conversation is going to a weird place, so on-topic or no I'd like to drop it for now.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 12:14
|
|
|
I admit that I should have clarified that your word choice is very uncomfortable to me, another nonbinary person who has had their gender identity agressed against using very similar word and phrase choices but what do I know I suppose.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 12:30
|
|
|
Nuns with Guns posted:It really makes you realize how many peoples' point of reference for tabletop rpgs is only and forever D&D. And usually just the edition you started on. This sort of thing is pretty true of any entertainment property. Unless you are a really dedicated fan, you are generally not going to go deeper than the biggest and most popular layer. Baseball is a perfect example. The average baseball fan probably watches lots and lots of Major League Baseball with a small chance of a few smaller things like a local team that is easy to watch in an extremely casual way. They are extremely unlikely to know or even consider the existence of any farm team league or go watch local amateur leagues just out of the love of the sport. There is plenty of MLB baseball to engage with after all, easily enough to fulfill the average persons desire to watch a game. Being popular and being good are mostly unrelated.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 12:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 11:19 |
|
|
Lord_Hambrose posted:This sort of thing is pretty true of any entertainment property. Unless you are a really dedicated fan, you are generally not going to go deeper than the biggest and most popular layer. Baseball is a perfect example. The average baseball fan probably watches lots and lots of Major League Baseball with a small chance of a few smaller things like a local team that is easy to watch in an extremely casual way. They are extremely unlikely to know or even consider the existence of any farm team league or go watch local amateur leagues just out of the love of the sport. There is plenty of MLB baseball to engage with after all, easily enough to fulfill the average persons desire to watch a game. It's interesting that you bring up baseball for comparison. I was thinking of something like film, where yeah the majority of people don't watch much beyond mainstream superhero films and Star Wars, but smaller, independent productions are certainly more accessible thanks to the internet, streaming services, library rentals, etc. But trpgs absolutely manage to have one pervasive dominant entity that eclipses everything else much more like the MLB. In a case like this though: It stings a lot more when the dominant industry leader with a notable spotty record on such representation (and treatment of individuals) is handed credit for work that smaller companies and indie creators did first, more frequently, and often better for decades.
|
|
#
?
Jul 12, 2019 12:58
|
|